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Which dogs would you cull?



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 11th 05, 04:37 PM
bethgsd
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Default Which dogs would you cull?

Assuming that physical homogeneity is important for recognizing a
breed,
which of these Border Collies would you eliminate from your breeding
program purely on the basis of looks?


I could never breed purely for looks. Though I did notice that a
couple of pictures had that fluffly black and white look. Too cool of
pictures. I love the tricolours for some reason.

Beth

  #2  
Old March 11th 05, 04:58 PM
Robin Nuttall
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Melanie L Chang wrote:
Assuming that physical homogeneity is important for recognizing a breed,
which of these Border Collies would you eliminate from your breeding
program purely on the basis of looks?


I don't eliminate dogs from breeding programs based purely on the basis
of looks.

http://www.caninecunning.com/SNF05.htm

These photos are from the Scottish Nursery Finals -- the best young dogs
in the country that many of the best dogs come from.

Even though they all look different, does anyone have difficulty
recognizing them for what they are?


They actually don't look very different at all to me. They all,
strikingly, look like BCs. I would never have any trouble recognizing
any of them as a purebred BC within 2 seconds if I met them on the
street a thousand miles from any sheep. They are markedly homozygous
already.

Of all the pictures you've ever shown of BCs that you say look
"different," I've always been able to easily tell they are BCs, which
tells me there's a lot more breed type than you might think. Coat length
and color really doesn't make a dog different. Body
conformation/structure, posture, movement, head, tail carriage, and
openly expressed personality traits do. I occasionally have difficulty
differentiating a badly bred Aussie with a tail from a BC, but beyond
that I have very little difficulty differentiating BCs from any other breed.

  #3  
Old March 11th 05, 05:53 PM
bethgsd
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Robin wrote:

Of all the pictures you've ever shown of BCs that you say look
"different," I've always been able to easily tell they are BCs, which
tells me there's a lot more breed type than you might think. Coat
length
and color really doesn't make a dog different. Body
conformation/structure, posture, movement, head, tail carriage, and
openly expressed personality traits do. I occasionally have difficulty
differentiating a badly bred Aussie with a tail from a BC, but beyond
that I have very little difficulty differentiating BCs from any other
breed


I wonder if some of this comes from living in a highly urban area. I
know I'm not going to phrase this correctly but I'll try. Maybe what
Melanie sees are her dogs and then the highly stylized breed ring dogs.
That would, to me at least, make seem like a much more obvious
difference. The first time I saw an American show line GSD I about
croaked. It looked nothing like my dog or the pictures in all of my
books. I feel that way about some of the border collies I see in the
group ring on TV. They don't look anything like the dogs my friends
own and the dogs I see at herding trials and demos. And then to
totally contradict myself, a friend has an ~8 month old bc puppy.
Working parents and this puppy could hold his own in the breedring and
may very well get the chance.
How is that for long and rambling?

Beth

  #4  
Old March 11th 05, 06:56 PM
Christy
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"Melanie L Chang" wrote in message
...
Assuming that physical homogeneity is important for recognizing a breed,
which of these Border Collies would you eliminate from your breeding
program purely on the basis of looks?

http://www.caninecunning.com/SNF05.htm

These photos are from the Scottish Nursery Finals -- the best young dogs
in the country that many of the best dogs come from.

Even though they all look different, does anyone have difficulty
recognizing them for what they are?


J Robinson's Cap. Looks like a Barbie Collie. Oh, and Floss has funny ears.

These look just like BCs to me - I could point out a lookalike for every one
at most any agility event out here. I don't get the point!?!

Christy



  #5  
Old March 11th 05, 07:06 PM
Rocky
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Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.breeds:

Assuming that physical homogeneity is important for
recognizing a breed, which of these Border Collies would
you eliminate from your breeding program purely on the
basis of looks?


The really big black and white fluffy ones - BCs shouldn't have
horns.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
  #6  
Old March 11th 05, 07:23 PM
Robin Nuttall
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bethgsd wrote:
Robin wrote:

Of all the pictures you've ever shown of BCs that you say look
"different," I've always been able to easily tell they are BCs, which
tells me there's a lot more breed type than you might think. Coat
length
and color really doesn't make a dog different. Body
conformation/structure, posture, movement, head, tail carriage, and
openly expressed personality traits do. I occasionally have difficulty
differentiating a badly bred Aussie with a tail from a BC, but beyond
that I have very little difficulty differentiating BCs from any other
breed


I wonder if some of this comes from living in a highly urban area.


Who lives in a highly urban area? While I don't attend sheepdog trials,
I also don't live in a highly urban area. The most commonly seen BCs
around here are pets bought from stockdog people, often with temperament
and/or health problems. But they're very similar in type to the dogs I
see at agility trials.

I
know I'm not going to phrase this correctly but I'll try. Maybe what
Melanie sees are her dogs and then the highly stylized breed ring dogs.


Yeah, but I don't have any trouble pointing to breed ring dogs and
saying "that's a BC."

That would, to me at least, make seem like a much more obvious
difference. The first time I saw an American show line GSD I about
croaked. It looked nothing like my dog or the pictures in all of my
books.


But I bet you didn't have any trouble realizing that yes, it was a BC.

I feel that way about some of the border collies I see in the
group ring on TV. They don't look anything like the dogs my friends
own and the dogs I see at herding trials and demos.


Oh it's not my cup of tea but FWIW I thought the dog in the Group at
Westminster was a better representative of working lines than some I've
seen--he had good structure and while he had a good bit of coat he
wasn't absolutely dripping in it. Had that bizarre show-BC head, but
again, still looked like a BC!

  #7  
Old March 11th 05, 07:28 PM
Robin Nuttall
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Melanie L Chang wrote:


Hey, you know, it totally warms the cockles of my heart to hear you say
that. My point (such as it was -- I really just slapped that up there for
kicks) is not that there is variation in the breed, but that dogs can look
quite different and still be considered the best of their breed. It's not
about the variation that exists, but that is considered desirable.


Melanie, how many conformation shows have you been to? How many people
do you know who have conformation dogs? Genuine question, no slamming or
hint of incompetence meant in any way. The reason I ask is that we see
this in ALL breeds--a variety of type that is still considered
desireable. My breed, which is pretty cookie-cutter compared to BCs,
still has a huge variety of type, and you see that even in the Breed and
Group ring--big dogs with loads of bone, fine dogs with less bone,
beautiful heads, ugly heads, etc. There's no such thing as any one
"perfect" dog, even when standards are tightly written. There will
always be dogs, even top dogs, that vary rather widely in type but that
are still considered desireable.


Border Collies tend to vary within parameters that allow them to be
recognizable as Border Collies even purely on sight (usually), but you
have to admit the parameters are pretty broad. The important thing to me
is that good dogs aren't eliminated from breeding programs purely on the
basis of cosmetic parameters.


Well we all certainly know where you're coming from. OTOH, some sort of
structural integrity is necessary--you can't breed on temperament alone.
Fortunately most working BCs I see have good structure, but I've seen a
few that have lousy structure. I wouldn't any more breed to that dog
that can't move efficiently than I would to the dog that's pretty but
couldn't herd a sheep if you tied him to its tail.


  #8  
Old March 11th 05, 09:45 PM
diannes
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Melanie L Chang wrote:

I don't have trouble recognizing any of those dogs as Border Collies
either, but they are still far less homogeneous than what you see winning
consistently in the breed ring.


Homogenous? :-) Here are pictures of 16 very different Briards. Find the
dog(s) that have won consistently in the breed ring.

http://www.senderobriards.com/art/remington2.jpg
http://www.dejavubriards.com/pix/flynn6.jpg
http://www.senderobriards.com/art/gillian1.jpg
http://www.briardacres.com/images/filou.jpg
http://www.quicksilverbriards.com/uploads/sly02.jpg
http://www.briardsbriards.com/Tille%20BOS%201.jpg
http://www.tabletoptelephone.com/~ka.../pring_bis.jpg
http://www.dejavubriards.com/pix/sammy.jpg
http://www.briard.com/images/Enchanted/oceecrop.jpg
http://www.dejavubriards.com/pix/louise.jpg
http://www.fairytalebriards.com/Images/Turq0205.jpg
http://www.larwass.com/coastline/pho...a_champion.jpg
http://www.fairytalebriards.com/Images/TornadoMove.jpg
http://www.briard.com/images/Enchanted/rodinfrontw2.jpg
http://www.dejavubriards.com/pix/elvis5.jpg
http://www.briardsonline.com/images/...ourneymove.jpg

Of course that's a trick question. All are AKC champions; 6 are AKC all-breed
Best in Show winners; 4 are first-degree relatives of Best in Show winners
(parent, offspring or sibling); and 2 have multiple placements in the herding
group. And homogenous, they're not. I don't think I'm the only one who can
see a heck of a lot more phenotypic variation among these dogs than among
the working BCs in your example.

JFWIW,

Dianne
  #9  
Old March 11th 05, 10:32 PM
Suja
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diannes wrote:

http://www.senderobriards.com/art/gillian1.jpg


I'm sorry, but this one ain't a Briard. I know that's what they're
calling her, but it can't be. And I don't think it is just an ear thing
either.

Suja
 




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