Do any of you have experience with raising two pups (litter brothers) at
once? I'm considering buying two sighthound pups and would like some advice,
but nobody I know have any experience in that area.

Here's the situation: I'm an adult, single woman living in a semi-large
city. There are numerous parks and trails around, plus plenty of large
forest areas. There are lots of dogs in my neighborhood, so there will be
plenty opportunity for socialization. I live in a spacious one-bedroom
apartment, and I study part-time at the university. I'm usually not away for
more than 3-4 hours at the time, and I have lots of friends in the
neighborhood who can watch the pups while I'm gone.

I've been told over and over again that two same-sex pups at once is bound
to cause:

1: Waaay too much work
2: Hierarchy fights from adolescence on
3: Separation anxiety when the dogs are separated, no matter how much I
train them separately
....and the list goes on.

They all tell me I should get one pup now and another in 1-4 years (i.e.
some say 1-2 years, others say 3-4).

I myself don't see how two brothers will automatically fight for dominance,
if I raise/train them with that possibility in mind. And I could get the
same problem if I got a mild tempered pup first and then a more dominant pup
later.

And as for the "waaay too much work" part, I can't think it will be much
harder than having one dog and one small child (which many of the nay-sayers
think is just fine...). I'd rather have two pups at once than go through the
puppy stage twice.

And separation anxiety is a risk even if I get one pup first and the other
later. Besides, I'd desensitize them to being separated by placing one pup
with friends for a weekend while I keep the other one at home, and then vice
verca.

But maybe I'm being too optimistic? Are there things I haven't thought
about? Of course, they'll be romping and playing a lot, causing havoc and
general mayhem. But I'm not a desperately neat and tidy person, so I won't
panic at the sight of two pups ripping into the carpet or shredding my
underwear. And if it gets too wild, I'll crate them until they calm down a
bit. And as for training, I realize I'll have to walk/train them separately
to get their basic obedience skills in place.

Funny thing is, nobody has ever said anything about potential *positive*
sides of having two pups at once. I can think of several, with "company and
playmate" being number 1.

So, does anyone have any experience to share?

Cheers,
Rox

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:31:26 +0200 Fassen whittled these words:
Do any of you have experience with raising two pups (litter brothers) at
once? I'm considering buying two sighthound pups and would like some advice,
but nobody I know have any experience in that area.

Yes. I wouldbn't want to repeat the experience.

Here's the situation: I'm an adult, single woman living in a semi-large
city. There are numerous parks and trails around, plus plenty of large
forest areas. There are lots of dogs in my neighborhood, so there will be
plenty opportunity for socialization. I live in a spacious one-bedroom
apartment, and I study part-time at the university. I'm usually not away for
more than 3-4 hours at the time, and I have lots of friends in the
neighborhood who can watch the pups while I'm gone.

I've been told over and over again that two same-sex pups at once is bound
to cause:

1: Waaay too much work
2: Hierarchy fights from adolescence on
3: Separation anxiety when the dogs are separated, no matter how much I
train them separately
...and the list goes on.

Those are the risks. You might be successful and vaoid them. But then you
might not. FRom my perspective one of the things is that because of the
nature of the relationship at least one of those puppies will never really
get a chance to fully blossom and develop. That is becausse it will
always be inrelationship to the other.

They all tell me I should get one pup now and another in 1-4 years (i.e.
some say 1-2 years, others say 3-4).

Yes.

I myself don't see how two brothers will automatically fight for dominance,

They don't "automatically" fight. Some live in harmony, some in close
bonding, some in small skimishes and some in all out battles to the death.

if I raise/train them with that possibility in mind. And I could get the
same problem if I got a mild tempered pup first and then a more dominant pup
later.

Well dogs are dogs. They have instinctive patterns of behavior. They also
aren't human so they don't have the same responses to situations. In the
scenario you describe the most likely outcome is the first pup gives way
to the second without much of a battle because they are hardwired to
respect a leader. The problem might come if they are less distinct. The
more alike the dogs in size, age, sex, .... the bigger the risks of
issues.

And as for the "waaay too much work" part, I can't think it will be much
harder than having one dog and one small child (which many of the nay-sayers
think is just fine...). I'd rather have two pups at once than go through the
puppy stage twice.

Why go through the puppy stage even once? There are lots of wonderful
dogs out there that will bond with you every bit as much as a puppy. But
to answer the question is because it is a lot harder to get the right
behavior if you have one doing the wrong thing while you are focussing on
preventing the other from doing the wrong thing. Key to having the
easiest and least confrontational puppy raising is to be able to
anticipate and prevent unwanted behavior. You make that extremely
difficult with one than one to teach at a time.

And separation anxiety is a risk even if I get one pup first and the other
later.

A risk, yes, less of a risk.

Besides, I'd desensitize them to being separated by placing one pup
with friends for a weekend while I keep the other one at home, and then vice
verca.

OK

But maybe I'm being too optimistic? Are there things I haven't thought
about?

Do you work at home? HOw many hours a day will they each be spending with
you without the other present, relative to spending time with each other?

Of course, they'll be romping and playing a lot, causing havoc and
general mayhem. But I'm not a desperately neat and tidy person, so I won't
panic at the sight of two pups ripping into the carpet or shredding my
underwear. And if it gets too wild, I'll crate them until they calm down a
bit. And as for training, I realize I'll have to walk/train them separately
to get their basic obedience skills in place.

My guess is that you will do it regardless of the advice received because
you have decided that is what you want to do. You understand the down
sides. Now you are looking for people who will tell you that all thaose
risks are just hog wash and that you can succeeed in your plans. You will
get those people because that's the way it is.

Funny thing is, nobody has ever said anything about potential *positive*
sides of having two pups at once. I can think of several, with "company and
playmate" being number 1.

Well since your response to the risks has been that you get those risks at
anytime you get a second might I point out the same applies. You get that
companiopnship "company and playmate" benefit anytime you get a second
dog.

So, does anyone have any experience to share?

You really don't want the experiences that support the suggestion that it
is a bad idea. You really want people to report to your their successes
to the contrary. There are such because none of this is 100%. Alll
people are telling you is the *risks* involved in starting with
littermates. If you choose to embrace those risks you are free to do so.
Just recognize that *some* of those risks, if they actually occur, can
impair the dog for life. It might not happen. All might be well. But if
it does happen it is the dog that pays the price. Damn the torpedos, full
speed ahead!


--
Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com/
http://dogplay.com/Shop/

FurPaw wrote in
:

snipped

That said, I would not attempt it with two males (or two females),
and I REALLY would not attempt it with large dogs.

I absolute agree with this. I have multiple dogs.

You can run into problems with 2 dogs the same sex, even if spayed/neutered. And I can
say from experience that it is difficult for one person alone to separate 2 big dogs that
are fighting. Easiest way is for 2 people, each grabs a tail and pulls. One person, get
a leash, tie one dog, then get the other dog off the tied dog. Too much time, possibility
for serious injury, etc.

Small dogs, grab one with each hand. Easy, by comparison.

Not to say that all same-sex dogs will fight. Not at all. But I'm just sayin'.

IMO if the OP particularly wants to have two dogs, check the humane orgs and rescues. I
frequently see dogs posted that MUST go in a pair to the same home, as they're inseparable
pals. That way you get your 2 dogs that are compatible (hopefully).

flick 100785

On 23 Apr 2005 14:36:39 GMT, wrote:


Funny thing is, nobody has ever said anything about potential *positive*
sides of having two pups at once. I can think of several, with "company and
playmate" being number 1.

Well since your response to the risks has been that you get those risks at
anytime you get a second might I point out the same applies. You get that
companiopnship "company and playmate" benefit anytime you get a second
dog.

It seems to me that the OP can get this same benefit without the risks
of two puppy littermates by adopting two adult dogs or one puppy and
one adult with some training, some difference in age, size, etc. and
without the bonding that comes with being littermates that can
interfere with bonding with the human. There are often dogs who have
been together who end up in rescue and want to be adopted together,
but there aren't as many homes for two dogs as there are for one.
Recently, there were a couple of dogs at a pet store adoption day
whose owner had to give them up when he was put in a nursing home.
They were desperately trying to find a home that would take both of
them because they were miserable without each other.

The idea that two puppies would not be that much more work than one is
completely wrong, IME. That is like saying twin babies aren't that
much more work than single births. It's true that they aren't twice
as hard to deal with, but it is because they are three or four times
harder, not that they are less than twice as hard. Puppies take a ton
of time and energy to raise right. Getting up for potty breaks,
training, managing chewing phases and housetraining (with or without
accidents)... And with wanting sighthounds, you have the added
problem of having to make absolutely sure you have them both under
control as you potty and exercise because they can run off after
something and not come back if you aren't. You can always add a
second dog if things are going well, but dumping a second dog because
you thought it was going to be fine but doesn't go well isn't so easy,
at least not if you have any compassion or care for the dog. My
advice would be to add a little salt at a time to the stew instead of
dumping it all in because in theory it should work out.

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy, so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

In article ,
Paula wrote:
The idea that two puppies would not be that much more work than one is
completely wrong, IME.

If nothing else, 2 dogs poop 3 times as much as 1 dog. It's
the weirdest thing.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Repealing the estate tax will cost a family earning about $70,000/year
an additional $500/year or so in additional income taxes

Fassen wrote:
Do any of you have experience with raising two pups (litter brothers) at
once? I'm considering buying two sighthound pups and would like some advice,
but nobody I know have any experience in that area.

[snip]

So, does anyone have any experience to share?

We did it with our two Chihuahuas - male and female littermates, and
it wasn't terribly difficult. I think it was successful, they have
a close relationship, no fighting, each one dominates in some
situations, and there is little or no separation anxiety AFAICT.
They're nearly 14 now. (They are really easygoing, so maybe we just
lucked out.)

That said, I would not attempt it with two males (or two females),
and I REALLY would not attempt it with large dogs. We also have a
GSD (11) and a Lab (9)and each was a handful as a pup. Boy, talk
about active! Dylan (GSD-f) ran us ragged, and Oppie (Lab-m) ran
her ragged and kept us going as well! And while Oppie is pretty
laid back (at least, once he got his brains delivered - well, most
of them have been delivered, he's still pretty goofy at times),
Dylan is a confident, strong alpha-type who was a real challenge to
train, especially through her rebellious adolescent phase. Once she
got past adolescence, she morphed into a lovely, wonderful dog whom
I adore, but I don't know if I could have handled two "teenagers"
like her at once!

Sometimes you do it because you just have to. A good friend rescued
three puppies (found abandoned in a box on a very cold January
morning), and though she loved the dogs dearly, she says never never
never never again would she raise more than one puppy at a time.
Training them was the hardest part, and there were some serious pack
dynamics to contend with throughout their adulthood (they were all
females, mutts, 40-50 lbs.). She said she didn't know what she
would have done without her older, larger female dog, who helped
keep the younger three in line. (She lives in the country on a
large fenced property and works part-time out of her house, i.e.,
home most of the time and lots of time and room and exercise
opportunity for the dogs.)

So if you want my advice, hold off on getting a second dog until a
first one is trained. Find a puppy kindergarten for early training
and set up play time or play groups with other puppy owners. If
you're home most of the time, your puppy will have plenty of
companionship - you.

Or adopt older dogs. There are plenty out there looking for a good
home.

HTH -

FurPaw
--
"Here we go round the prickly pear
At five o'clock in the morning."
- T. S. Eliot

To reply, unleash the dog

"Fassen" wrote in message
...
Do any of you have experience with raising two pups (litter brothers) at
once? I'm considering buying two sighthound pups and would like some
advice, but nobody I know have any experience in that area.

Here's the situation: I'm an adult, single woman living in a semi-large
city. There are numerous parks and trails around, plus plenty of large
forest areas. There are lots of dogs in my neighborhood, so there will be
plenty opportunity for socialization. I live in a spacious one-bedroom
apartment, and I study part-time at the university. I'm usually not away
for more than 3-4 hours at the time, and I have lots of friends in the
neighborhood who can watch the pups while I'm gone.

I've been told over and over again that two same-sex pups at once is bound
to cause:

1: Waaay too much work
2: Hierarchy fights from adolescence on
3: Separation anxiety when the dogs are separated, no matter how much I
train them separately
...and the list goes on.

They all tell me I should get one pup now and another in 1-4 years (i.e.
some say 1-2 years, others say 3-4).

I myself don't see how two brothers will automatically fight for
dominance, if I raise/train them with that possibility in mind. And I
could get the same problem if I got a mild tempered pup first and then a
more dominant pup later.

And as for the "waaay too much work" part, I can't think it will be much
harder than having one dog and one small child (which many of the
nay-sayers think is just fine...). I'd rather have two pups at once than
go through the puppy stage twice.

And separation anxiety is a risk even if I get one pup first and the other
later. Besides, I'd desensitize them to being separated by placing one pup
with friends for a weekend while I keep the other one at home, and then
vice verca.

But maybe I'm being too optimistic? Are there things I haven't thought
about? Of course, they'll be romping and playing a lot, causing havoc and
general mayhem. But I'm not a desperately neat and tidy person, so I won't
panic at the sight of two pups ripping into the carpet or shredding my
underwear. And if it gets too wild, I'll crate them until they calm down a
bit. And as for training, I realize I'll have to walk/train them
separately to get their basic obedience skills in place.

Funny thing is, nobody has ever said anything about potential *positive*
sides of having two pups at once. I can think of several, with "company
and playmate" being number 1.

So, does anyone have any experience to share?

Cheers,
Rox

Hi Rox,

I have sighthounds (Rhodesian ridgebacks, which are also scenthounds) and
belong to a breed specific email list with over 1000 RR owners/breeders.
Someone asked your questions recently and the overwhelming majority said
they would never do it again. It seems no matter what you do, they bond to
each other (naturally) over you which causes many problems later. I don't
remember specifics, but cannot remember anyone saying they would do it again
or recommend it.

I got my second puppy when the first one was 3. The younger still bonded so
strongly to the older one it is hard to take #1 anywhere without taking #2
also (she howls). #1 can handle #2 being gone to dog shows but becomes
somewhat clingy during these periods. If anything happens to me, I have
already made arrangements for them to stay together (along with money to
support them).

René

"Fassen" wrote in message
...
Do any of you have experience with raising two pups (litter brothers) at
once? I'm considering buying two sighthound pups and would like some
advice, but nobody I know have any experience in that area.

I've done it. I don't recommend it.

I've been told over and over again that two same-sex pups at once is bound
to cause:

1: Waaay too much work

Too much is entirely subjective. However if you have a job (and I suspect
you do) it's rather difficult to give each puppy all of the ~individual~
time it needs. This is more than just being with/playing with/watching them.
You have to take the dog out, by itself and get him used to different
people, places and things. And then there's training which really needs to
be done individually.

2: Hierarchy fights from adolescence on

Very possible unless you are lucky. I kept litter sisters and thankfully
they are naturally very different in terms of where they want to fit into
the pack. Make sure you neuter the boys or else you could be in trouble when
a bitch comes into heat. Also make sure the breeder is willing to take one
back in case you find you can't deal with both.

3: Separation anxiety when the dogs are separated, no matter how much I
train them separately

This is the one that nailed me. Brenna, one of the two, has some serious
separation anxiety. She doesn't need to be with her sister, or even me, my
husband or one of the other dogs (I have a total of 5) specifically but it
has to be _someone_. She never got used to being alone and leaving her at
the vet's is an ordeal. If you do this, you MUST make sure that the dogs are
separated for hours at a time and over night on cccasion as youngsters so
that they learn to handle it. And I don't mean in different areas of the
apartment. You'll need someone to take one, and then the other so that they
learn independence from you and their littermate.

I myself don't see how two brothers will automatically fight for
dominance, if I raise/train them with that possibility in mind.

Training will have very little to do with it. It's more dependent on their
innate temperaments. It's also easier to have two dogs of opposite sex.


And I could get the
same problem if I got a mild tempered pup first and then a more dominant
pup later.

You could have the same problem, but unlikely in the specific instance you
mention. IME, if you have dogs that are of obviously differing "seats" in
the heirarchy, you run into less problems. I'm lucky in that my dogs do not
want to occupy the same spaces in our pack. My oldest are a clear dominant
male and a Beta female. Then there are her daughters, the dominant female
and the omega female. And then there's Zepar, who may offer a bit of a
challenge but is not a dominant male. Delphi, the oldest bitch, gave way
readily to her daughter because Delphi really has no desire to lead. It's
when you have two dogs that both want to be tops that you have issues.

So, does anyone have any experience to share?

Puppies are always more work than you think they'll be. Trust me. Seriously,
as someone who's done it twice I recommend one puppy at a time. You always
feel like someone is getting short changed, and they probably are. If you
live alone it can be overwhelming to always have to deal with them both.
Training is constant.

The positives are that they do entertain each other and keep each other busy
sometimes, and they offer eadch other companionship. I wouldn't give up any
of my dogs but if I had it to do over I would get puppies one at a time. I'm
glad Zepar is the only puppy I have right now. He's more than enough.

--
-Andrea Stone
Saorsa Basenjis
http://www.trollsnest.com/saorsa

wrote in message ...
On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:31:26 +0200 Fassen whittled
these words:
Do any of you have experience with raising two pups (litter brothers) at
once? I'm considering buying two sighthound pups and would like some
advice,
but nobody I know have any experience in that area.

Yes. I wouldbn't want to repeat the experience.

[snip]
My guess is that you will do it regardless of the advice received because
you have decided that is what you want to do. You understand the down
sides. Now you are looking for people who will tell you that all thaose
risks are just hog wash and that you can succeeed in your plans. You will
get those people because that's the way it is.

Funny thing is, nobody has ever said anything about potential *positive*
sides of having two pups at once. I can think of several, with "company
and
playmate" being number 1.

Well since your response to the risks has been that you get those risks at
anytime you get a second might I point out the same applies. You get that
companiopnship "company and playmate" benefit anytime you get a second
dog.

So, does anyone have any experience to share?

You really don't want the experiences that support the suggestion that it
is a bad idea. You really want people to report to your their successes
to the contrary. There are such because none of this is 100%. Alll
people are telling you is the *risks* involved in starting with
littermates. If you choose to embrace those risks you are free to do so.
Just recognize that *some* of those risks, if they actually occur, can
impair the dog for life. It might not happen. All might be well. But if
it does happen it is the dog that pays the price. Damn the torpedos, full
speed ahead!


--
Diane Blackman

Diane,

You're entirely wrong in thinking I don't want the negative sides to having
two pups at once. I just don't want them from people who've never tried it,
which is what I've been getting until now. That's why I posted my questions
here. I'm a bit disappointed that you interpret my original post as being
about just wanting success stories. I want both sides.

I've read the 8 answers posted so far, and I get the picture that raising
two pups at once has been a predominantly negative experience for all who
have done it. Coming from dog lovers, that makes quite an impression. The
three points which I mentioned (too much work, dominance problems,
separation anxiety) seem to be very common. Many of the posters advice
against two intact brothers, and neutering dogs is not allowed in my country
unless there's a medical condition.

Of course, training two pups/adolescents will be a logistical nightmare,
especially as I'm single. I can't expect my friends in the neighborhood to
babysit every day, so all the training work will fall on me. And sighthounds
are hardly ever available as rescues (professional dog racing is not allowed
here, a.f.a.I.k), so I'd have to get them from puppyhood. So the question
is, how much more work is two pups compared to one? And my impression from
the replies so far is that it's just too much work, that there are too many
risks, and that nobody would do it again.

I currently have a 3 years old mastiff who I'll have to put to sleep this
summer. He got bitten in the neck when he was a wee pup, and has gradually
developed calcifications in four dorsal vertebrae. This is causing him pain
and making him aggressive towards strangers who want to pet him as well as
any dog who wants to play. He'd eventually become paralyzed if I were to
keep him going. Having this dog, and seeing him get gradually worse, has
been extremely tough, and I've had to change my lifestyle almost completely
for him. I guess this is the main reason why I've thought that having two
pups would be "nothing" in comparison to what I'm dealing with now. I say
"nothing" because I realize that it would still be a lot of work - I even
realize that it will be more work than I expect. And I do expect days of
intense frustration, even tears.

But I would also expect fun and good days in equal amounts. And that's where
the posters so far have poured cold water in my blood. What they remember of
their own experiences is that it was far too much work. Nobody mentions fun
or good days. There are no success stories. Nobody says, "this is what we
did, and it worked just fine". Only AndreaS mentions positives: they keep
eachother busy and entertain eachother. But she still wouldn't do it again.

And like I said, with all this coming from dog lovers, it does make an
impression. If anyone had had any good experiences with raising two same-sex
pups, they'd have mentioned it.

I guess, then, that I might very well bite over more than I can chew if I
get two pups at once. It's a pity, because I do want two dogs, and would
rather get them through puppyhood while I'm still at the university (I have
two years left, but the last year will be too hectic to raise a pup). And
when I get back to a full time job it will be much harder to have a pup. But
I wouldn't want to get two brothers now, and see them turn into unhappy,
dysfunctional dogs because I didn't have the wits to listen to advice.

Rox

"Fassen" wrote
Do any of you have experience with raising two pups (litter brothers) at
once? I'm considering buying two sighthound pups and would like some
advice,
but nobody I know have any experience in that area.

We have two 7 month old Jack Russell Terriers. They are not littermates, but
from the same breeder and born two days apart. They are also one male and
one female. Not exactly what you're asking about, but still two pups at
once.

Disadvantages:
Cost! Buying, vaccinating, spaying etc as they both need things done at the
same time.
Training: Hard to do as you have to take them separately. With the best of
intentions, this still does not always happen. At least when we go to the
actual training school there are two of us, so we can take a dog each. You
don't have that, unless you can rope a friend into coming each week.
Energy: They have sooooo much of it and can go totally crazy together at
times.
Companionship: They can become too attached. We haven't had to deal with
this as a problem yet, but may have to at some point.

Advantages:
Companionship: They always have a friend when we are out (at work etc). They
are obviously the best of friends.
Fun: The way they play together, and with us, is often more fun than just
one dog can be, just by the fact that there are two so there are different
interactions possible.

Even though there are more disadvantages listed, I wouldn't say it has been
an overly negative experience. Okay, it has not been easy and it was quite a
while before I got a full night's sleep, but I'm still glad we got the two.
As I said, they are only 7 months old, so I can't say anything about the
long term implications.

Hope that is helpful and adds to other ideas you have heard.

--
Leigh Harris
Perth, Western Australia
www.leighharris.info
(Real email is bearleigh at bigpond dot com)