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Bad coat on dog



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 9th 05, 05:01 PM
gaubster2
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Default Bad coat on dog


diddy wrote:
I have a dog that just arrived for breeding. She's on a BARF diet,

and her
coat is harsh and staring. The owner wishes for her to stay on her

diet
regimen. Yet I'm concerned about her breedability, if her external

issues
exhibit themselves so evidently, will the puppies also get adequate
nutrition?

She's exactly what I've been looking for, and one of 5 dogs of the

breed in
the whole country with a CHIC score.
She has excellent disposition, amazing athleticsm, and she's a Dual
Champion (Norway import/American Champion), She's also titled in

advanced
obedience and has some agility titles (don't know what they are) and

just
qualified this past weekend in Gamblers (?) even though the owner has

not
worked with, or trained the dog in a year, as she was recovering from


surgery.

Her coat just sucks.

I don't feel I should mess with the diet. The owner feels strongly

enough
about it, that she's paying for, and shipping all the feed (and

vitamins)
from California, to insure she stays on the diet.

I just feel uncomfortable with breeding a dog with such a deficient

coat,
that to me, says the dog is inadequately (and long term)

nutritionally
deficit.


Diddy, I don't have any experience with breeding dogs....but as you
already know, a dog's skin and coat is a clue that the dog itself isn't
healthy "on the inside". Good luck!

  #2  
Old February 9th 05, 05:10 PM
diddy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

in thread oups.com:
"gaubster2" whittled the following words:

diddy wrote:
I have a dog that just arrived for breeding. She's on a BARF diet,

and her
coat is harsh and staring. The owner wishes for her to stay on her

diet
regimen. Yet I'm concerned about her breedability, if her external

issues
exhibit themselves so evidently, will the puppies also get adequate
nutrition?

She's exactly what I've been looking for, and one of 5 dogs of the

breed in
the whole country with a CHIC score.
She has excellent disposition, amazing athleticsm, and she's a Dual
Champion (Norway import/American Champion), She's also titled in

advanced
obedience and has some agility titles (don't know what they are) and

just
qualified this past weekend in Gamblers (?) even though the owner has

not
worked with, or trained the dog in a year, as she was recovering from


surgery.

Her coat just sucks.

I don't feel I should mess with the diet. The owner feels strongly

enough
about it, that she's paying for, and shipping all the feed (and

vitamins)
from California, to insure she stays on the diet.

I just feel uncomfortable with breeding a dog with such a deficient

coat,
that to me, says the dog is inadequately (and long term)

nutritionally
deficit.


Diddy, I don't have any experience with breeding dogs....but as you
already know, a dog's skin and coat is a clue that the dog itself isn't
healthy "on the inside". Good luck!



Well my vet says that overnutrition and super shiny coats can "burn up" a
dog and cause their kidney's to crash etc, and cause problems later.
So he says those making claims of superior nutrition based on coats may not
be all the indication of well being that people claim it is.
I used to feed a "natural diet" and I almost killed my dog, in spite of his
having a drop dead gorgeous coat. He never had quite the coat when I
switched his diet when he almost died of nutritional/environmental issues.
But Science Diet saved his life. I watched him dying before my eyes until I
switched.

But once I switched, he was switched because he was no longer ever healthy
again. So I couldn't attribute his not as wonderful (but adequate) coat to
his diet, but mor to his general state of health.

But I'm not sure what to say. The owner WILL come here and pick up her dog,
AFTER the puppies are whelped and weaned. But this is too late to show her
the difference between her dog's coat, and mine, to do something about
something being wrong.


  #3  
Old February 9th 05, 05:47 PM
diannes
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Posts: n/a
Default

diddy wrote:
I just feel uncomfortable with breeding a dog with such a deficient coat,
that to me, says the dog is inadequately (and long term) nutritionally
deficit.


I don't blame you, especially as you said in a subsequent post that
you'll be doing the whelping and rearing of the litter too... I sure
wouldn't want to take responsibility for that situation.

The only thing I can think of would be to tell the owner that she's
obviously got a dermatological problem (well, she DOES) and telling
her - not asking her - that you're going to get her worked up for
it. I suspect you've got an agreement with the owner that she'll pay
vet bills while she's in your care, right? Take her to a veterinary
dermatologist if possible - my friend who was a tech in a dermatology
clinic said that they saw dogs ALL THE TIME that had terrible problems
due to homemade diets. Therefore I would think that a dermatologist
would support you in finding and addressing any health issues this
poor girl has. If at that point the owner still refuses to follow
the vet's recommendations then I think you'd be quite justified in
refusing the breeding.

I certainly can see how you'd be torn over this issue. Let us know
how it turns out, OK?

Dianne

  #4  
Old February 9th 05, 05:58 PM
Tee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"diddy" wrote in message
...

I just feel uncomfortable with breeding a dog with such a deficient coat,
that to me, says the dog is inadequately (and long term) nutritionally
deficit.


I don't disagree that bad coat is a strong sign of serious nutritional
deficiency but I think it can just be one of those things that happens, or
not as serious an issue, as well. What if the problem is only lack of
enough omega acids? What if the dog's diet & overall nutritonal health is
good but for some reason there's just a dry coat or skin issue requiring a
supplement? IOW it may not be as serious a fault to avoid breeding so much
as something a little extra the dog could use. Like people, some have very
dry skin, some very oily skin, while most are considered normal.

My recently departed Min. Dachshund developed a dry coat mid-life. Several
years later she developed what's been labeled as staph dermatitis which is
something she inherited but as it didn't show up in the dam or my dog until
late in life it was an unknown. Anyway, the dry coat is thought to have
been independent of the skin condition. Adding liquid fish oil (salmon to
be exact) worked miracles on both coat & skin condition. It seemed she was
just deficient in omega acids and/or that she required a little more than
most dogs do.

I don't know that the owner's would object to adding a little fish oil
supplement as there's certainly no harm in doing so and it doesn't really
alter her diet the way changing food would.

--
Tara


  #5  
Old February 9th 05, 06:27 PM
diddy
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Posts: n/a
Default

in thread :
(diannes) whittled the following words:

diddy wrote:
I just feel uncomfortable with breeding a dog with such a deficient
coat, that to me, says the dog is inadequately (and long term)
nutritionally deficit.


I don't blame you, especially as you said in a subsequent post that
you'll be doing the whelping and rearing of the litter too... I sure
wouldn't want to take responsibility for that situation.

The only thing I can think of would be to tell the owner that she's
obviously got a dermatological problem (well, she DOES) and telling
her - not asking her - that you're going to get her worked up for
it. I suspect you've got an agreement with the owner that she'll pay
vet bills while she's in your care, right? Take her to a veterinary
dermatologist if possible - my friend who was a tech in a dermatology
clinic said that they saw dogs ALL THE TIME that had terrible problems
due to homemade diets.


It's a commercial home made diet. She just shipped me 6 months worth.

I just wrote to her about it. My posts here were a courage buildup to
adress this to her.

I sense this is a long term thing, and she probably never noticed.

The skin seems healthy, it's the coat that's breaking off and staring.
Waiting to hear what she says to my observations

Therefore I would think that a dermatologist
would support you in finding and addressing any health issues this
poor girl has. If at that point the owner still refuses to follow
the vet's recommendations then I think you'd be quite justified in
refusing the breeding.


The breeding is an artificial frozen semen breeding to my dead dog, Danny.
We tried this last summer in California (The day he died) and the breeding
didn't take.
This is the second time around, and she was sent here to my
Theriogenologist, and I get to keep a puppy.
I've looked for the right bitch for this breeding for 9 years.. and this
one is it.
Not many breeders will lease you a bitch, especially one with her
qualifications and allow you to do the manipulations it requires, including
surgical insemination, for such a chancey breeding.

I certainly can see how you'd be torn over this issue. Let us know
how it turns out, OK?

Dianne



  #6  
Old February 9th 05, 06:29 PM
diddy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

in thread : "Tee"
whittled the following words:

"diddy" wrote in message
...

I just feel uncomfortable with breeding a dog with such a deficient
coat, that to me, says the dog is inadequately (and long term)
nutritionally deficit.


I don't disagree that bad coat is a strong sign of serious nutritional
deficiency but I think it can just be one of those things that
happens, or not as serious an issue, as well. What if the problem is
only lack of enough omega acids? What if the dog's diet & overall
nutritonal health is good but for some reason there's just a dry coat
or skin issue requiring a supplement? IOW it may not be as serious a
fault to avoid breeding so much as something a little extra the dog
could use. Like people, some have very dry skin, some very oily skin,
while most are considered normal.

My recently departed Min. Dachshund developed a dry coat mid-life.
Several years later she developed what's been labeled as staph
dermatitis which is something she inherited but as it didn't show up
in the dam or my dog until late in life it was an unknown. Anyway,
the dry coat is thought to have been independent of the skin
condition. Adding liquid fish oil (salmon to be exact) worked
miracles on both coat & skin condition. It seemed she was just
deficient in omega acids and/or that she required a little more than
most dogs do.

I don't know that the owner's would object to adding a little fish oil
supplement as there's certainly no harm in doing so and it doesn't
really alter her diet the way changing food would.


I just looked at all the vitamins she just got in the mail to offset the
raw dietary insufficiencies... and fish oils are not there. I'll suggest
it. Thanks

  #7  
Old February 9th 05, 07:30 PM
Robin Nuttall
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



diddy wrote:


Her coat just sucks.


There two important questions to ask yourself here.

1. Is the bad coat genetic or environmental.

2. If the bad coat is environmental (caused by poor diet), will the poor
diet also affect the viability of the puppies.

If the bad coat isn't genetic, then breeding her really won't affect the
coat of the puppies *unless* she's so unhealthy that she has trouble
carrying, whelping, and taking care of a normal litter.

If the bad coat is genetic, you're looking at a lifetime of PITA coat
stuff in your new dog. You know it's super that this dog has a CHIC
number. But whatever the breed, genetic testing doesn't rule out the
pesky everyday inherited stuff that makes a dog difficult to deal with.
Bad coat is a biggie, faulty immune system is another. You end up with a
dog who's OFA Excellent blah, blah, blah but who is always into the vet
with one thing or another--a dog that's just not hardy, a dog you have
to feed a special diet to.


I don't feel I should mess with the diet. The owner feels strongly enough
about it, that she's paying for, and shipping all the feed (and vitamins)
from California, to insure she stays on the diet.


Okay, then your decision is whether or not you want to do anything about
it, and whether you still want to keep a puppy.

I just feel uncomfortable with breeding a dog with such a deficient coat,
that to me, says the dog is inadequately (and long term) nutritionally
deficit.


You could be right. I don't agree with your vet by the way. Certainly
coat is not the ONLY indicator of health, but I don't think we
"overburn" our dogs and that a dog with good nutrition will have a bad
coat, which is what he seems to imply. I do think good coat is genetic
*and* environmental. The tendency for a thin, patchy, dry coat is
heritable, but any coat can be made bad with a diet deficiency, and to
me some of the BARF diets are the worst. I know way too many BARF dogs
who just plain look unthrifty--bad coat, bad muscle, etc. I don't
understand how their owners don't see it.


  #8  
Old February 9th 05, 08:37 PM
Suja
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Default

Robin Nuttall wrote:

I know way too many BARF dogs
who just plain look unthrifty--bad coat, bad muscle, etc. I don't
understand how their owners don't see it.


Geez Robin, if the dog's on an "all natural" RMB diet, it couldn't
possibly have anything wrong with it now, could it? What's the matter
with you, haven't you heard that a raw diet cures all that ails a dog?

Rant
On the Dane board I visit, there are sooo many people asking one day
'So, what's this raw feeding all about?', and going 'I'm ready to switch
my dog to raw, how do I do it?' the following day. Unfortunately, the
people who recommend that they slow down, take the time to read and
study are in the minority. Off they go with the 'Start by feeding
chicken backs/quarters ....'
/Rant

Pretty scary.

Suja
  #9  
Old February 9th 05, 09:17 PM
diannes
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Posts: n/a
Default

diddy wrote:

The breeding is an artificial frozen semen breeding to my dead dog, Danny.
We tried this last summer in California (The day he died) and the breeding
didn't take.


Ah, sh*t.... that makes things even harder, then :-(.

This is the second time around, and she was sent here to my
Theriogenologist, and I get to keep a puppy.


Is it Hutch, by any chance? I know you're in Ohio.

I've looked for the right bitch for this breeding for 9 years.. and this
one is it.
Not many breeders will lease you a bitch, especially one with her
qualifications and allow you to do the manipulations it requires, including
surgical insemination, for such a chancey breeding.


You're right - opportunities to lease a good bitch are few and
far between. Still, frozen semen is more precious than anything
and you don't want to waste it on a bitch that may have any
underlying problems that might interfere with conceiving and
carrying a litter.

I do hope the owner is receptive to your concerns and that this
all works out for you.

Dianne

 




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