If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Border Collie - biting - HELP???!!!
My husband and I bought Tess about 5 weeks ago from a kennels in
Manchester. I grew up with a border collie who was placid and lovely and very much a family pet. I wanted my children to have the same experience and so we got Tess who is now about 16 weeks. We live in a school so she is able to have freedom running over the school fields etc so exercise isnt a problem. I am concerned however that she is constantly nipping and will not sit quietly in the evenings once she has been walked, we are unable to have her with us in the lounge. Also we have a cat and Tess eats his food if she gets near it. She growls very nastily when I try to remove her from the cats food and was very growly as if she would bite when she was near the food yesterday. Today I took her to the field and she was quite wild. I should not have let her off the lead but until recently she has been relatively well-behaved. She ran at my little boy and flattened him to the floor, she then went for his arm, not in a nippy way but in a head shaking nasty way. We have 3 children who are 7 5 and 3 and I am beginning to think that I have bitten off more than I can chew. Should we persevere and try to train the dog or will she continue to be a worry around the children? Is it better to quit now so that someone else can train her. She was only officially allowed out for walks today but as we have quite a lot of private land she has had a good deal of supervised freedom already. We are attending puppy socialisation on Saturday so I shall see what happens. I guess I would just like to know would it be a good thing for us to continue when I have serious doubts or to quit now before the training starts so that Tess can have the best start in life with somebody else?. My husband Jason is very much top dog with her and all is well with him. Any advice would be appreciated, she really is a lovely dog ! Many thanks, Carol Campbell |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
"Jason" wrote in message om... My husband and I bought Tess about 5 weeks ago from a kennels in Manchester. I grew up with a border collie who was placid and lovely and very much a family pet. I wanted my children to have the same experience and so we got Tess who is now about 16 weeks. You don't expect the children to behave like adults, but seem to think a puppy to behave like an adult dog? He's being a baby and just like human babies, needs constant love and training, patience and fun games to help him develop into the adult dog you hope for in the future. Like children, many of his life lessons will come through play and he has boundless energy for play and learning. Get him to a puppy class as soon as possible... http://www.apdt.co.uk/ will help you find a good class in your area Diana & Cindy -- Cindy the weimaraner's web site: http://cindy-incidentally.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Thanks for all this advice.
In the last few days we have made sure we have had her on the lead and allowing her to run off excess energy on the school field. She seems a lot better and has even started not to pull so hard on the lead. I think the main thing is for her to know that the children are higher in the pack than her and we have had to 'train' the kids to do this. They have been more firm with her and we have made sure they feed her occasionally. Anyway things are looking up and we're going to put the effort in with her as I'm sure it will be worthwhile.... Jason & Carol "Diana" wrote in message ... "Jason" wrote in message om... My husband and I bought Tess about 5 weeks ago from a kennels in Manchester. I grew up with a border collie who was placid and lovely and very much a family pet. I wanted my children to have the same experience and so we got Tess who is now about 16 weeks. You don't expect the children to behave like adults, but seem to think a puppy to behave like an adult dog? He's being a baby and just like human babies, needs constant love and training, patience and fun games to help him develop into the adult dog you hope for in the future. Like children, many of his life lessons will come through play and he has boundless energy for play and learning. Get him to a puppy class as soon as possible... http://www.apdt.co.uk/ will help you find a good class in your area Diana & Cindy |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
"Jason" wrote in message om... [..] in the pack than her and we have had to 'train' the kids to do this. They have been more firm with her and we have made sure they feed her occasionally. Anyway things are looking up and we're going to put the effort in with her as I'm sure it will be worthwhile.... Not so much that children are 'higher in the pack' cos children aren't 'in the pack' - they are a part of life and just as you taught your children to respond to grown ups with respect, you must teach both your children and your pup to respect each other... not easy, both will try and push the boundaries, but then you chose to mix dogs & kids vbg Border Collies are natural herders - they've been selectively bred over hundreds of years for this instinct and many people struggle to control this instinct with regards to children. For that reason, they tend not to be recommended for situations where their are a lot of children, esp. for a novice owner, but 'good manners' training + mutual respect for each others capabilities (eg he's the great thinker/tinker g and you are the master of the fridge and finder of all wonderous delights) will go a long way. Still can't recommend classes highly enuff, + drop the Jan Fernell books and go seek the 'Culture Clash' g Diana & Cindy -- Cindy the weimaraner's web site: http://cindy-incidentally.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:25:56 +0100, "Diana"
wrote: "Jason" wrote in message . com... [..] in the pack than her and we have had to 'train' the kids to do this. They have been more firm with her and we have made sure they feed her occasionally. Anyway things are looking up and we're going to put the effort in with her as I'm sure it will be worthwhile.... Not so much that children are 'higher in the pack' cos children aren't 'in the pack' - they are a part of life I disagree with this. In my experience, dogs will always assume that kids in the house are part of the pack, and I want them to as that means they are family and den-mates. Their concept of family is pack. I want everyone in my human family to be family to them, not furniture, which is fine since that is how they see them anyway. The only question is whether they see the kids as lower in status or higher in status. If they see them as puppies they can correct, that is disastrous. If they see them as higher-ups that can correct them, that is great. I have taught my dogs that they must obey all humans, no matter what size. Since they think in pack hierarchy, this doesn't stress them, it just shows them where they stand. OTOH, if you tried to get them to respect and obey children without having them fit into pack hierarchy, that would make no sense to a dog. I guess you could teach them to stay away from the kids like you can teach them to stay off a couch, but I want a better relationship than that, and so do my kids. So they learn that we are all a pack, these are the pack leaders, these are the rules set by the pack leaders and this is how our pack runs and everyone is happy. Well, until a kid is walking by with a dangling chicken leg and the dog knows it can't just grab it from a superior, anyway. -- Paula "Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy, so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Hi, This may help
Learning: Puppies are capable of learning at around 3 weeks. The use of senses (scent, sight, sound, taste and touch); Genetics; Environment; Interactions; Situation exposed to; will all contribute to the development of temperament, which will be shaped by the time of adoption at 7/8 weeks. Consequences of experiences will teach to discriminate, and also the mother's temperament will play a major role in determining that of her puppies. If mum's nervous or aggressive, the chances are her puppies will be influenced by her behaviour and learn to be alike her - their 'first' role model... Same can apply later, once puppy arrives home (please read: 'Showing Good Example') The Breeder's Role: Puppies that are secluded or not properly socialised whilst with the breeder may fear humans forever. A good breeder will introduce the pups to a home environment. Puppies taken away from their mother and siblings too early may have difficulty interacting with other dogs. Reputable breeders are proud of their work to ensure their puppies have a good start to life, and would welcome prospective buyers to view mum with her pups. (I'd insist -unfortunately there are traders (puppy farmers) calling themselves breeders, who buy in pups that may have been separated too early, where the trauma, mishandling and/or lengthy travel can and does have fatal results). Socialisation: Knowledgeable and reputable breeders will address socialisation between 3 - 7 weeks. Pups will be reared in a well-designed area with plenty of daylight, and mixed floor surfaces (teaching pup where he should 'rest/play/toilet'). Pups will be taken into a domestic environment to learn about and prepare him for all the things most commonly found in his new home. Also, he'll be given plenty of exposure to all types of people, sounds, sights, scents, domestic appliances, weathers, vehicles, other dogs and as many other species as possible. If proper socialisation is not addressed, a pup may find re-homing a terrifying experience. Anxiety and fear could onset behaviours we may mistake as 'bad'. It really is very important to check out, and choose a good breeder when buying a puppy. Failure to understand ; with use of punishment and/or isolation, may create a fearful, destructive, aggressive or phobic dog. Socialisation Once Pup's Home: Unfortunately, it's between 7 - 12 weeks that pups enter their first 'Fear imprint stage' (there's another, at onset of new hormone surges between 6 - 12 months). Although it's essential his socialisation continues (introducing all possible environments, people, other species and situations), it's vital not to create stress and anxiety. E.g. avoid long periods of seclusion, don't leave puppy to cry at night, and never use verbal or physical reprimand. Behaviour: We can nearly always assume our pup's behaviours are innate or a result of what he's 'learned'. Care must be taken to teach only what we 'do' want him to learn, and not to focus on the things we don't want him to do. ALL puppies 'need' to use their teeth and it's natural and necessary to play-bite and mouth (nip). Reprimanding a pup for play biting is telling him nature's wrong, and not addressing 'bite-inhibition' (how hard he should put his teeth on human skin so as to not hurt). If pup is teased and rough-played (little Johnny thinks it's fun with this baby pup). He'll learn to play rough, but when he's a little bigger and Johnny gets hurt, who's to blame for him doing what he's been taught! If pup won't come back to us, it could be because we taught him that 'greeting us' is wrong. (eg: Pushing him away when he Jumps Up). ¨ If pup begs for food every time we eat, it could be we thought it cute when he was so little and unintentionally rewarded him, and continue rewarding him (all form of attention can be rewarding). Also, I suggest never to 'hand-feed' dogs, especially puppies. ·If pup hides to spend a penny, and won't go outside – (while being watched), it could be he's been taught it's wrong to go at all (reprimanded or punished) – So he hides! ·If pup chews everything, it could be because he's been given too many toys/textures he thinks anything can be chewed or he's teething or he's lonely/bored/afraid. Teaching: I believe it's best to teach 'what TO do' rather than 'what not to do', and that yelling at children and pets for behaviours we think are wrong is non-productive and likely to cause confusion, anxiety, stress, hostility, fear and behaviours far more difficult to address. Besides, by the time we yell, the thought of 'deciding to do' that behaviour will most likely be gone and they probably won't understand why they're being yelled at. Rather than focussing on these behaviours by yelling, I'd interrupt and encourage an alternative behaviour, and then reward that new behaviour. For instance: Pup runs towards us to 'jump up' As pup begins to jump take fast tiny paces backwards, (moving 'away - out of the way' until pup lands on all fours ; As he lands, say 'stand' ; then praise praise praise - gooooood pup !!! Give no attention to the jumping up (even negative attention is rewarding), but plenty of attention/reward for the standing. It's easy, effective and with no consequential damage. Pup learns 'what To do' instead of being confused about 'what he can't do'. I believe the brain has difficulty responding appropriately to negatives; For example: Let's try it out; follow these instructions: THINK ABOUT A BLUE BALL, NOW THINK ABOUT A RED BALL. NOW, DON'T THINK ABOUT A YELLOW BALL. what was your first thought? If you're one of the 99%, it would have been a 'Yellow Ball'. I say, that as a rule with small children and pets, if a sentence starts with DON'T, the don't don't compute. 'Privileges of Status' for wannabe Pack leaders Marilyn Bergeman Copyright © 2001 Dog-Training or Guiding the Pack? For decades I answered to the name 'Dog-Trainer'. I avoid calling myself that now. Years ago we were taught to train dogs to know 'Whose the Boss' to dominate them, in fear else they would. We would train - they would submit. It worked, but at a price;.only short term, and dogs got dead. So, finding what motivates and what makes them tick is far more appropriate in my opinion, than yelling and pulling around in the name of training. I really would prefer to be called something else how about dog-teacher, or dog- guide? Instead of bad-behaviour this teacher sees natural behaviours distorted, through our mis- interpretations and improper reactions. I believe that if we seek to understand how and why unacceptable behaviours come about, we can then learn how to prevent them, or adjust them to suit our culture. We don't want our dog to chew our belongings, pee indoors, bark excessively, jump up, steal food, pull on the lead, bite people, attack and fight with other dogs, run away, refuse to come back, self mutilate etc, but far too often these behaviours develop as a result of human error. Years ago whilst competing with dogs, I was disillusioned when I saw dogs great in the ring but with severe behaviour problems once away from their working environment. Sadly, this still happens today. I'd rather see a happy dog that trusts and respects, than one performing like 'Lassie' while on show, but living in prison otherwise. Let's face it we don't expect our child to be perfect …why should we expect our dog to be? Too many dogs have been destroyed in the name of dog-training. Teaching V's Instructing: I consider it's important to distinguish between 'teaching a behaviour' and 'instructing a behaviour'. Teaching must come first. Whilst 'teaching' I apply a method called 'Recognition Teaching' Every time he goes to sit, down, comes to me, pick something up, drop something etc I identify the action with a word and a body signal. Then immediately praise! Identifying behaviours with words and body signals, then rewarding with verbal praise and positive attention. WOW! he thinks, I got it right and I was going to do that anyway. That's the secret; dogs that learn how easy and rewarding it is To please, will want to please. Timing's important identify the action with word and signal 'as it's happening', or better still 'at that split second he's still thinking about doing it just before he does' then 'immediately' praise. After a very short while we can then instruct him to those behaviours using the words he already understands. 'Recognition teaching' requires we think about what we want our dog to do, instead of what we don't want him to do. I don't believe dogs understand what's not there. 'Privileges of Status': It's a difficult one, we have to consider how dog's perceive status in the pack environment. It's true that in the dog's world, a top dog may dominate the pack. He would eat first not have to worry about others stealing his food. He may position himself higher than the others, and groom the rest of the pack. He may lead when entering new territory (Lead the way generally in-fact). He would be expected to settle all disputes - Always take possession and never lose a game of tug. I believe a domestic dog will watch for signs of dominance in his human pack. But, do we understand what this dominance thing means to a dog, or are we confusing it with what it means in our world? Innately it's accepted that in the wild the strongest leads - a means to strengthen and preserve the species. However, it's my opinion that to a domesticated dog it's no big deal who takes on the task of pack-leader, so long as he is capable of guiding, protecting and caring for the entire pack. Should the pack-leader fall short, another pack member is expected to immediately compete for position. One way he may compete could simply be to test out the privileges assigned to the job, and if not contested, may see himself successful, where he takes on the duties of pack leader and expects rights to those privileges. Learning how to communicate to a dog whereby we show ourselves as proficient guides and pack leaders is therefore important. Forceful dominance is not necessary just an appreciation of what our dog expects. Everyone in the family should be aware. Our dog needs to see everyone (including children) as competent enough to guide whereby he will never be expected to take on the chore. A Dog's view of Hierarchy Marilyn Bergeman © 2003 Consider a Dog's view of hierarchy, and the privileges of high rank. Top Dog may demand quality 'space': I'd say a high-ranking dog would have he's own private rest space. (off territory to others) BUT he can sleep anywhere (our chairs, our bed). And he'd probably enjoy a higher position than the rest of the pack. From an early age we could deliberately place our belongings in his bed, then take them back. We could stand or sit in his bed every now and then. It's probably best not to let him on chairs or beds, but rather than telling him 'off' once he's there, distract him 'as' he approaches. but it's no good distracting him one day but 'never minding' or yelling at him the next. It's important to be consistent! Favourite TV programs may be missed, but it pays to untiringly let him know that his place (space) is 'not' within ours. Top dog may insist on entering and investigating first: When approaching a door or throughway, don't let him think it's his responsibility/privilege to be first to 'check the way/explore the ground' . …. If he tries to nudge through the door before you, slam it closed and say 'BACK' (careful not to touch him with the door. Repeat until he takes a few paces back ; walk through ahead, and call him on after. Top Dog may groom the rest of the pack: It may be a good idea for everyone in family to groom him every day - teach him to 'stand' whilst grooming. Top Dog may always take possession: Teach the concept of sharing (Hold, Drop and Gently) ; Move on to retrieve - then tug where you mostly win the prize. Top Dog may eats first, or dictate when he eats - and not allow others to steal his food or belongings: Prepare his food with him watching. Leave it high where he can't reach while you eat a biscuit or sandwich. After a few moments, hold up the food bowl, instruct to sit/stay for 2 minutes before feeding. Top Dog may demand attention and initiate work & play: If he demands play brings a toy and barks, ignore completely until he's dropped the toy and given up on the idea. Then, go to the toy and 'you' initiate play. Work with him at least once a day practice what he's already learned and try to teach him something new every day. If he barks at times of the day you usually work/play/walk/feed), ignore him (don't shout to stop once barking stops wait for at least 5 minutes before you do whatever it was time to do. He will probably figure out your daily routine, but it's not his job to run the diary it's ours. (Jason) wrote in message . com... My husband and I bought Tess about 5 weeks ago from a kennels in Manchester. I grew up with a border collie who was placid and lovely and very much a family pet. I wanted my children to have the same experience and so we got Tess who is now about 16 weeks. We live in a school so she is able to have freedom running over the school fields etc so exercise isnt a problem. I am concerned however that she is constantly nipping and will not sit quietly in the evenings once she has been walked, we are unable to have her with us in the lounge. Also we have a cat and Tess eats his food if she gets near it. She growls very nastily when I try to remove her from the cats food and was very growly as if she would bite when she was near the food yesterday. Today I took her to the field and she was quite wild. I should not have let her off the lead but until recently she has been relatively well-behaved. She ran at my little boy and flattened him to the floor, she then went for his arm, not in a nippy way but in a head shaking nasty way. We have 3 children who are 7 5 and 3 and I am beginning to think that I have bitten off more than I can chew. Should we persevere and try to train the dog or will she continue to be a worry around the children? Is it better to quit now so that someone else can train her. She was only officially allowed out for walks today but as we have quite a lot of private land she has had a good deal of supervised freedom already. We are attending puppy socialisation on Saturday so I shall see what happens. I guess I would just like to know would it be a good thing for us to continue when I have serious doubts or to quit now before the training starts so that Tess can have the best start in life with somebody else?. My husband Jason is very much top dog with her and all is well with him. Any advice would be appreciated, she really is a lovely dog ! Many thanks, Carol Campbell |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Paula writes:
I disagree with this. In my experience, dogs will always assume that kids in the house are part of the pack, and I want them to as that means they are family and den-mates. Their concept of family is pack. I think that applying the hierarchical wolf pack behaviour model to domesticated dogs might not be the most useful or accurate. In the Coppinger's book "Dogs", they point out that domesticated dog behaviour is quite different than wolf behaviour. Plus, this thread is discussing a breed, the border collie, that has come from dogs that have been selected for hundreds of years for their ability to work alone or with at most one or two other dogs and a shepherd. I'm not suggesting that the original poster doesn't need to consider family dynamics with her dog behaviour issue, but that it may be more complicated than just asserting dominance. -- Stafford A. Rau raudog @ rauhaus.org |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
i have an 11month old border colie called buster. at times he can be lovely and cute and a nice little doggy. but when he's not being nice, he can be an absolute terror.
he constantly looks for things 2 steal, he mooches, he destroys things. the worst thing is when he steals food, or just anything in general. he seems to know when he's stole something u dont want him to have, he guards it like its his own. and i mean guards it, if u so much breath, the lips are up and the teeeth r showing and if you touch him he flys 4 you. we have to grab him with the oven gloves and put him into a room on his own til he settles. i dont know where this came from, he gets plenty walks, loads of attention and he goes 2 obedience classes. he's a clever dog n learns all the tricks, but he still h as this problem. what we dont get is that he's brill outside wen hes walking, apart from a little bit of nipping with us, but he loves ppl and other doggies n we dont get a minutes bother. if we did then we'd hav 2 consider the inevitable, but as its only in the house, we jst deal with it. oh his other prob, he chases cars, NOOO lol |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
STEPHO wrote:
i have an 11month old border colie called buster. at times he can be lovely and cute and a nice little doggy. but when he's not being nice, he can be an absolute terror. he constantly looks for things 2 steal, he mooches, he destroys things. the worst thing is when he steals food, or just anything in general. he seems to know when he's stole something u dont want him to have, he guards it like its his own. You just need to grow a set of balls. I've always loved my german shepherds and would be nice to them, but whenever they acted aggressive and dominant towards me, I would shout them into submission. If they'd snap or growl at me, I'd grab them by the neck, slap them around and show them who's boss, and they respect that. I would never put up with the kind of **** you mentioned. - Logic316 "Conservative: a statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with new ones." |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Training questions - Border Collie | White Monkey | Dog behavior | 15 | July 22nd 04 06:27 PM |
Training questions - Border Collie | Lynda | Dog behavior | 0 | July 21st 04 06:51 PM |
Training questions - Border Collie | Lynda | Dog behavior | 0 | July 21st 04 06:51 PM |
Border Collie with Hip dysplasia | Mark/Shell | Dog health | 2 | August 7th 03 01:10 PM |
Border Collie with Hip dysplasia | Mark/Shell | Dog health | 0 | August 5th 03 11:47 PM |