Okay, here's my dilemma. I have posted here before regarding a new adopted
Jack Russell that is about a year old now. We have been spending a great
deal of time on the training part like sit, fetch, etc. But we're still
having some problems with a grumpy dog in the evening and when he is tired.

This dog was previously mistreated. ( I hesitate to say abused because I
don't think there was a lot of hitting but the dog was put in a kennel as
punishment).

The major difficulty now is that when we return from a walk or from swimming
and we reach down to remove his harness, the dog goes bananas growling and
snapping. He even nipped me last night and broke skin. We have NEVER
raised a hand to this dog. We have used the "flip over on back" method and
try to "alpha"betize ourselves but that doesn't seem to be effecting any
change. We have tried different methods of removing the harness like
getting on the floor, calling him up on a chair so he's at our level,
distracting him with toys, etc. But when it comes to removing that harness
or collar, he gets stupid.

Any help or advice would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.

-Bill

On Mon, 9 May 2005 19:29:52 -0400 DollarBill whittled these words:

The major difficulty now is that when we return from a walk or from swimming
and we reach down to remove his harness, the dog goes bananas growling and
snapping. He even nipped me last night and broke skin. We have NEVER
raised a hand to this dog. We have used the "flip over on back" method and
try to "alpha"betize ourselves but that doesn't seem to be effecting any
change. We have tried different methods of removing the harness like
getting on the floor, calling him up on a chair so he's at our level,
distracting him with toys, etc. But when it comes to removing that harness
or collar, he gets stupid.

Any help or advice would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.

Go to a competent in person trainer. You will make progress MCUH faster
with in person help. And stop flipping your dog over - it obviously
hasn't helped and it doesn't do what you think it does. Unless your dog
accepts it (and obviously he hasn't) then all it does is cement a conflict
between you. Submission has to be GRANTED or it does not exist. You
cannot force it. You can, by getting in person aid in how to communicate
with your dog, learn how to get your dog's willing cooperation.


--
Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com/
http://dogplay.com/Shop/

Have you taken the dog into the vets for an evaluation?

I don't think the dog is stupid I think he's trying to tell you something
and you are missing the message. To me this is a sign the dog is in pain
from the walking or the harness it self and he is and responding the only
way he knows how to when you try to remove harness. I had Barney for almost
12 years and the ONLY time he ever responded this way to me or anyone else
was when he was in pain from his arthritis. Even a young dog can have
arthritis or something with it's spine that could be causing pain. Just
because you don't see physical signs of limping doesn't mean there isn't
something wrong. Dogs can be very good at hiding pain till it gets extreme
and then they get nasty.

Celeste


"DollarBill" wrote in message
...
Okay, here's my dilemma. I have posted here before regarding a new
adopted
Jack Russell that is about a year old now. We have been spending a great
deal of time on the training part like sit, fetch, etc. But we're still
having some problems with a grumpy dog in the evening and when he is
tired.

This dog was previously mistreated. ( I hesitate to say abused because I
don't think there was a lot of hitting but the dog was put in a kennel as
punishment).

The major difficulty now is that when we return from a walk or from
swimming
and we reach down to remove his harness, the dog goes bananas growling and
snapping. He even nipped me last night and broke skin. We have NEVER
raised a hand to this dog. We have used the "flip over on back" method
and
try to "alpha"betize ourselves but that doesn't seem to be effecting any
change. We have tried different methods of removing the harness like
getting on the floor, calling him up on a chair so he's at our level,
distracting him with toys, etc. But when it comes to removing that
harness
or collar, he gets stupid.

Any help or advice would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.

-Bill

"Spot" wrote in message
news:KtUfe.4783$7G.3594@trndny01...
Have you taken the dog into the vets for an evaluation?

Yep. He's in perfect health.

BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!

DollarBill wrote:
"Spot" wrote in message
news:KtUfe.4783$7G.3594@trndny01...
Have you taken the dog into the vets for an evaluation?

Yep. He's in perfect health.

"Melanie L Chang" wrote in message
...
DollarBill ) wrote:

: We have NEVER
: raised a hand to this dog. We have used the "flip over on back" method

These two sentences are contradictory.

Interesting. I never thought of it that way.

At the suggestion of a trainer that we will be seeing on Saturday, we have
begun with other methods of alpha-betizing ourselves such as walking with a
focus on keeping the dog behind or beside us. We change paces so he
recognizes that we are in control. This seems to be working great for the
last few days. We have put all his toys away and only let him have a few at
a time. After a walk today, I was playing a bit with him. When I laid on
the floor, he approached me with ease and layed down next to me. So I tried
something that I was told years ago and I put my chin over his head while
gently stroking his chest which he had opened up for me. He immediately got
that gaze in his eyes and seemed content with the situation. I only did it
for about 5-10 seconds so as not to agitate him.

I know your intentions were good, but as Diane said I think it would be
best to seek in-person help from someone who does not use physical
methods of training that focus on "dominance."

See above.

What I find strange about the behavior is that it occurs predominantly in
the evenings and particularly when we make an attempt to release him from
his lead and his collar after exercising. I'm hoping the general aspect of
conditioning ourselves as the alphas will cure this.

Thanks for the replies and I will keep y'all posted.

-Bill

"Melanie L Chang" wrote in message
...
DollarBill ) wrote:

: We have NEVER
: raised a hand to this dog. We have used the "flip over on back" method

These two sentences are contradictory.

Interesting. I never thought of it that way.

At the suggestion of a trainer that we will be seeing on Saturday, we have
begun with other methods of alpha-betizing ourselves such as walking with a
focus on keeping the dog behind or beside us. We change paces so he
recognizes that we are in control. This seems to be working great for the
last few days. We have put all his toys away and only let him have a few at
a time. After a walk today, I was playing a bit with him. When I laid on
the floor, he approached me with ease and layed down next to me. So I tried
something that I was told years ago and I put my chin over his head while
gently stroking his chest which he had opened up for me. He immediately got
that gaze in his eyes and seemed content with the situation. I only did it
for about 5-10 seconds so as not to agitate him.

I know your intentions were good, but as Diane said I think it would be
best to seek in-person help from someone who does not use physical
methods of training that focus on "dominance."

See above.

What I find strange about the behavior is that it occurs predominantly in
the evenings and particularly when we make an attempt to release him from
his lead and his collar after exercising. I'm hoping the general aspect of
conditioning ourselves as the alphas will cure this.

Thanks for the replies and I will keep y'all posted.

-Bill

"DollarBill" wrote in message
...
"Melanie L Chang" wrote in message
...
DollarBill ) wrote:

: We have NEVER
: raised a hand to this dog. We have used the "flip over on back" method

These two sentences are contradictory.

Interesting. I never thought of it that way.

At the suggestion of a trainer that we will be seeing on Saturday, we have
begun with other methods of alpha-betizing ourselves such as walking with
a
focus on keeping the dog behind or beside us. We change paces so he
recognizes that we are in control. This seems to be working great for the
last few days. We have put all his toys away and only let him have a few
at
a time. After a walk today, I was playing a bit with him. When I laid on
the floor, he approached me with ease and layed down next to me. So I
tried
something that I was told years ago and I put my chin over his head while
gently stroking his chest which he had opened up for me. He immediately
got
that gaze in his eyes and seemed content with the situation. I only did
it
for about 5-10 seconds so as not to agitate him.

I know your intentions were good, but as Diane said I think it would be
best to seek in-person help from someone who does not use physical
methods of training that focus on "dominance."

See above.

What I find strange about the behavior is that it occurs predominantly in
the evenings and particularly when we make an attempt to release him from
his lead and his collar after exercising. I'm hoping the general aspect
of
conditioning ourselves as the alphas will cure this.

Thanks for the replies and I will keep y'all posted.

UPDATE!!

So we saw the pro yesterday and WOW, I think I traded my dog in on another
one. After spending about 10 minutes with Rex (appropriately named), he
began to understand that he wasn't the boss anymore. It took a bit with the
choke collar but it wasn't at all what I had anticipated. The trainer told
us that it wouldn't be pretty and I was prepared for a whole lot of kicking,
screaming, etc. After just a few corrections with the choke collar, Rex was
putty in our hands. We took him for a good long walk when we got home and
he was just a charm. He was really pooped when we got home so we let him
chill for a few hours. When he awoke from his nap we fed him and then it
was out for another walk. Again he was fantastic. When we got home, I
started fussing with his collar (which just a few hours earlier really set
him off). I was forced to give him a few corrections and then he was fine.
I could tell he was a bit shell-shocked so I didn't press the matter. Just
let him rest as he had a busy day and his life was changing.

Today he's like a new dog. It's odd that in the few months we have been
walking him around our new neighborhood, nobody has noticed him. Last night
and today he found several new friends who all remarked on how well behaved
he was. I couldn't help but laugh.

We have another appointment Tuesday with the trainer for some followup but
I'm confident he won't need much help.

Soon we're starting on some extensive training for him including the agility
course and perhaps some search and rescue kind of stuff. I don't want him
to be a working dog but would like to give him a mission.

Thanks y'all for suggesting the pro trainer. This dog is just a treat now.

-Bill