before you all yell at me, I wave the white surrender flag. Maui and I are
going to sign up for doggy classes today or tomorrow. they start feb 9. in
the meantime, I have some questions.

I just realized that Maui is only listening to me (for the leave it and come
command) when I have treats. Is this not a dominance issue then? or is it
still that too? thanks.

also, how long after a trick is introduced should treats be ended? I was
using treats (first his regular food when he was younger and now some
training bits) initally to teach him a trick. for example, I would say
"shake" and then show him what I mean by grabbing his paw. After that, I
would say "good shake" while giving him a treat. after a short time, I
didn't need to grab his paw, he knew what I wanted him to do. I still used
treats for a little bit. Now, he has know the shake command for at least 3
months. he does it with and without treats now. for the "leave it" and
"come" commend, he still requires treats to do it. I started teaching
"leave it" from day one but he has too many opportunites to get a ton of
things that aren't his (my nephews toys are always covering the floor). we
use the trade technique with it plus treats. for example, if I have a treat
nearby, he gets a treat for leaving it. if I don't have a treat, then he
gets a trade with the leave it command. is this confusing him? should I
discontinue treats all together and only use the trade technique? thanks
for any help.

In article , MauiJNP wrote:
I just realized that Maui is only listening to me (for the leave it and come
command) when I have treats. Is this not a dominance issue then? or is it
still that too? thanks.

I would give serious thought to temporarily expunging the
word "dominance" from your vocabulary and instead thinking
about things like "how do I get my dog to pay more attention
to me?"

I tend to be overly generous with treats while training,
too, and it's a bad habit that slows down the process rather
than speeding it up. It's another reason to take classes
and work with a trainer - another set of eyes can help
identify problems like this. However, pretty much any book
on clicker training or, more broadly, on conditioned
learning discusses how to put rewards on a schedule. I'm
particularly fond of "How Dogs Learn," by Burch and Bailey.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Let us develop a kind of dangerous unselfishness -- ML King

"MauiJNP" wrote in message
...
before you all yell at me, I wave the white surrender flag. Maui and I
are going to sign up for doggy classes today or tomorrow. they start feb
9. in the meantime, I have some questions.

I just realized that Maui is only listening to me (for the leave it and
come command) when I have treats. Is this not a dominance issue then? or
is it still that too? thanks.

also, how long after a trick is introduced should treats be ended? I was
using treats (first his regular food when he was younger and now some
training bits) initally to teach him a trick. for example, I would say
"shake" and then show him what I mean by grabbing his paw. After that, I
would say "good shake" while giving him a treat. after a short time, I
didn't need to grab his paw, he knew what I wanted him to do. I still
used treats for a little bit. Now, he has know the shake command for at
least 3 months. he does it with and without treats now. for the "leave
it" and "come" commend, he still requires treats to do it. I started
teaching "leave it" from day one but he has too many opportunites to get
a ton of things that aren't his (my nephews toys are always covering the
floor). we use the trade technique with it plus treats. for example, if
I have a treat nearby, he gets a treat for leaving it. if I don't have a
treat, then he gets a trade with the leave it command. is this confusing
him? should I discontinue treats all together and only use the trade
technique? thanks for any help.

I am currently reading the book "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson, and from
your post, I am guessing that her book might help you a lot with
understanding your dog's motivation for certain behaviors.

--Jodi

MauiJNP wrote:
before you all yell at me, I wave the white surrender flag. Maui and I are
going to sign up for doggy classes today or tomorrow. they start feb 9.

Hurray! Hope you both have a great time.

I just realized that Maui is only listening to me (for the leave it and come
command) when I have treats. Is this not a dominance issue then? or is it
still that too? thanks.

Nope, not dominance. At least, not the way you've explained it below.

also, how long after a trick is introduced should treats be ended?

Ended? Maybe never. Phased to a trickle? As soon as possible.

I was
using treats (first his regular food when he was younger and now some
training bits) initally to teach him a trick. for example, I would say
"shake" and then show him what I mean by grabbing his paw. After that, I
would say "good shake" while giving him a treat. after a short time, I
didn't need to grab his paw, he knew what I wanted him to do. I still used
treats for a little bit. Now, he has know the shake command for at least 3
months. he does it with and without treats now. for the "leave it" and
"come" commend, he still requires treats to do it.

Well, let's consider the differences between "shake" and "come" or
"leave it". "Shake" is a pretty well-defined behavior that is elicited
partly from the command and partly from the "picture" (you don't say
specifically, but if you offer your hand I suspect he'll "shake" even
without a verbal command, yes?). "Come" and "leave it", as you've
described using them, happen in different environments without a clear
visual cue.

IOW, if you offer your hand, it's probably "shake". But "come" or
"leave it" don't have a consistent set of circumstance (to the dog,
anyway) that provide clues to what's probably the right response. Does
that make sense? Add to that the likelihood of using "come" or "leave
it" when your dog is focusing on something completely NOT you, and you
can see why it might take a little more time to phase out the treats.

Now, the other thing about using treats is teaching the dog that
sometimes cookies are clearly visible and will be given for compliance,
sometimes cookies are not clearly visible and yet still magically appear
when needed, and sometimes cookies are somewhere other than on the human
and their arrival is somewhat delayed. And sometimes, cookies just
don't happen. To make treats a "see it, get it / don't see it, don't
get it" proposition sets up a situation where many dogs think the only
sensible time to comply to a command is when they can see the reward
ahead of time.

snip for example, if I have a treat
nearby, he gets a treat for leaving it. if I don't have a treat, then he
gets a trade with the leave it command.

So, if he hears the command, he knows it's "no treat"? Unless you're
"trading up" (trading something *marvelous* for something so-so)
frequently with the command, you've given your dog a clear-cut sign that
the verbal "leave it" means "no cookie for you, bubba". Not much
incentive to obey in that, is there?

--
Mary H. and the Ames National Zoo:
Raise A Fund, ANZ Babylon Ranger, ANZ MarmaDUKE, and Rotund Rhia

MauiJNP said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

I just realized that Maui is only listening to me (for the
leave it and come command) when I have treats. Is this not
a dominance issue then? or is it still that too?

It's good that you're going to a trainer, I hope they'll be able
to explain the proper terms to you.

As to the food: The reason a dog learns to come to you is
because you're way more interesting that whatever he's doing
when you want him to come. Right now, the treat is the sole
reason he's paying attention to you.

And no, he's *not* listening to you on the "leave it" or the
"come". From your descriptions, it sounds as if Maui is coming
for the treat and obeying your "leave it" because you're
offering something better in exchange. Don't get me wrong, what
you're doing is a good way to begin, you just have to start to
distance the treat from his response.

If he's coming reliably when lured/baited, the next step is turn
the bribe into a reward; that is, when he responds to "come",
reward him with a treat you've kept out of sight. If he even
turns his head to look at you, reward him with a "good boy". If
he doesn't come at all, try luring him with a toy (or something
else that he considers lower value than the treat). If he
comes, give him the higher valued reward (the treat).

*Short* training sessions 'cause he's still a puppy. And don't
worry too much about progressing past the "bribing him to come"
point, not with hands-on training coming up in a week or so.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Melinda Shore" wrote in message
...
In article , MauiJNP
wrote:
I just realized that Maui is only listening to me (for the leave it and
come
command) when I have treats. Is this not a dominance issue then? or is
it
still that too? thanks.

I would give serious thought to temporarily expunging the
word "dominance" from your vocabulary and instead thinking
about things like "how do I get my dog to pay more attention
to me?"

I tend to be overly generous with treats while training,
too, and it's a bad habit that slows down the process rather
than speeding it up. It's another reason to take classes
and work with a trainer - another set of eyes can help
identify problems like this. However, pretty much any book
on clicker training or, more broadly, on conditioned
learning discusses how to put rewards on a schedule. I'm
particularly fond of "How Dogs Learn," by Burch and Bailey.
--

thanks, I will check out that book.

I am currently reading the book "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson, and
from your post, I am guessing that her book might help you a lot with
understanding your dog's motivation for certain behaviors.



thanks, will do!

"Rocky" wrote in message
...
MauiJNP said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

I just realized that Maui is only listening to me (for the
leave it and come command) when I have treats. Is this not
a dominance issue then? or is it still that too?

It's good that you're going to a trainer, I hope they'll be able
to explain the proper terms to you.

As to the food: The reason a dog learns to come to you is
because you're way more interesting that whatever he's doing
when you want him to come. Right now, the treat is the sole
reason he's paying attention to you.

And no, he's *not* listening to you on the "leave it" or the
"come". From your descriptions, it sounds as if Maui is coming
for the treat and obeying your "leave it" because you're
offering something better in exchange. Don't get me wrong, what
you're doing is a good way to begin, you just have to start to
distance the treat from his response.

If he's coming reliably when lured/baited, the next step is turn
the bribe into a reward; that is, when he responds to "come",
reward him with a treat you've kept out of sight. If he even
turns his head to look at you, reward him with a "good boy". If
he doesn't come at all, try luring him with a toy (or something
else that he considers lower value than the treat). If he
comes, give him the higher valued reward (the treat).

*Short* training sessions 'cause he's still a puppy. And don't
worry too much about progressing past the "bribing him to come"
point, not with hands-on training coming up in a week or so.

--


thanks. that is all very helpful

MauiJNP wrote:
before you all yell at me, I wave the white surrender flag. Maui and I are
going to sign up for doggy classes today or tomorrow. they start feb 9. in
the meantime, I have some questions.

I just realized that Maui is only listening to me (for the leave it and come
command) when I have treats. Is this not a dominance issue then? or is it
still that too? thanks.



Hi Maui,

I don't like using treats as a method of training (I know lots of people
use treats and get results but all I'm doing is giving you a different
view). I see it when you use treats to illicit a response the dog is
motivated by the treats which I think is wrong, I want a dog to be
motivated by "me", I believe training is all about communication between
the dog and handler and that is best achieved without treats ( and to a
lesser extent even toys as even then the dogs motivation is the toy not
the handler but toys etc can easily be manipulated to your advantage).

I spent a lot of time teaching the dog to pay attention to me and
wanting and enjoying being with me.

One method I use for instance is to get the dog to run through various
things (maybe come, sit, down, stay,(walk away a bit) come, heel, sit)
then hold the dog on a sit beside me and in a very upbeat manner tell
him he's a good dog and get him excited (while still holding the sit),
the dog learns to anticipate the release and when I tell him "FREE GOOD
BOY!!!!" he bounds away very excited and happy, but it's that last bit
that has the most impact the bounding away and being happy so next time
you ask them to do the routine they get all excited and keen to work
anticipating the release. It's a bit hard to explain but it works very
well and makes the dog willing and happy to work.

Anyway it's just a thought that there are other ways of training without
using treats etc.

Paul

"Mary H Healey" wrote in message
...
MauiJNP wrote:
before you all yell at me, I wave the white surrender flag. Maui and I
are going to sign up for doggy classes today or tomorrow. they start feb
9.

Hurray! Hope you both have a great time.


me too but they said the puppy doesn't even come the first time. any idea
why?


I just realized that Maui is only listening to me (for the leave it and
come command) when I have treats. Is this not a dominance issue then?
or is it still that too? thanks.

Nope, not dominance. At least, not the way you've explained it below.

also, how long after a trick is introduced should treats be ended?

Ended? Maybe never. Phased to a trickle? As soon as possible.

I was using treats (first his regular food when he was younger and now
some training bits) initally to teach him a trick. for example, I would
say "shake" and then show him what I mean by grabbing his paw. After
that, I would say "good shake" while giving him a treat. after a short
time, I didn't need to grab his paw, he knew what I wanted him to do. I
still used treats for a little bit. Now, he has know the shake command
for at least 3 months. he does it with and without treats now. for the
"leave it" and "come" commend, he still requires treats to do it.

Well, let's consider the differences between "shake" and "come" or "leave
it". "Shake" is a pretty well-defined behavior that is elicited partly
from the command and partly from the "picture" (you don't say
specifically, but if you offer your hand I suspect he'll "shake" even
without a verbal command, yes?).

yes, he does this. he has also learned to sit down, jump and lay down
without a verbal cue.


"Come" and "leave it", as you've described using them, happen in different
environments without a clear visual cue.


yes, I see the difference.

IOW, if you offer your hand, it's probably "shake". But "come" or "leave
it" don't have a consistent set of circumstance (to the dog, anyway) that
provide clues to what's probably the right response. Does that make
sense? Add to that the likelihood of using "come" or "leave it" when your
dog is focusing on something completely NOT you, and you can see why it
might take a little more time to phase out the treats.


yeah, I imagine I'll need treats for a while yet with these tricks

Now, the other thing about using treats is teaching the dog that sometimes
cookies are clearly visible and will be given for compliance, sometimes
cookies are not clearly visible and yet still magically appear when
needed, and sometimes cookies are somewhere other than on the human and
their arrival is somewhat delayed. And sometimes, cookies just don't
happen. To make treats a "see it, get it / don't see it, don't get it"
proposition sets up a situation where many dogs think the only sensible
time to comply to a command is when they can see the reward ahead of time.

snip for example, if I have a treat
nearby, he gets a treat for leaving it. if I don't have a treat, then he
gets a trade with the leave it command.

So, if he hears the command, he knows it's "no treat"? Unless you're
"trading up" (trading something *marvelous* for something so-so)
frequently with the command, you've given your dog a clear-cut sign that
the verbal "leave it" means "no cookie for you, bubba". Not much
incentive to obey in that, is there?


well, the trade is usually for his own toys which he gets whenever he wants
(they live in a basket on the floor). he probably doesn't like the trade
too much I guess.