On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 12:46:00 GMT, "John Bennett"
wrote:

We recently obtained a 20 month 7lb male unneutered Poodle. We are leaning
away from neutering - I don't think he is much of a reproductive threat. He
is very energetic and athletic. Very well behaved and walks right beside us
with or without a leash, fine with other dogs and people. I wouldn't want
to change any of that. Is neutering likely to change the frequent marking
and will it make it less likely he would bolt out of control with a female,
in or out of heat, in the vicinity? Might we see any other personality
changes? These are my concerns. What is the current "word" on neutering?
Thanks for any info.

Neutering *may* help with marking. From what I've seen, early
neutering that is done before marking becomes a habit can prevent it
from developing into one. I've seen people rush their pups into
surgery when they first start to mark, with good results. As for once
the dog has firmly established the pattern of marking... eh, not so
good results. Sometimes. I did see a 1-1/2 year old lab go from
marking everything in sight to occasional marking after neutering.

Yes, it will definitely make him less likely to lose his mind when he
smells a female in heat (which he can do up to 5 miles away).

If he does any aggressive posturing with other males, you may see
changes there. Or not.

Neutering will not change his personality. It will just help reduce
or extinguish behaviors that are hormonally-driven. It will also
prevent him from developing prostate cancer later in life.

--
Leah Roberts, Family Dog Trainer
It's A Dog's World
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/m...age/index.html
Get Healthy, Build Your Immune System, Lose Weight
http://re-vita.net/dfrntdrums

We recently obtained a 20 month 7lb male unneutered Poodle. We are leaning
away from neutering - I don't think he is much of a reproductive threat. He
is very energetic and athletic. Very well behaved and walks right beside us
with or without a leash, fine with other dogs and people. I wouldn't want
to change any of that. Is neutering likely to change the frequent marking
and will it make it less likely he would bolt out of control with a female,
in or out of heat, in the vicinity? Might we see any other personality
changes? These are my concerns. What is the current "word" on neutering?
Thanks for any info.

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 12:46:00 GMT, "John Bennett"
wrote:

We recently obtained a 20 month 7lb male unneutered Poodle. We are leaning
away from neutering - I don't think he is much of a reproductive threat...

I wish you could see the many pickup truckloads of dogs and puppies I've
pitched into the landfill. (Others have done it before and after me.) I
believe you'd then see every dog with testicles as "a reproductive
threat."

Reproduction is only a part of the issue, but it's probably the most
important part.

I've had two Chow Chows and two Shelties neutered. The only differences
I've noticed is the disappearance of their testicles, and the associated
health risks. Please, neuter your dog.



When I die, I want to go where dogs go!

diddy wrote:
in thread : Leah Roberts
whittled the following words:



Neutering will not change his personality. It will just help reduce
or extinguish behaviors that are hormonally-driven. It will also
prevent him from developing prostate cancer later in life.


Actually .. NOT. Dogs that are neutered can still get prostate cancer.
But it's 100% guaranteed to prevent testicular cancer -post neutering.

From the Cangen list, reposted with permission. This is not an argument
against neutering, but rather information about the effects of altering
animals. Owners should make informed decisions based on actual
information, not on fuzzy science.

************
There are a number of adverse health problems that have been linked to
spay/neuter in dogs, and are documented in the veterinary research medical
literature. One will not find any mention of these adverse impacts in the
pro-spay/neuter propaganda that commonly comes from breed rescue groups,
animal rights groups, animal welfare groups, and (sadly) veterinary medical
resources aimed at the layman.

Contrary to the common claim, the risk of prostate cancer in dogs is not
reduced with neutering. Some published studies showed an increased risk of
prostate cancer in neutered male dogs [1-3]. Two of the most recent
studies show a 4 fold increased risk of prostate cancer in castrated dogs
[2,3].

The risk of osteosarcoma, a bone cancer with a far worse prognosis than
testicular cancer, doubles with spay/neuter in dogs [4]. Neutering in the
first year of a dog's life was found to be associated with an increased
lifetime risk of osteosarcoma in male and female Rotties of a factor of 3-4
[5]. [Rotties were the only breed examined in this depth, the increased
risk with spay/neuter likely affects other breeds too]

Spay/Neuter in dogs is also associated with a 3-4 fold increased risk of
hypothyroidism [6], a doubled risk of obesity [7], as well as an increased
risk of splenic [8] and cardiac hemangiosarcomas [9], diabetes (in males)
[10], fatal acute pancreatitis (in females) [11], cranial cruciate ligament
rupture [12], urinary incontinence [13,14], and geriatric cognitive
impairment (in males) [15]. These are all documented in the veterinary
medical research literature.



[1] J Vet Intern Med. 1987 Oct-Dec;1(4):183-7. The influence of
castration on the development of prostatic carcinoma in the dog. 43
cases (1978-1985). Obradovich J, Walshaw R, Goullaud E.

[2] Vet Comparative Oncology. 2003 Mar; 1(1):48. Immunohistochemical
characterization of canine prostatic carcinoma and correlation with
castration status and castration time. Sorenmo K, Goldschmidt M, Shofer
F, Goldkamp C, Ferracone J

[3] Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2002 Nov 29;197(1-2):251-5. Canine prostate
carcinoma: epidemiological evidence of an increased risk in castrated
dogs. Teske E, Naan EC, van Dijk EM, Van Garderen E, Schalken JA.

[4] Vet J. 1998 Jul;156(1):31-9. Host related risk factors for canine
osteosarcoma. Ru G, Terracini B, Glickman LT.

[5] Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2002 Nov;11(11):1434-40.
Endogenous gonadal hormone exposure and bone sarcoma risk. Cooley DM,
Beranek BC, Schlittler DL, Glickman NW, Glickman LT, Waters DJ.

[6] J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1994 Mar 1;204(5):761-7 Hypothyroidism in dogs:
66 cases (1987-1992). Panciera DL.

[7] Vet Rec. 1986 Apr 5;118(14):391-6 Study of obesity in dogs visiting
veterinary practices in the United Kingdom. Edney AT, Smith PM.

[8] J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1988 Sep 15;193(6):706-12. Epidemiologic,
clinical, pathologic, and prognostic characteristics of splenic
hemangiosarcoma and splenic hematoma in dogs: 217 cases (1985). Prymak
C, McKee LJ, Goldschmidt MH, Glickman LT.

[9] J Vet Intern Med. 1999 Mar-Apr;13(2):95-103. Cardiac tumors in
dogs: 1982-1995. Ware WA, Hopper DL.

[10] Am J Vet Res. 1982 Mar;43(3):465-70. Epizootiologic patterns of
diabetes mellitus in dogs. Marmor M, Willeberg P, Glickman LT, Priester
WA, Cypess RH, Hurvitz AI.

[11] J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1999 Jan 1;214(1):46-51. Evaluation of risk
factors for fatal acute pancreatitis in dogs. Hess RS, Kass PH, Shofer
FS, Van Winkle TJ, Washabau RJ.

[12] J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1993 Oct 1;203(7):1016-9. Epidemiology of
cranial cruciate ligament rupture in dogs. Whitehair JG, Vasseur PB,
Willits NH.

[13] J Small Anim Pract. 1998 Dec;39(12):559-66. Acquired urinary
incontinence in bitches: its incidence and relationship to neutering
practices. Thrusfield MV, Holt PE, Muirhead RH.

[14] J Reprod Fertil Suppl. 2001;57:233-6. The relationship of urinary
incontinence to early spaying in bitches. Stocklin-Gautschi NM, Hassig
M, Reichler IM, Hubler M, Arnold S.

[15] J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001 Jul 1;219(1):51-6. Effect of gonadectomy
on subsequent development of age-related cognitive impairment in dogs.
Hart BL.

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 11:11:09 -0600, diddy
wrote:

Actually .. NOT. Dogs that are neutered can still get prostate cancer.
But it's 100% guaranteed to prevent testicular cancer -post neutering.

Ah! Thanks for the distinction. However, I thought that it did
greatly reduce the chances of prostate problems (not just cancer)
also.

--
Leah Roberts, Family Dog Trainer
It's A Dog's World
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/m...age/index.html
Get Healthy, Build Your Immune System, Lose Weight
http://re-vita.net/dfrntdrums

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 17:34:36 GMT, Robin Nuttall
wrote:

urinary incontinence

Wow. This is the only increased risk I was aware of.

Do vets and vet techs *know* this stuff? That's where I got all my
info about the medical benefits/risks of spaying/neutering - from
asking questions. Phrases like "decreased incidents of prostate
cancer" were quite common in the answers.

--
Leah Roberts, Family Dog Trainer
It's A Dog's World
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/m...age/index.html
Get Healthy, Build Your Immune System, Lose Weight
http://re-vita.net/dfrntdrums

Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:


IMO, there's only one valid reason that the vast majority of dog
owners should neuter their dogs, but it's a very, very good one:

To help prevent all those unwanted pregnancies which contribute to our
HUGE pet overpopulation problem, leading to the needless KILLING of
MILLIONS of dogs each year.

If that reason alone isn't good enough to convince a responsible dog
owner to neuter his dog, it's pretty safe to say that a better one
probably doesn't exist anyway.


Agreed. I own two spayed bitches, both spayed at after 2 years of age
(Cala at 2, Viva at 4.5 years). Both have occasional incontinence issues
that didn't exist pre-spay, but I can deal with that. In bitches,
especially older intact bitches, breast cancer and pyometria are
extremely common. I got what I wanted from Viva in one litter, and I
decided that though Cala has outstanding working ability there were some
health shadows in the sire line that prevent me from wanting to breed
her. Besides which spaying means I can enter and attend any trial I want
without fear of having to withdraw because a dog goes into season
unexpectedly.

However, if I personally choose to get another male dog, I probably will
not neuter him unless there is a true need. Of course that means that I
must take the extra responsibility of making absolutely, 100% sure that
he *cannot* accidently breed. It never fails to amaze me that so many
otherwise intelligent people can't seem to keep their dogs from breeding
indiscriminately. Morons, the lot of them.

Robin Nuttall wrote:


diddy wrote:

in thread : Leah Roberts
whittled the following words:


Neutering will not change his personality. It will just help reduce
or extinguish behaviors that are hormonally-driven. It will also
prevent him from developing prostate cancer later in life.


Actually .. NOT. Dogs that are neutered can still get prostate
cancer. But it's 100% guaranteed to prevent testicular cancer -post
neutering.


From the Cangen list, reposted with permission. This is not an argument
against neutering, but rather information about the effects of altering
animals. Owners should make informed decisions based on actual
information, not on fuzzy science.

************
There are a number of adverse health problems that have been linked to
spay/neuter in dogs, and are documented in the veterinary research medical
literature. One will not find any mention of these adverse impacts in the
pro-spay/neuter propaganda that commonly comes from breed rescue groups,
animal rights groups, animal welfare groups, and (sadly) veterinary medical
resources aimed at the layman.

Contrary to the common claim, the risk of prostate cancer in dogs is not
reduced with neutering. Some published studies showed an increased risk of
prostate cancer in neutered male dogs [1-3]. Two of the most recent
studies show a 4 fold increased risk of prostate cancer in castrated dogs
[2,3].

The risk of osteosarcoma, a bone cancer with a far worse prognosis than
testicular cancer, doubles with spay/neuter in dogs [4]. Neutering in the
first year of a dog's life was found to be associated with an increased
lifetime risk of osteosarcoma in male and female Rotties of a factor of 3-4
[5]. [Rotties were the only breed examined in this depth, the increased
risk with spay/neuter likely affects other breeds too]

Spay/Neuter in dogs is also associated with a 3-4 fold increased risk of
hypothyroidism [6], a doubled risk of obesity [7], as well as an increased
risk of splenic [8] and cardiac hemangiosarcomas [9], diabetes (in males)
[10], fatal acute pancreatitis (in females) [11], cranial cruciate ligament
rupture [12], urinary incontinence [13,14], and geriatric cognitive
impairment (in males) [15]. These are all documented in the veterinary
medical research literature.



[1] J Vet Intern Med. 1987 Oct-Dec;1(4):183-7. The influence of
castration on the development of prostatic carcinoma in the dog. 43
cases (1978-1985). Obradovich J, Walshaw R, Goullaud E.

[2] Vet Comparative Oncology. 2003 Mar; 1(1):48. Immunohistochemical
characterization of canine prostatic carcinoma and correlation with
castration status and castration time. Sorenmo K, Goldschmidt M, Shofer
F, Goldkamp C, Ferracone J

[3] Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2002 Nov 29;197(1-2):251-5. Canine prostate
carcinoma: epidemiological evidence of an increased risk in castrated
dogs. Teske E, Naan EC, van Dijk EM, Van Garderen E, Schalken JA.

[4] Vet J. 1998 Jul;156(1):31-9. Host related risk factors for canine
osteosarcoma. Ru G, Terracini B, Glickman LT.

[5] Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2002 Nov;11(11):1434-40.
Endogenous gonadal hormone exposure and bone sarcoma risk. Cooley DM,
Beranek BC, Schlittler DL, Glickman NW, Glickman LT, Waters DJ.

[6] J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1994 Mar 1;204(5):761-7 Hypothyroidism in dogs:
66 cases (1987-1992). Panciera DL.

[7] Vet Rec. 1986 Apr 5;118(14):391-6 Study of obesity in dogs visiting
veterinary practices in the United Kingdom. Edney AT, Smith PM.

[8] J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1988 Sep 15;193(6):706-12. Epidemiologic,
clinical, pathologic, and prognostic characteristics of splenic
hemangiosarcoma and splenic hematoma in dogs: 217 cases (1985). Prymak
C, McKee LJ, Goldschmidt MH, Glickman LT.

[9] J Vet Intern Med. 1999 Mar-Apr;13(2):95-103. Cardiac tumors in
dogs: 1982-1995. Ware WA, Hopper DL.

[10] Am J Vet Res. 1982 Mar;43(3):465-70. Epizootiologic patterns of
diabetes mellitus in dogs. Marmor M, Willeberg P, Glickman LT, Priester
WA, Cypess RH, Hurvitz AI.

[11] J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1999 Jan 1;214(1):46-51. Evaluation of risk
factors for fatal acute pancreatitis in dogs. Hess RS, Kass PH, Shofer
FS, Van Winkle TJ, Washabau RJ.

[12] J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1993 Oct 1;203(7):1016-9. Epidemiology of
cranial cruciate ligament rupture in dogs. Whitehair JG, Vasseur PB,
Willits NH.

[13] J Small Anim Pract. 1998 Dec;39(12):559-66. Acquired urinary
incontinence in bitches: its incidence and relationship to neutering
practices. Thrusfield MV, Holt PE, Muirhead RH.

[14] J Reprod Fertil Suppl. 2001;57:233-6. The relationship of urinary
incontinence to early spaying in bitches. Stocklin-Gautschi NM, Hassig
M, Reichler IM, Hubler M, Arnold S.

[15] J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001 Jul 1;219(1):51-6. Effect of gonadectomy
on subsequent development of age-related cognitive impairment in dogs.
Hart BL.


Well, all I can say is, considering there only an increased risk of such
probelms then what about the risk to a litter of 7 or so pups that dont
have homes to go to.

I certainly appreciate the thoughtful answers to my question so far. The
consensus seems to be away from neutering except for reproductive reasons
(admittedly important). But only Leah Roberts has reported on PERSONAL
observation. Has anybody else actually observed the results of neutering?
Being a physician I appreciate the citations from peer review journals from
Mr. Nuttall. Thanks again everybody.


"John Bennett" wrote in message
...
We recently obtained a 20 month 7lb male unneutered Poodle. We are
leaning away from neutering - I don't think he is much of a reproductive
threat. He is very energetic and athletic. Very well behaved and walks
right beside us with or without a leash, fine with other dogs and people.
I wouldn't want to change any of that. Is neutering likely to change the
frequent marking and will it make it less likely he would bolt out of
control with a female, in or out of heat, in the vicinity? Might we see
any other personality changes? These are my concerns. What is the
current "word" on neutering? Thanks for any info.

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 19:26:23 GMT, "John Bennett"
wrote:

I certainly appreciate the thoughtful answers to my question so far. The
consensus seems to be away from neutering except for reproductive reasons
(admittedly important). But only Leah Roberts has reported on PERSONAL
observation. Has anybody else actually observed the results of neutering?
Being a physician I appreciate the citations from peer review journals from
Mr. Nuttall. Thanks again everybody.
^^

She, sir!