On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:12:53 +0000 (UTC), ceb
wrote:

It was pretty funny. I gave Zoe's former bone to Queenie, and they both
settled in for another chew. Queenie could care less, she will share
anything and would have happily given up the bone to Zoe if Zoe snatched
it from her, but I thought Zoe's way of getting what she wanted was funny
and clever (not to mention nonconfrontational).

Absolutely! She had a clear choice between using physical
intimidation and using her brain. I'd be thrilled with her decision.

However... knowing their history, hopefully you were on red alert
watching for body language signals as soon as Zoe approached Queenie.
This is where Rugaas' "Calming Signals" would be invaluable for you.

I can't remember the details about the incident. How long did the
fight go on? What injuries were incurred? Did both engage in
fighting, or was one trying to get away? What did you have to do to
break it up? (You got bitten, right?)

--
Leah Roberts, Family Dog Trainer
It's A Dog's World
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/m...age/index.html
Get Healthy, Build Your Immune System, Lose Weight
http://re-vita.net/dfrntdrums

Greetings:

This morning we had new Nylabones at our house, one for each dog. Zoe and
Queenie both happily accepted theirs and settled down for a chew. After a
while, Zoe got up and walked over to Queenie, who looked at her with an
extremely goofy "what's up?" face complete with airplane ears (must get
pictures). Then Zoe walked over to the window and did a fake bark -- I
recognize this bark as pretending there's something going on outside, she
uses it in games with me -- naturally Queenie got up to look out the
window too. Both dogs stood there a few seconds, and then (as I expected)
Zoe walked over and picked up Queenie's bone and started chewing it.

It was pretty funny. I gave Zoe's former bone to Queenie, and they both
settled in for another chew. Queenie could care less, she will share
anything and would have happily given up the bone to Zoe if Zoe snatched
it from her, but I thought Zoe's way of getting what she wanted was funny
and clever (not to mention nonconfrontational).

In other news, Queenie has at last come up with a promising strategy for
winning over the cat, Rosalie. Her earlier strategies of barking and
whining were ineffective (not to mention discouraged by me). Now she is
lying down calmly a few feet away from Rosalie. In return, Rosalie is
doing some test sauntering which has gone well. I am still separating
them when I am not there to observe, but I think things are going very
well considering Queenie has only been with us for 3 weeks.

--Catherine
& Zoe & Queenie, black dogs, one medium, one large
& Rosalie the calico cat

ceb wrote:

it from her, but I thought Zoe's way of getting what she wanted was funny
and clever (not to mention nonconfrontational).

When Pan came to live with us, she did that to Khan. Exactly once.
Now, when she does her fake bark, he either ignores it or puts himself
between chewie and her so she can't get back to it before he does.

Unfortunately for him, there are two paths to get to where he sits and
chews, and he can only block off one path at a time. Unfortunatley for
her, he is smart enough to block off the shorter path, she rarely wins
the footrace to the chewie.

Suja

Suja wrote in
news:fZ5Pd.86323$Tf5.3339@lakeread03:

ceb wrote:

it from her, but I thought Zoe's way of getting what she wanted was
funny and clever (not to mention nonconfrontational).

When Pan came to live with us, she did that to Khan. Exactly once.
Now, when she does her fake bark, he either ignores it or puts himself
between chewie and her so she can't get back to it before he does.

Unfortunately for him, there are two paths to get to where he sits and
chews, and he can only block off one path at a time. Unfortunatley
for her, he is smart enough to block off the shorter path, she rarely
wins the footrace to the chewie.

How funny!

I doubt that Queenie will catch on as quickly as Khan... for one thing, a
fake bark could indicate a willingness to play, which she's always up
for! Plus she's more the type that will *try* to get the other dog to
take her toy, so they can play.

I wonder if most dogs have a fake bark? Haven't heard one from Queenie
yet, although she has a cute "play with me" bark that she tries on Zoe at
times.

--Catherine
& Zoe & Queenie

Leah Roberts wrote in
:

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:12:53 +0000 (UTC), ceb
wrote:

It was pretty funny. I gave Zoe's former bone to Queenie, and they
both settled in for another chew. Queenie could care less, she will
share anything and would have happily given up the bone to Zoe if Zoe
snatched it from her, but I thought Zoe's way of getting what she
wanted was funny and clever (not to mention nonconfrontational).

Absolutely! She had a clear choice between using physical
intimidation and using her brain. I'd be thrilled with her decision.

However... knowing their history, hopefully you were on red alert
watching for body language signals as soon as Zoe approached Queenie.

I was watching, but I knew Zoe was just thinking of taking the nylabone,
and I knew Queenie wouldn't care even if it was done in a rude way. Hmmm,
maybe I shouldn't have felt so sure of this, considering that Zoe
obviously felt she had to be more subtle about it.

This is where Rugaas' "Calming Signals" would be invaluable for you.

I will check it out.


I can't remember the details about the incident. How long did the
fight go on?

It happened fast, and was over fast.

What injuries were incurred?

Neither dog was hurt but I was bitten -- it was more like my hand got in
the way of their teeth, than an intentional bite.

Did both engage in
fighting, or was one trying to get away?

Zoe growled and snapped, and Queenie engaged rather than backing off --
so they were both going at each other and I was trying to pull them
apart.

What did you have to do to
break it up? (You got bitten, right?)


I went for their collars, which I now know not to do. Somehow when I got
hurt, the whole thing stopped, maybe because I let out some god-awful
noise, which I should have done in the first place... then I ushered them
into separate rooms and walked around muttering "I don't know what to do,
I don't know what to do" -- I was in shock a bit -- after phone calls to
a friend (who told me what to do), my dr, and the dog trainer, I let each
dog out of their rooms -- they both apologized to me and each other (this
apologetic behavior could not have been clearer) and we haven't had
anything like this since.

--Catherine
& Zoe & Queenie

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:30:00 +0000 (UTC), ceb
wrote:

they both apologized to me and each other (this
apologetic behavior could not have been clearer) and we haven't had
anything like this since.

And you may not. How old are these two again? Which one came into
the house first? How long has the other one been with you?

Some bites are unintentional. My chi x pug and my rough collie used
to have it out once in a while. They never injured each other. But
once my bil tried to break it up, and got bitten by the collie. That
fight was over in an instant, as soon as both dogs recognized a human
involved (and the collie was mortified). They are well aware of where
their mouths are in relation to the other dog, which is their focus.
A hand or leg that suddenly gets in the way may just be in the wrong
place at the wrong time.

So if you were grabbing for the collar just when the other dog was
feinting at his opponent's neck, it could have been an accident.

But it's a different issue if the dog who bit you was the one whose
collar you grabbed. This is a common way of getting bitten (I believe
I read 30% of all reported bites). Though I don't think the first
scenario necessarily reflects on a dog's level of bite inhibition,
this does.

I have my students play "gotcha!" with young puppies. Sneak up behind
them, grab them by the collar (and/or scoop them into the air) and cry
"Gotcha," immediately followed by treats, praise, and cuddling. Get
them used to being grabbed. Especially if they're going to be exposed
to young children, this helps prevent bites that result from getting
startled out of their wits by a sudden grab.

For an older dog, depending on his level of sensitivity to getting
startled, I might start by simply touching the collar and being less
vocally exuberant - IOW, making sure the exercise is not very
startling. Also for a fearful puppy. It should be fun for the dog,
not frightening.

I have personal experience with the success of this exercise. I once
had a relatively small 5 month old GSD mix in class whose mom had
already been given the "some dogs aren't dog park candidates" spiel
from earlier observations of her body language during play. She tried
to bully another pup, the pup told her to cut it out, and she said
"Make me!" and dove at the other pup like a kamikaze pilot. I spent
play-time in this particular class hovering over her anyway, so all I
had to do was scoop her up into my arms. Going into it, I said to
myself, self, you're going to get bitten. :} But it was the easiest
way to make sure the other *pup* didn't get bitten, which was my
priority.

As expected, as soon as I lifted her into the air she swung her head
with bared teeth and a snarl... saw that the objective of her jaws was
a human arm, and immediately chilled. I was quite thrilled to see
this, since I had some concerns about her temper in general, not just
with other dogs, and mentioned it to her mom. "Yes," she said, "We've
been doing a lot of Gotcha."

Actually, I wonder what ever happened to that pup. Her owner loved
her to pieces, and showed fairly good leadership skills. But she was
a first-time dog owner, middle-aged with back problems, and this was
*not* a first-timer's dog. She was a strong, pushy little brat with a
quick temper. I only hope she followed my recommendation to find
somebody to work with her one-on-one.

--
Leah Roberts, Family Dog Trainer
It's A Dog's World
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/m...age/index.html
Get Healthy, Build Your Immune System, Lose Weight
http://re-vita.net/dfrntdrums

"Leah Roberts" wrote in message
...
Actually, I wonder what ever happened to that pup. Her owner loved
her to pieces, and showed fairly good leadership skills. But she was
a first-time dog owner, middle-aged with back problems, and this was
*not* a first-timer's dog.

i hear this a lot. pit bulls, for example, are "not first-timers' dogs".
ok, well, what dogs are? Border Collies? i wouldn't think so, but they
seem popular. same with GSDs. Labs? maybe, not my first pick though.

should everyone start with poodles?

-kelly

culprit said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

should everyone start with poodles?

No way. Poodles are one of the more dog-aggressive breeds that
I run into.

IMO, the best bet for first time owners is to go to the shelter
and find something compatible.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" wrote in message
...

IMO, the best bet for first time owners is to go to the shelter
and find something compatible.

i did that and wound up with a wussy diva who should have her "pit bull"
title revoked. :-)

-kelly

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:47:11 -0800, "culprit"
wrote:

i hear this a lot. pit bulls, for example, are "not first-timers' dogs".
ok, well, what dogs are? Border Collies? i wouldn't think so, but they
seem popular. same with GSDs. Labs? maybe, not my first pick though.

Y'know, this is a good question! Let me think...

Oh dear - no, not not not border collies. Or GSDs. Both of those
breeds are too "intense." They can tend to be reactive and hinky.
Plus both the average bc and GSD can outsmart even an experienced
owner - and you can add poodles to that list too. :}

I think that good-natured, biddable, and even-tempered should be key
words for a newbie's dog. And that's more an "individual dog" thing
than a "breed" thing. But in general, retrievers fit the bill. They
can be mouthy and pushy, but they generally come out of the box as
happy, friendly, confident pups. Depending on the individual dog,
labs can be a bit much - most of the real problem shark-jaw puppy
nippers I've run into have been labs.

I wouldn't recommend terriers in general, because of their tendency to
be "feisty." Hounds can be tricky because of how easily you can lose
them to a scent (or in the case of sighthounds, a small running
animal). However, basset hounds seem to be pretty easy dogs to manage
in general. I've had several first-time owners with beagles in
classes, and they do well (though IMO young beagles tend to be a bit
bratty :}.

As for small dogs... maybe pugs? Doxies may be too strong-willed for
a first time owner, and both they and bichons are notoriously hard to
housetrain. Boston terriers? Other than the tendency to be jumping
beans, they seem to be easy-going and biddable in general. Yorkies
may not be a bad choice, even though they're terriers - they're hardy
little dogs that are generally good-natured.

I don't know. Frankly, I think a first-time owner would probably do
best by going to a shelter and picking out an older, friendly,
confident, calm mutt. :}

--
Leah Roberts, Family Dog Trainer
It's A Dog's World
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/m...age/index.html
Get Healthy, Build Your Immune System, Lose Weight
http://re-vita.net/dfrntdrums