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Border Collie - biting - HELP???!!!



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 24th 05, 11:36 PM
Jason
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Default Border Collie - biting - HELP???!!!

My husband and I bought Tess about 5 weeks ago from a kennels in
Manchester. I grew up with a border collie who was placid and lovely
and very much a family pet. I wanted my children to have the same
experience and so we got Tess who is now about 16 weeks. We live in a
school so she is able to have freedom running over the school fields
etc so exercise isnt a problem. I am concerned however that she is
constantly nipping and will not sit quietly in the evenings once she
has been walked, we are unable to have her with us in the lounge. Also
we have a cat and Tess eats his food if she gets near it. She growls
very nastily when I try to remove her from the cats food and was very
growly as if she would bite when she was near the food yesterday.
Today I took her to the field and she was quite wild. I should not
have let her off the lead but until recently she has been relatively
well-behaved. She ran at my little boy and flattened him to the floor,
she then went for his arm, not in a nippy way but in a head shaking
nasty way. We have 3 children who are 7 5 and 3 and I am beginning to
think that I have bitten off more than I can chew. Should we persevere
and try to train the dog or will she continue to be a worry around the
children? Is it better to quit now so that someone else can train her.
She was only officially allowed out for walks today but as we have
quite a lot of private land she has had a good deal of supervised
freedom already. We are attending puppy socialisation on Saturday so I
shall see what happens. I guess I would just like to know would it be
a good thing for us to continue when I have serious doubts or to quit
now before the training starts so that Tess can have the best start in
life with somebody else?. My husband Jason is very much top dog with
her and all is well with him. Any advice would be appreciated, she
really is a lovely dog !
Many thanks, Carol Campbell
  #2  
Old March 24th 05, 11:43 PM
Janet B
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On 24 Mar 2005 14:36:56 -0800, (Jason)
wrote:

Tess who is now about 16 weeks.


I am concerned however that she is
constantly nipping and will not sit quietly in the evenings once she
has been walked, we are unable to have her with us in the lounge.


How much MENTAL stimulation is she getting? With a BC, that's as
important as physical exercise.

Also
we have a cat and Tess eats his food if she gets near it.


Put the cat food out of reach.

She growls
very nastily when I try to remove her from the cats food and was very
growly as if she would bite when she was near the food yesterday.


Work with her on that. She should sit and wait for permission to eat
and you should add food to her bowl as she's eating. She'll see your
hand as a good thing. Of course, obedience training is necessary.
Basically - if you have a dog who comes when called no matter what,
and a solid stay, you can conquer anything.

Today I took her to the field and she was quite wild. I should not
have let her off the lead but until recently she has been relatively
well-behaved. She ran at my little boy and flattened him to the floor,
she then went for his arm, not in a nippy way but in a head shaking
nasty way.


She's getting freedom without structure. She needs both.

We have 3 children who are 7 5 and 3 and I am beginning to
think that I have bitten off more than I can chew. Should we persevere
and try to train the dog or will she continue to be a worry around the
children? Is it better to quit now so that someone else can train her.


Only you can decide if you have the time to give to train her.

We are attending puppy socialisation on Saturday so I
shall see what happens.


That's a very good place to start. Training is a very, very good
thing and a BC really benefits from WORK, not just play.

Best wishes.

--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...bedience/album
  #3  
Old March 26th 05, 02:01 PM
Diana
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"Jason" wrote in message
om...
My husband and I bought Tess about 5 weeks ago from a kennels in
Manchester. I grew up with a border collie who was placid and lovely
and very much a family pet. I wanted my children to have the same
experience and so we got Tess who is now about 16 weeks.


You don't expect the children to behave like adults, but seem to think a
puppy to behave like an adult dog?

He's being a baby and just like human babies, needs constant love and
training, patience and fun games to help him develop into the adult dog you
hope for in the future. Like children, many of his life lessons will come
through play and he has boundless energy for play and learning.

Get him to a puppy class as soon as possible... http://www.apdt.co.uk/ will
help you find a good class in your area

Diana & Cindy

--
Cindy the weimaraner's web site:
http://cindy-incidentally.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk


  #4  
Old March 27th 05, 02:06 PM
Jason
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Default

Thanks for all this advice.

In the last few days we have made sure we have had her on the lead and
allowing her to run off excess energy on the school field. She seems a
lot better and has even started not to pull so hard on the lead.
I think the main thing is for her to know that the children are higher
in the pack than her and we have had to 'train' the kids to do this.
They have been more firm with her and we have made sure they feed her
occasionally.

Anyway things are looking up and we're going to put the effort in with
her as I'm sure it will be worthwhile....

Jason & Carol

"Diana" wrote in message ...
"Jason" wrote in message
om...
My husband and I bought Tess about 5 weeks ago from a kennels in
Manchester. I grew up with a border collie who was placid and lovely
and very much a family pet. I wanted my children to have the same
experience and so we got Tess who is now about 16 weeks.


You don't expect the children to behave like adults, but seem to think a
puppy to behave like an adult dog?

He's being a baby and just like human babies, needs constant love and
training, patience and fun games to help him develop into the adult dog you
hope for in the future. Like children, many of his life lessons will come
through play and he has boundless energy for play and learning.

Get him to a puppy class as soon as possible... http://www.apdt.co.uk/ will
help you find a good class in your area

Diana & Cindy

  #5  
Old March 27th 05, 05:25 PM
Diana
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Jason" wrote in message
om...
[..]

in the pack than her and we have had to 'train' the kids to do this.
They have been more firm with her and we have made sure they feed her
occasionally.

Anyway things are looking up and we're going to put the effort in with
her as I'm sure it will be worthwhile....


Not so much that children are 'higher in the pack' cos children aren't 'in
the pack' - they are a part of life and just as you taught your children to
respond to grown ups with respect, you must teach both your children and
your pup to respect each other... not easy, both will try and push the
boundaries, but then you chose to mix dogs & kids vbg

Border Collies are natural herders - they've been selectively bred over
hundreds of years for this instinct and many people struggle to control this
instinct with regards to children. For that reason, they tend not to be
recommended for situations where their are a lot of children, esp. for a
novice owner, but 'good manners' training + mutual respect for each others
capabilities (eg he's the great thinker/tinker g and you are the master of
the fridge and finder of all wonderous delights) will go a long way.

Still can't recommend classes highly enuff, + drop the Jan Fernell books and
go seek the 'Culture Clash' g

Diana & Cindy

--
Cindy the weimaraner's web site:
http://cindy-incidentally.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk


  #6  
Old March 27th 05, 07:42 PM
Paula
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On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:25:56 +0100, "Diana"
wrote:


"Jason" wrote in message
. com...
[..]

in the pack than her and we have had to 'train' the kids to do this.
They have been more firm with her and we have made sure they feed her
occasionally.

Anyway things are looking up and we're going to put the effort in with
her as I'm sure it will be worthwhile....


Not so much that children are 'higher in the pack' cos children aren't 'in
the pack' - they are a part of life


I disagree with this. In my experience, dogs will always assume that
kids in the house are part of the pack, and I want them to as that
means they are family and den-mates. Their concept of family is pack.
I want everyone in my human family to be family to them, not
furniture, which is fine since that is how they see them anyway. The
only question is whether they see the kids as lower in status or
higher in status. If they see them as puppies they can correct, that
is disastrous. If they see them as higher-ups that can correct them,
that is great. I have taught my dogs that they must obey all humans,
no matter what size. Since they think in pack hierarchy, this doesn't
stress them, it just shows them where they stand. OTOH, if you tried
to get them to respect and obey children without having them fit into
pack hierarchy, that would make no sense to a dog. I guess you could
teach them to stay away from the kids like you can teach them to stay
off a couch, but I want a better relationship than that, and so do my
kids. So they learn that we are all a pack, these are the pack
leaders, these are the rules set by the pack leaders and this is how
our pack runs and everyone is happy. Well, until a kid is walking by
with a dangling chicken leg and the dog knows it can't just grab it
from a superior, anyway.

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy, so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
  #7  
Old March 27th 05, 10:33 PM
dogessentials
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Default

Hi, This may help

Learning: Puppies are capable of learning at around 3 weeks. The use
of senses (scent, sight, sound, taste
and touch); Genetics; Environment; Interactions; Situation exposed to;
will all contribute to the
development of temperament, which will be shaped by the time of
adoption at 7/8 weeks. Consequences of
experiences will teach to discriminate, and also the mother's
temperament will play a major role in
determining that of her puppies. If mum's nervous or aggressive, the
chances are her puppies will be
influenced by her behaviour and learn to be alike her - their 'first'
role model... Same can apply later, once
puppy arrives home (please read: 'Showing Good Example')
The Breeder's Role: Puppies that are secluded or not properly
socialised whilst with the breeder may fear
humans forever. A good breeder will introduce the pups to a home
environment. Puppies taken away from
their mother and siblings too early may have difficulty interacting
with other dogs. Reputable breeders are
proud of their work to ensure their puppies have a good start to life,
and would welcome prospective
buyers to view mum with her pups. (I'd insist -unfortunately there are
traders (puppy farmers) calling
themselves breeders, who buy in pups that may have been separated too
early, where the trauma,
mishandling and/or lengthy travel can and does have fatal results).
Socialisation: Knowledgeable and reputable breeders will address
socialisation between 3 - 7 weeks. Pups
will be reared in a well-designed area with plenty of daylight, and
mixed floor surfaces (teaching pup where
he should 'rest/play/toilet'). Pups will be taken into a domestic
environment to learn about and prepare him
for all the things most commonly found in his new home. Also, he'll be
given plenty of exposure to all types
of people, sounds, sights, scents, domestic appliances, weathers,
vehicles, other dogs and as many other
species as possible.
If proper socialisation is not addressed, a pup may find re-homing a
terrifying experience. Anxiety and
fear could onset behaviours we may mistake as 'bad'. It really is very
important to check out, and
choose a good breeder when buying a puppy.
Failure to understand ; with use of punishment and/or isolation, may
create a fearful, destructive,
aggressive or phobic dog.
Socialisation Once Pup's Home: Unfortunately, it's between 7 - 12
weeks that pups enter their first 'Fear
imprint stage' (there's another, at onset of new hormone surges
between 6 - 12 months). Although it's
essential his socialisation continues (introducing all possible
environments, people, other species and
situations), it's vital not to create stress and anxiety. E.g. avoid
long periods of seclusion, don't leave puppy
to cry at night, and never use verbal or physical reprimand.
Behaviour: We can nearly always assume our pup's behaviours are innate
or a result of what he's 'learned'.
Care must be taken to teach only what we 'do' want him to learn, and
not to focus on the things we
don't want him to do.
ALL puppies 'need' to use their teeth and it's natural and necessary
to play-bite and mouth (nip).
Reprimanding a pup for play biting is telling him nature's wrong, and
not addressing 'bite-inhibition'
(how hard he should put his teeth on human skin so as to not hurt).
If pup is teased and rough-played (little Johnny thinks it's fun with
this baby pup). He'll learn to play
rough, but when he's a little bigger and Johnny gets hurt, who's to
blame for him doing what he's been
taught!
If pup won't come back to us, it could be because we taught him that
'greeting us' is wrong. (eg: Pushing
him away when he Jumps Up).
¨ If pup begs for food every time we eat, it could be we thought
it cute when he was so little and
unintentionally rewarded him, and continue rewarding him (all form of
attention can be rewarding).
Also, I suggest never to 'hand-feed' dogs, especially puppies.
·If pup hides to spend a penny, and won't go outside – (while
being watched), it could be he's been
taught it's wrong to go at all (reprimanded or punished) – So he
hides!
·If pup chews everything, it could be because he's been given too many
toys/textures he thinks
anything can be chewed or he's teething or he's lonely/bored/afraid.
Teaching: I believe it's best to teach 'what TO do' rather than 'what
not to do', and that yelling at children
and pets for behaviours we think are wrong is non-productive and
likely to cause confusion, anxiety, stress,
hostility, fear and behaviours far more difficult to address. Besides,
by the time we yell, the thought of
'deciding to do' that behaviour will most likely be gone and they
probably won't understand why they're
being yelled at. Rather than focussing on these behaviours by yelling,
I'd interrupt and encourage an
alternative behaviour, and then reward that new behaviour. For
instance: Pup runs towards us to 'jump up'
As pup begins to jump take fast tiny paces backwards, (moving 'away -
out of the way' until pup lands
on all fours ; As he lands, say 'stand' ; then praise praise praise -
gooooood pup !!! Give no attention to
the jumping up (even negative attention is rewarding), but plenty of
attention/reward for the standing. It's
easy, effective and with no consequential damage. Pup learns 'what To
do' instead of being confused
about 'what he can't do'. I believe the brain has difficulty
responding appropriately to negatives; For
example: Let's try it out; follow these instructions: THINK ABOUT A
BLUE BALL, NOW THINK ABOUT A RED BALL.
NOW, DON'T THINK ABOUT A YELLOW BALL.
what was your first thought?
If you're one of the 99%, it would have been a 'Yellow Ball'.
I say, that as a rule with small children and pets, if a sentence
starts with DON'T, the don't don't compute.

'Privileges of Status' for wannabe Pack leaders
Marilyn Bergeman Copyright © 2001
Dog-Training or Guiding the Pack?
For decades I answered to the name 'Dog-Trainer'. I avoid calling
myself that now. Years ago we were
taught to train dogs to know 'Whose the Boss' to dominate them, in
fear else they would. We would train
- they would submit. It worked, but at a price;.only short term, and
dogs got dead. So, finding what
motivates and what makes them tick is far more appropriate in my
opinion, than yelling and pulling around
in the name of training. I really would prefer to be called something
else how about dog-teacher, or dog-
guide? Instead of bad-behaviour this teacher sees natural behaviours
distorted, through our mis-
interpretations and improper reactions. I believe that if we seek to
understand how and why unacceptable
behaviours come about, we can then learn how to prevent them, or
adjust them to suit our culture. We don't
want our dog to chew our belongings, pee indoors, bark excessively,
jump up, steal food, pull on the lead,
bite people, attack and fight with other dogs, run away, refuse to
come back, self mutilate etc, but far too
often these behaviours develop as a result of human error. Years ago
whilst competing with dogs, I was
disillusioned when I saw dogs great in the ring but with severe
behaviour problems once away from their
working environment. Sadly, this still happens today. I'd rather see a
happy dog that trusts and respects,
than one performing like 'Lassie' while on show, but living in prison
otherwise. Let's face it we don't
expect our child to be perfect …why should we expect our dog to
be? Too many dogs have been destroyed
in the name of dog-training.
Teaching V's Instructing: I consider it's important to distinguish
between 'teaching a behaviour' and
'instructing a behaviour'. Teaching must come first. Whilst 'teaching'
I apply a method called 'Recognition
Teaching' Every time he goes to sit, down, comes to me, pick
something up, drop something etc
I identify the action with a word and a body signal. Then immediately
praise! Identifying behaviours
with words and body signals, then rewarding with verbal praise and
positive attention. WOW! he thinks, I got it right and I was going to
do that anyway. That's the secret; dogs that learn how easy and
rewarding
it is To please, will want to please. Timing's important identify the
action with word and signal 'as it's
happening', or better still 'at that split second he's still thinking
about doing it just before he does'
then 'immediately' praise. After a very short while we can then
instruct him to those behaviours using the
words he already understands. 'Recognition teaching' requires we think
about what we want our dog to do,
instead of what we don't want him to do. I don't believe dogs
understand what's not there.
'Privileges of Status': It's a difficult one, we have to consider how
dog's perceive status in the pack
environment. It's true that in the dog's world, a top dog may dominate
the pack. He would eat first not
have to worry about others stealing his food. He may position himself
higher than the others, and groom the
rest of the pack. He may lead when entering new territory (Lead the
way generally in-fact). He would be
expected to settle all disputes - Always take possession and never
lose a game of tug. I believe a domestic
dog will watch for signs of dominance in his human pack. But, do we
understand what this dominance thing
means to a dog, or are we confusing it with what it means in our
world? Innately it's accepted that in the
wild the strongest leads - a means to strengthen and preserve the
species. However, it's my opinion that to a
domesticated dog it's no big deal who takes on the task of
pack-leader, so long as he is capable of guiding,
protecting and caring for the entire pack. Should the pack-leader fall
short, another pack member is expected
to immediately compete for position. One way he may compete could
simply be to test out the privileges
assigned to the job, and if not contested, may see himself successful,
where he takes on the duties of pack
leader and expects rights to those privileges. Learning how to
communicate to a dog whereby we show
ourselves as proficient guides and pack leaders is therefore
important. Forceful dominance is not necessary
just an appreciation of what our dog expects. Everyone in the family
should be aware. Our dog needs to see
everyone (including children) as competent enough to guide whereby he
will never be expected to take on
the chore.

A Dog's view of Hierarchy
Marilyn Bergeman © 2003
Consider a Dog's view of hierarchy, and the privileges of high rank.
Top Dog may demand quality 'space': I'd say a high-ranking dog would
have he's own private rest space.
(off territory to others) BUT he can sleep anywhere (our chairs, our
bed). And he'd probably enjoy a
higher position than the rest of the pack. From an early age we could
deliberately place our belongings in his
bed, then take them back. We could stand or sit in his bed every now
and then. It's probably best not to let
him on chairs or beds, but rather than telling him 'off' once he's
there, distract him 'as' he approaches. but it's
no good distracting him one day but 'never minding' or yelling at him
the next. It's important to be consistent!
Favourite TV programs may be missed, but it pays to untiringly let him
know that his place (space) is 'not'
within ours.
Top dog may insist on entering and investigating first: When
approaching a door or throughway, don't let
him think it's his responsibility/privilege to be first to 'check the
way/explore the ground' . …. If he tries to
nudge through the door before you, slam it closed and say 'BACK'
(careful not to touch him with the
door. Repeat until he takes a few paces back ; walk through ahead, and
call him on after.
Top Dog may groom the rest of the pack: It may be a good idea for
everyone in family to groom him every
day - teach him to 'stand' whilst grooming.
Top Dog may always take possession: Teach the concept of sharing
(Hold, Drop and Gently) ; Move on to
retrieve - then tug where you mostly win the prize.
Top Dog may eats first, or dictate when he eats - and not allow others
to steal his food or belongings:
Prepare his food with him watching. Leave it high where he can't reach
while you eat a biscuit or
sandwich. After a few moments, hold up the food bowl, instruct to
sit/stay for 2 minutes before feeding.
Top Dog may demand attention and initiate work & play: If he demands
play brings a toy and barks,
ignore completely until he's dropped the toy and given up on the idea.
Then, go to the toy and 'you' initiate
play. Work with him at least once a day practice what he's already
learned and try to teach him something
new every day.
If he barks at times of the day you usually work/play/walk/feed),
ignore him (don't shout to
stop once barking stops wait for at least 5 minutes before you do
whatever it was time to do.
He will probably figure out your daily routine, but it's not his job
to run the diary it's ours.


(Jason) wrote in message . com...
My husband and I bought Tess about 5 weeks ago from a kennels in
Manchester. I grew up with a border collie who was placid and lovely
and very much a family pet. I wanted my children to have the same
experience and so we got Tess who is now about 16 weeks. We live in a
school so she is able to have freedom running over the school fields
etc so exercise isnt a problem. I am concerned however that she is
constantly nipping and will not sit quietly in the evenings once she
has been walked, we are unable to have her with us in the lounge. Also
we have a cat and Tess eats his food if she gets near it. She growls
very nastily when I try to remove her from the cats food and was very
growly as if she would bite when she was near the food yesterday.
Today I took her to the field and she was quite wild. I should not
have let her off the lead but until recently she has been relatively
well-behaved. She ran at my little boy and flattened him to the floor,
she then went for his arm, not in a nippy way but in a head shaking
nasty way. We have 3 children who are 7 5 and 3 and I am beginning to
think that I have bitten off more than I can chew. Should we persevere
and try to train the dog or will she continue to be a worry around the
children? Is it better to quit now so that someone else can train her.
She was only officially allowed out for walks today but as we have
quite a lot of private land she has had a good deal of supervised
freedom already. We are attending puppy socialisation on Saturday so I
shall see what happens. I guess I would just like to know would it be
a good thing for us to continue when I have serious doubts or to quit
now before the training starts so that Tess can have the best start in
life with somebody else?. My husband Jason is very much top dog with
her and all is well with him. Any advice would be appreciated, she
really is a lovely dog !
Many thanks, Carol Campbell

  #8  
Old March 28th 05, 07:34 PM
Stafford A. Rau
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Default

Paula writes:

I disagree with this. In my experience, dogs will always assume that
kids in the house are part of the pack, and I want them to as that
means they are family and den-mates. Their concept of family is pack.


I think that applying the hierarchical wolf pack behaviour model to
domesticated dogs might not be the most useful or accurate. In the
Coppinger's book "Dogs", they point out that domesticated dog
behaviour is quite different than wolf behaviour.

Plus, this thread is discussing a breed, the border collie, that has
come from dogs that have been selected for hundreds of years for their
ability to work alone or with at most one or two other dogs and a
shepherd.

I'm not suggesting that the original poster doesn't need to consider
family dynamics with her dog behaviour issue, but that it may be more
complicated than just asserting dominance.
--
Stafford A. Rau
raudog @ rauhaus.org
  #9  
Old September 6th 05, 03:37 PM
STEPHO STEPHO is offline
Junior Member
 
First recorded activity by DogBanter: Jul 2005
Location: cumbernauld
Posts: 3
Default

i have an 11month old border colie called buster. at times he can be lovely and cute and a nice little doggy. but when he's not being nice, he can be an absolute terror.
he constantly looks for things 2 steal, he mooches, he destroys things. the worst thing is when he steals food, or just anything in general. he seems to know when he's stole something u dont want him to have, he guards it like its his own. and i mean guards it, if u so much breath, the lips are up and the teeeth r showing and if you touch him he flys 4 you. we have to grab him with the oven gloves and put him into a room on his own til he settles. i dont know where this came from, he gets plenty walks, loads of attention and he goes 2 obedience classes. he's a clever dog n learns all the tricks, but he still h as this problem. what we dont get is that he's brill outside wen hes walking, apart from a little bit of nipping with us, but he loves ppl and other doggies n we dont get a minutes bother. if we did then we'd hav 2 consider the inevitable, but as its only in the house, we jst deal with it.
oh his other prob, he chases cars, NOOO lol
  #10  
Old September 7th 05, 09:15 AM
Logic316
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Posts: n/a
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STEPHO wrote:
i have an 11month old border colie called buster. at times he can be
lovely and cute and a nice little doggy. but when he's not being nice,
he can be an absolute terror.
he constantly looks for things 2 steal, he mooches, he destroys things.
the worst thing is when he steals food, or just anything in general. he
seems to know when he's stole something u dont want him to have, he
guards it like its his own.


You just need to grow a set of balls. I've always loved my german
shepherds and would be nice to them, but whenever they acted aggressive
and dominant towards me, I would shout them into submission. If they'd
snap or growl at me, I'd grab them by the neck, slap them around and
show them who's boss, and they respect that. I would never put up with
the kind of **** you mentioned.

- Logic316



"Conservative: a statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as
distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with new ones."
 




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