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#1
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Which dogs would you cull?
Assuming that physical homogeneity is important for recognizing a
breed, which of these Border Collies would you eliminate from your breeding program purely on the basis of looks? I could never breed purely for looks. Though I did notice that a couple of pictures had that fluffly black and white look. Too cool of pictures. I love the tricolours for some reason. Beth |
#2
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Melanie L Chang wrote: Assuming that physical homogeneity is important for recognizing a breed, which of these Border Collies would you eliminate from your breeding program purely on the basis of looks? I don't eliminate dogs from breeding programs based purely on the basis of looks. http://www.caninecunning.com/SNF05.htm These photos are from the Scottish Nursery Finals -- the best young dogs in the country that many of the best dogs come from. Even though they all look different, does anyone have difficulty recognizing them for what they are? They actually don't look very different at all to me. They all, strikingly, look like BCs. I would never have any trouble recognizing any of them as a purebred BC within 2 seconds if I met them on the street a thousand miles from any sheep. They are markedly homozygous already. Of all the pictures you've ever shown of BCs that you say look "different," I've always been able to easily tell they are BCs, which tells me there's a lot more breed type than you might think. Coat length and color really doesn't make a dog different. Body conformation/structure, posture, movement, head, tail carriage, and openly expressed personality traits do. I occasionally have difficulty differentiating a badly bred Aussie with a tail from a BC, but beyond that I have very little difficulty differentiating BCs from any other breed. |
#3
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Robin wrote:
Of all the pictures you've ever shown of BCs that you say look "different," I've always been able to easily tell they are BCs, which tells me there's a lot more breed type than you might think. Coat length and color really doesn't make a dog different. Body conformation/structure, posture, movement, head, tail carriage, and openly expressed personality traits do. I occasionally have difficulty differentiating a badly bred Aussie with a tail from a BC, but beyond that I have very little difficulty differentiating BCs from any other breed I wonder if some of this comes from living in a highly urban area. I know I'm not going to phrase this correctly but I'll try. Maybe what Melanie sees are her dogs and then the highly stylized breed ring dogs. That would, to me at least, make seem like a much more obvious difference. The first time I saw an American show line GSD I about croaked. It looked nothing like my dog or the pictures in all of my books. I feel that way about some of the border collies I see in the group ring on TV. They don't look anything like the dogs my friends own and the dogs I see at herding trials and demos. And then to totally contradict myself, a friend has an ~8 month old bc puppy. Working parents and this puppy could hold his own in the breedring and may very well get the chance. How is that for long and rambling? Beth |
#4
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"Melanie L Chang" wrote in message ... Assuming that physical homogeneity is important for recognizing a breed, which of these Border Collies would you eliminate from your breeding program purely on the basis of looks? http://www.caninecunning.com/SNF05.htm These photos are from the Scottish Nursery Finals -- the best young dogs in the country that many of the best dogs come from. Even though they all look different, does anyone have difficulty recognizing them for what they are? J Robinson's Cap. Looks like a Barbie Collie. Oh, and Floss has funny ears. These look just like BCs to me - I could point out a lookalike for every one at most any agility event out here. I don't get the point!?! Christy |
#5
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Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.breeds:
Assuming that physical homogeneity is important for recognizing a breed, which of these Border Collies would you eliminate from your breeding program purely on the basis of looks? The really big black and white fluffy ones - BCs shouldn't have horns. -- --Matt. Rocky's a Dog. |
#6
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bethgsd wrote: Robin wrote: Of all the pictures you've ever shown of BCs that you say look "different," I've always been able to easily tell they are BCs, which tells me there's a lot more breed type than you might think. Coat length and color really doesn't make a dog different. Body conformation/structure, posture, movement, head, tail carriage, and openly expressed personality traits do. I occasionally have difficulty differentiating a badly bred Aussie with a tail from a BC, but beyond that I have very little difficulty differentiating BCs from any other breed I wonder if some of this comes from living in a highly urban area. Who lives in a highly urban area? While I don't attend sheepdog trials, I also don't live in a highly urban area. The most commonly seen BCs around here are pets bought from stockdog people, often with temperament and/or health problems. But they're very similar in type to the dogs I see at agility trials. I know I'm not going to phrase this correctly but I'll try. Maybe what Melanie sees are her dogs and then the highly stylized breed ring dogs. Yeah, but I don't have any trouble pointing to breed ring dogs and saying "that's a BC." That would, to me at least, make seem like a much more obvious difference. The first time I saw an American show line GSD I about croaked. It looked nothing like my dog or the pictures in all of my books. But I bet you didn't have any trouble realizing that yes, it was a BC. I feel that way about some of the border collies I see in the group ring on TV. They don't look anything like the dogs my friends own and the dogs I see at herding trials and demos. Oh it's not my cup of tea but FWIW I thought the dog in the Group at Westminster was a better representative of working lines than some I've seen--he had good structure and while he had a good bit of coat he wasn't absolutely dripping in it. Had that bizarre show-BC head, but again, still looked like a BC! |
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Melanie L Chang wrote: Hey, you know, it totally warms the cockles of my heart to hear you say that. My point (such as it was -- I really just slapped that up there for kicks) is not that there is variation in the breed, but that dogs can look quite different and still be considered the best of their breed. It's not about the variation that exists, but that is considered desirable. Melanie, how many conformation shows have you been to? How many people do you know who have conformation dogs? Genuine question, no slamming or hint of incompetence meant in any way. The reason I ask is that we see this in ALL breeds--a variety of type that is still considered desireable. My breed, which is pretty cookie-cutter compared to BCs, still has a huge variety of type, and you see that even in the Breed and Group ring--big dogs with loads of bone, fine dogs with less bone, beautiful heads, ugly heads, etc. There's no such thing as any one "perfect" dog, even when standards are tightly written. There will always be dogs, even top dogs, that vary rather widely in type but that are still considered desireable. Border Collies tend to vary within parameters that allow them to be recognizable as Border Collies even purely on sight (usually), but you have to admit the parameters are pretty broad. The important thing to me is that good dogs aren't eliminated from breeding programs purely on the basis of cosmetic parameters. Well we all certainly know where you're coming from. OTOH, some sort of structural integrity is necessary--you can't breed on temperament alone. Fortunately most working BCs I see have good structure, but I've seen a few that have lousy structure. I wouldn't any more breed to that dog that can't move efficiently than I would to the dog that's pretty but couldn't herd a sheep if you tied him to its tail. |
#8
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Melanie L Chang wrote:
I don't have trouble recognizing any of those dogs as Border Collies either, but they are still far less homogeneous than what you see winning consistently in the breed ring. Homogenous? :-) Here are pictures of 16 very different Briards. Find the dog(s) that have won consistently in the breed ring. http://www.senderobriards.com/art/remington2.jpg http://www.dejavubriards.com/pix/flynn6.jpg http://www.senderobriards.com/art/gillian1.jpg http://www.briardacres.com/images/filou.jpg http://www.quicksilverbriards.com/uploads/sly02.jpg http://www.briardsbriards.com/Tille%20BOS%201.jpg http://www.tabletoptelephone.com/~ka.../pring_bis.jpg http://www.dejavubriards.com/pix/sammy.jpg http://www.briard.com/images/Enchanted/oceecrop.jpg http://www.dejavubriards.com/pix/louise.jpg http://www.fairytalebriards.com/Images/Turq0205.jpg http://www.larwass.com/coastline/pho...a_champion.jpg http://www.fairytalebriards.com/Images/TornadoMove.jpg http://www.briard.com/images/Enchanted/rodinfrontw2.jpg http://www.dejavubriards.com/pix/elvis5.jpg http://www.briardsonline.com/images/...ourneymove.jpg Of course that's a trick question. All are AKC champions; 6 are AKC all-breed Best in Show winners; 4 are first-degree relatives of Best in Show winners (parent, offspring or sibling); and 2 have multiple placements in the herding group. And homogenous, they're not. I don't think I'm the only one who can see a heck of a lot more phenotypic variation among these dogs than among the working BCs in your example. JFWIW, Dianne |
#9
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diannes wrote:
http://www.senderobriards.com/art/gillian1.jpg I'm sorry, but this one ain't a Briard. I know that's what they're calling her, but it can't be. And I don't think it is just an ear thing either. Suja |
#10
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One bright night in the middle of the day on Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:15:34
+0000 (UTC), in rec.pets.dogs.breeds (Melanie L Chang) wrote: Even though they all look different, does anyone have difficulty recognizing them for what they are? Nope. Even if they were of less traditional or even oddball color(s), there is no mistaking their breed. They all look damn good to me! *~ *~ *~ Karen C. Spammers be damned! I can't be emailed from this account! So there... "You have no power here! ...Be gone! Before somebody drops a house on you too!" |
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