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Syberian Husky Gone Mad???



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 28th 05, 08:56 PM
toothpick
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Default Syberian Husky Gone Mad???

Hello all. We have a 3 year old solid white male Siberian Husky that
has been great until recently. I know all about the hard headed, "Ill
do what I want" attitude huskies have. I have grown used to this and
haven't tried to hard to teach him much because he doesn't want to
be taught. He will sit and lay down, but that's about it. And he will
only do that if you give him a treat for it.

Besides this, he has been really sweet to everybody and everything,
except cats. But everything changed in one day. One of our kittens
wondered into his pin (it's a HUGE fenced in yard) and he seemed to
have a great time with it. When I found him he was tossing the kitten
around like a rag doll. The kitten was still alive (somehow) so I ran
to try and rescue it. I chased him for 10 minuets with a screaming
kitten in his mouth before I got hold of him.

It was at this point that my sweet husky turned into a daemon dog! When
I tried to get the kitten from him he growled furoshisly and bit me
several times. I am not one to be dominated by a dog and have NO fear
of them, even if they are trying to tear me apart. Thus I showed him
who is boss in the way I have been taught to do, I rolled him over on
his back and forced him to submit. But I am not sure how well he
submitted as he was still growling the whole time.

Needless to say, the kitten didn't make it. And it appears my huskies
attitude never recovered either. This happened over a year ago but he
still growls at anyone whenever they try to scorn him for something, or
if they try and touch his neck/collar in any way.

Today I yelled at him for tearing up a light in our yard and he bared
his teeth and growled at me as if he was about to attack. I immediately
grabbed his legs and flipped him on his back in the submissive position
and bared MY teeth at him and he bit my hand, hard! Like I am bleeding
hard.

I LOVE my husky, but I love my 1.5 year old son more. I cannot have a
dog that is going to think he is the boss of my family. Especially if
he is willing to hurt us.

Please somebody tell me how I should cope with this problem and get my
husky to realize he is NOT the leader of my pack, I am??? If he ever
bites me again, my wife, or my son I am going to have to get rid of
him. And I would really hate to do that as we all love him. But
something is wrong with him.

ANY ADVISE PLEASE!

  #2  
Old April 28th 05, 09:54 PM
Melinda Shore
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In article . com,
toothpick wrote:
Please somebody tell me how I should cope with this problem and get my
husky to realize he is NOT the leader of my pack, I am???


It seems more likely to me that the issue here is that your
dog can't figure out why you've started getting aggressive
with him and is trying to protect himself. I wouldn't swear
to it but Siberians, as easy as they are to get along with
in general, will tend to become defensive more easily than
some other breeds. I've seen other Siberians turn into fear
biters when their owners alpha rolled them or were otherwise
heavy-handed.

I think that the key to your problem, actually, is your
decision not to do much training because the dogs are
"hard-headed." Siberians can do quite well with obedience
training as long as you take care not to bore them and not
to be heavy-handed. In fact, if you don't put energy into
training them they're more likely to become bored, ill-
mannered, pushy, and uncooperative.

I really don't think there's much you can do about cats
except keep them away from your dog. Siberians are
extremely predatory. That does not mean, however, that
they're predatory towards humans. Dollars to doughnuts that
the change in the dog's behavior has to do with a change in
*your* behavior, not because he got to kill a kitten. I'd
lay off the alpha rolls and all that physical dominance
nonsense and start making the dog work for everything it
gets (no dinner unless he sits for it, no pets unless he
sits for it, and so on). I'd also give serious
consideration to talking to a behaviorist, because I'm
pretty sure you're not going to be able to work this out on
your own. And I'd definitely, *definitely* get the dog into
a beginner obedience class.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
  #3  
Old April 29th 05, 12:01 AM
toothpick
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I have been doing the alpha rolling and ear holding (which he hates
even more for some reason) ever since he was a puppy, its nothing new.
But during that time he was strictly an inside dog and I did it to
teach him house manners. Which did work. He is very well house trained.
But the MASSIVE amount of hair shedding, and his desire to RUN,
convinced us to fence in the yard and let him out about a year ago.
Since then I have only been aggressive towards him 2 times, for killing
my cat and eating my yard lights.

You refer to "fear biting," that could be why he did it I guess. But it
certainly seemed like EXTREME ANGER biting to me. After letting him up
he walked around with his nose in the air like he had just kicked my
butt and was proud of it. It seems clear to me that he wants to
dominate me.

The main thing I can't figure out is why he growls whenever you touch
his neck. For example, I was petting him yesterday and he was licking
my hand and wagging his tail at the same time he was aggressively
growling because I had my hand on his neck to pet him. And when I walk
him on a leash, which is his FAVORITE thing to do, he growls every time
I tug on the leash. But he doesn't seem to mean it in an aggressive
way. Yet today he growled and bit me so I am somewhat confused on that
issue.

I think you are 100% correct that the source of his problem is the fact
that I stopped working with him after putting him outside. It seems he
has now lost respect for me as the alpha because I am not training him
any more. I will start working with him more and making him obey for
food and treats. Hopefully he will come back around.

One other thing I forgot to mention. I just recently got another female
Sibe to keep him company. She is about 7 months old. They play all day
and seem very happy but they have VERY different personalities. She is
extremely submissive, and extremely FAT, he is EXTREMELY dominate, and
eats very little. He spends most of the day biting her neck and holding
her down on the ground until she yelps. Is this normal? I am beginning
to think the male husky might just be a ******* (pun intended)?

  #4  
Old April 29th 05, 12:15 AM
Diana
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"toothpick" wrote in message
oups.com...
[..]
..
Since then I have only been aggressive towards him 2 times, for killing
my cat and eating my yard lights.


You've said it all in this senence - you are not capable of thinking like a
dog, an he cannot be blamed for not being able to think like a human.

Find a good sibe rescue and get yourself a goldfish.

Diana


  #5  
Old April 29th 05, 12:17 AM
Melinda Shore
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In article .com,
toothpick wrote:
The main thing I can't figure out is why he growls whenever you touch
his neck.


The dogs of that breed have excellent memories and hold a
grudge. Seriously. I'm not keen on pushing dogs around to
start with but with Siberians it's likely to backfire, as
you've discovered.

For example, I was petting him yesterday and he was licking
my hand and wagging his tail at the same time he was aggressively
growling because I had my hand on his neck to pet him. And when I walk
him on a leash, which is his FAVORITE thing to do, he growls every time
I tug on the leash. But he doesn't seem to mean it in an aggressive
way. Yet today he growled and bit me so I am somewhat confused on that
issue.


You need to do two things: 1) forget about this "dominance"
crap and start thinking about leadership instead, and 2)
find a good trainer and get the dog into classes. I'd also
think long and hard about finding a behaviorist - you've now
got a potentially very serious problem and need some outside
help.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
  #6  
Old April 29th 05, 01:08 AM
Tara
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toothpick wrote:

I have been doing the alpha rolling and ear holding (which he hates
even more for some reason) ever since he was a puppy, its nothing new.


Well, it was incredibly stupid and wrong to do then, and its even
wronger to continue with it now.

But during that time he was strictly an inside dog and I did it to
teach him house manners. Which did work. He is very well house trained.


In other words, he lived with you and you were a part of his "pack" so
he put up with physical aggression from you as a part of living with
you. Now that he doesn't live with you anymore, why would you think that
you have any "insurance" to be getting away with getting ridiculously
aggressive with your dog?

But the MASSIVE amount of hair shedding, and his desire to RUN,
convinced us to fence in the yard and let him out about a year ago.


Wow. There are brushes, and you can easily use a fenced in outdoor area
to *exercise* your dog without banishing him to a life alone outside.

Since then I have only been aggressive towards him 2 times, for killing
my cat and eating my yard lights.


And you've also greatly diminished any relationship you might have had
with him to begin with. So it stands to reason you're not going to get
away with just popping out there and attacking him when it makes sense
*to you*....especially when it makes no sense at all *to him*.

You refer to "fear biting," that could be why he did it I guess. But it
certainly seemed like EXTREME ANGER biting to me.


Why would one automatically exclude the other?

After letting him up
he walked around with his nose in the air like he had just kicked my
butt and was proud of it. It seems clear to me that he wants to
dominate me.


Um no. I seriously doubt that. Who taught you that's the only way dogs
interact with anyone else? That's simply untrue- and when handled poorly
(as in this case) it only teaches the dog to be aggressive to humans.
And that's just what's happened so far.

The main thing I can't figure out is why he growls whenever you touch
his neck. For example, I was petting him yesterday and he was licking
my hand and wagging his tail at the same time he was aggressively
growling because I had my hand on his neck to pet him. And when I walk
him on a leash, which is his FAVORITE thing to do, he growls every time
I tug on the leash. But he doesn't seem to mean it in an aggressive
way. Yet today he growled and bit me so I am somewhat confused on that
issue.


You've likely created an ambivalent emotional state in the dog, coupled
with a LOT of confusion. He didn't even know he was doing anything
wrong, and *from his perspective* you have this tendency to just out and
out attack him for no reason.

I think you are 100% correct that the source of his problem is the fact
that I stopped working with him after putting him outside.


Yes, although part of the problem is that you put him outside. Unless
you spend over 8 hours each and every day out there *with him*, he is
alone for roughly 22 hours a day. This is NOT good for a dog, and its a
recipe for behavioral problems. Although at the very least, I would do
as Melinda suggested and get yourself a *qualified* behaviorist and
enroll him in a positively based obedience class ASAP.

It seems he
has now lost respect for me as the alpha because I am not training him
any more.


Please stop looking at this (and at your dog) solely in terms of this
Alpha crap. Just stop. a) its not necessarily a very good way to train
in the first place and b) you're clearly not doing it in a way that's
safe at all.

He's got no leadership, its true. But mainly he simply has very little
relationship to the humans in his family at all. He has to be *part* of
a pack for Alpha theory to even be a factor (and frankly, I think its
misused by for more people than just you, so I tend to not even use the
word "alpha" in my own training). Instead, you moved him outside, gave
him his own little world with no leadership, no mental challenges and no
community, and then when he doesn't behave the way you haven't taught
him not to, you go out and "dominate" (code word for corporal punish)
your dog.....the same dog you effectively threw *out* of your "pack" in
the first place.

I will start working with him more and making him obey for
food and treats. Hopefully he will come back around.


Please only do this under the guidance of a behaviorist as you honestly
run the risk of making this much much worse unless you learn a different
way of approaching this than you have been.

One other thing I forgot to mention. I just recently got another female
Sibe to keep him company. She is about 7 months old. They play all day
and seem very happy but they have VERY different personalities. She is
extremely submissive, and extremely FAT, he is EXTREMELY dominate, and
eats very little. He spends most of the day biting her neck and holding
her down on the ground until she yelps. Is this normal? I am beginning
to think the male husky might just be a ******* (pun intended)?


He's clearly poorly socialized and poorly trained. He may also have a
not so great temperament, but even if that's the case, he's getting no
help from his people. I'm not clear on why you were having budding (and
serious) problems with your existing dog and yet you went out and got
another one. If she's just out there with him as her main source of
socialization, it stands to reason you're simply going to end up with
two serious behavioral problems on your hands.

Tara
  #7  
Old April 29th 05, 01:10 AM
toothpick
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I cannot think like a dog? Actually I learn a lot by watching how wolfs
(this breed is very close to their nature) act in a pack. Have you ever
looked at pack dogs in the wild? When the alpha male (thats me) is not
pleased with the behavior of another in the pack he will bite his ears
and roll him onto his back and stare him in the face till the other dog
looks away and submits. This is how dogs keep their pack in order. This
is some dogs nature. Sure this does not apply to a golden retreiver as
they have NEVER been pack animals and have ALWAYS been domesticated.
Sibe's on the other hand, are about as close to wild wolfs as you can
get. They are pack animals and have the same customs as wild wolfs do.

Try reading some books and watching discovery specials on Husky's in
their natural environment before you tell me I am stupid.

  #8  
Old April 29th 05, 01:12 AM
Tara
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toothpick wrote:

I cannot think like a dog? Actually I learn a lot by watching how wolfs
(this breed is very close to their nature) act in a pack. Have you ever
looked at pack dogs in the wild? When the alpha male (thats me) is not
pleased with the behavior of another in the pack he will bite his ears
and roll him onto his back and stare him in the face till the other dog
looks away and submits. This is how dogs keep their pack in order. This
is some dogs nature. Sure this does not apply to a golden retreiver as
they have NEVER been pack animals and have ALWAYS been domesticated.
Sibe's on the other hand, are about as close to wild wolfs as you can
get. They are pack animals and have the same customs as wild wolfs do.

Try reading some books and watching discovery specials on Husky's in
their natural environment before you tell me I am stupid.


Um, if you don't include attributions, no one here has any idea who you
are responding to.

Tara
  #9  
Old April 29th 05, 01:15 AM
Tara
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toothpick wrote:

I cannot think like a dog? Actually I learn a lot by watching how wolfs
(this breed is very close to their nature) act in a pack. Have you ever
looked at pack dogs in the wild? When the alpha male (thats me) is not
pleased with the behavior of another in the pack he will bite his ears
and roll him onto his back and stare him in the face till the other dog
looks away and submits. This is how dogs keep their pack in order. This
is some dogs nature. Sure this does not apply to a golden retreiver as
they have NEVER been pack animals and have ALWAYS been domesticated.
Sibe's on the other hand, are about as close to wild wolfs as you can
get. They are pack animals and have the same customs as wild wolfs do.

Try reading some books and watching discovery specials on Husky's in
their natural environment before you tell me I am stupid.


Ok, I figured out who you responded to.

What is with you and this overly macho Alpha crap?

Melinda (who responded to you at least TWICE) is FAR more experienced in
SIbes than you could hope to be....and she gave you very good advice.

Diana put it more succinctly (and sure, a little more harshly) but she's
not far off the mark either.

You're not a frigging wolf....and neither is your dog! If your precious
"alpha" nonsense was working out so well for you, then why on earth are
you here with a behavioral problem that is spinning out of control?

Get over it and get a new training model. Hopefully before this one gets
your present dog euthed.

Tara
  #10  
Old April 29th 05, 01:42 AM
Michael A. Ball
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On 28 Apr 2005 12:56:16 -0700, "toothpick" wrote:

Hello all. We have a 3 year old solid white male Siberian Husky that
has been great until recently. I know all about the hard headed, "Ill
do what I want" attitude huskies have. I have grown used to this and
haven't tried to hard to teach him much because he doesn't want to
be taught...


I am not one to be dominated by a dog and have NO fear
of them, even if they are trying to tear me apart. Thus I showed him
who is boss in the way I have been taught to do, I rolled him over on
his back and forced him to submit. But I am not sure how well he
submitted as he was still growling the whole time...


I might be the only one to do so, but I noticed that you didn't mention
your dog's name. To me, that suggests you two aren't very close. How
unfortunate.

I'm not an expert, but I just can see how alpha rolling really helps. I
believe dogs that are in greatest need of improvement are also the least
responsive to alpha rolling.

I'm not sure you "know all about the hard headed, "Ill
do what I want" attitude huskies have." Else, you'd have realized this
is not something you should "have grown used to." This is the sort of
thing we need to nip in the bud, at the earliest possible point.

I believe Melinda's recommendations are truly sound. The physical
manipulation I use with certain shelter dogs involves requiring them to
pass close to me, move to a different point in their run, or using a
short leash to compel them to walk near me.

A few weeks back, I met a large, mixed dog at the shelter. He growled
and showed his teeth the first two days, just growled early on the third
day, and was very happy to see me on the fourth day (the last time I saw
him). I was thrilled at his progress.

I think there is a very important lesson for all of us, in your
experience.

When I die, I want to go where dogs go!
 




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