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What does "bupkis" really mean



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 12th 05, 06:44 PM
external usenet poster
 
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Default What does "bupkis" really mean

When shelly reproached me that certain people in this group were
offended by my posts, I told her that I had no respect for people who
were offended by the truth. That all that those offended people had
been doing was to scream that Jerry lied, without actually bringing any
proof that what he said about them were lies. In all the instances that
I had checked, the quotes were all from actual posts, archived by
Google.

shelly replied that I should have been actually *asking* those
people if the lies in question have any basis in reality.

I certainly don't want to inadvertently offend anyone, and the thought
that I might have wronged an innocent and well-meaning dog lover with
my words started to torture me. To the extent that I felt that finding
out the truth and offering apologies (if warranted) was worth wasting a
few hours on Google. Of course, I could have taken the easy way out, as
suggested by shelly herself, and ask her and the others if Jerry's
"lies had any basis in reality". That would have been nice - and easy,
too.

Unfortunately, blind faith is not my cup of tea, so I had no choice but
to go back to Google and search some more.

In fact, I remembered, I *had* asked both shelly and Tara how they were
punishing their dogs, in a less traumatic way than praising them for
bad behavior. Tara flatly refused to talk about the subject, blaming my
ignorance and lack of manners. shelly was more accommodating, though my
insistence on details managed to make her lose her temper, too - like
this:

Me:

OK, what is it that you do say or do, when you catch them [shelly's

dogs]
in the act? And what happens if you see it post factum?


shelly:

"no" or "uh-uh." honestly, are you paying *any* attention to
what i write?


[This is what shelly had previously written:

in the training stages, incorrect choices get them a no/uh-uh.
later, incorrect choices earn them either bupkis or a
refresher course in How to Pleas Me So That Dog Receives VGTs.
for example, barking in my face earns a dog bupkis, while
blowing off a recall will result in a walk-down and a recall
refresher course.]


Lucy:

What is "bupkis"?


shelly:

bupkis =3D nothing.


http://groups-beta.google.com/group/.../09064025ec4c=
36ee?hl=3Den

Still puzzled, but reluctant to pursue the topic (perhaps it was just I
who was having stubborn dogs who were unimpressed with me doing
"nothing" and were just happy to carry on whatever they were doing, or
maybe shelly's "bupkis" method was so efficient with her dogs,
indeed?), I tried my luck with a Google search on our "shelly" and the
inexistent "prong collar", and - surprise, surprise! - here was shelly
herself, talking about her training method:

elliott does best with both stronger praise and stronger
corrections. i can use exaggeraged yeah's and good boy's
with him. i also use a deeper, louder voice when i tell him
no, oi, or uh-uh. i also sometimes use a prong collar with
him.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/.../cc55033185dc=
77d1?hl=3Den

Of course, shelly doesn't SHOUT at her dogs - she just uses a "deeper,
louder voice". And sometimes bupkis: "a prong collar with him".

Does she, "sometimes"? Strange, in her posts to me, she never mentioned
the prong collar - it must have slipped her mind. But here shelly is
even more explicit:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/.../c646a6baeee3=
e368?hl=3Den

elliott, after being trained with a prong collar, walks nicely on
both martingale and buckle collars, as well.

So "uh-uh" and "no" and "bupkis" don't really work, unless there's a
prong collar somewhere, too. Sometimes. That is, when training the dog.

But oh, don't get the wrong idea that the prong collar as punishment is
anywhere more dog-aggressive than sincere and enthusiastic praise! When
somebody else said:

The prong collar is a bit harsh; I saw it used on a psychotic
7-month old German shepherd during obedience class and it
looked a bit harsh, though it did work for that dog who was
already so aggressive and large that his owners were
terrified of him.


shelly reassuringly replied:

a prong collar is actually fairly gentle, especially when
compared with standard buckle collars and choke collars.
next time you're in a pet supply store, try one on your arm or
leg. they pinch, but because of the way they are constructed,
they apply pressure uniformly around the whole neck, instead
of just at the front of the neck. that makes them gentler on
the dog's windpipe.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/.../b09437eb7709=
7193?hl=3Den

Gentler than praise for bad behavior, shelly? And doesn't it scare the
dog, shelly? Isn't there at least the possibility that the dog might
panick, when suddenly feeling the pinch on his neck?

And then, when the other person said:

Spike is just trying to hunt inappropriate objects; I think I
can at least get him to cool it if food is his reward.


shelly continued:

good luck! if he's really food motivated, that may work. it
didn't for my high-prey boy though. he's never chased cars,
but crittering is his number one favoritest activity.
teaching him not to bolt after animals while i was walking him
was no picnic. distracting him with food did not work, as his
brane was incapable of noticing it when there was a tasty
bunny RIGHTOVERTHERE.
using a prong collar allowed me to break his attention away
from critters and refocus it on me. his reaction to the prong
collar was "oh yeah ding!. i'm attached to a leash and
there's someone at the other end of it."

Well, the prong collar must be one of those VGTs (Very Good Things)
that make shelly's dogs come straight to her, forgetting anything else
that might have stirred their interest.

And here's some more about those VGTs:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/.../9f40d6c50a37=
a05a?hl=3Den

When another na=EFve poster is trying to suggest that

The lead is just something to hold on to,


here goes shelly:

sometimes. sometimes not. sometimes the lead can be used to
give a correction to the dog. and, please keep in mind that
correction does not equal abuse. i give my dogs all sorts of
corrections. some of them involve leashes or collars, but
most often they are verbal or visual.

[=2E..]

The other person:

But then you are inflicting your will on him rather than
him making the decision that he wants to come to you.


shelly:

sometimes it's necessary to "inflict" one's will on one's dog.
life isn't all fun and games and there are times when the dog
needs to respond immediately without stopping to think about
whether or not they feel like obeying. believe me, my dogs
would rather chase Peter Cottontail than come to me. i just
can't compete with tasty bunnies. for my dogs' own good,
though, it's vital that they come immediately when called.
that required "inflicting" my will on them and i don't feel
the least bit badly about it.

[=2E..]

But no matter what, but jerking him on the lead, you have
hurt him ~ maybe not a lot but a bit ~ that inflicting your
will and power on him and that breaks trust.


if you're jerking on the lead and hurting the dog, perhaps.
if you're giving a fair correction, no.

If you were to go up to your best friend and not say
anything but grab their shirt collar and start dragging
them to you with an angry face ~ what reaction would you
expect?


not a very good one. but no one in their right mind would
advise correcting a dog for something it hadn't yet been
taught. that would be abusive.

Yeah, that's really good to know.

Well, who was it that was telling lies around here?

So much about those Very Good Things that shelly's dogs know they can
count on shelly to give them, if they forget about chasing the bunny
and run straight to her, instead. shelly's dogs must be thrilled - not
a chance that they'd prefer Jerry's sound distraction and praise to the
gentle, considerate method their owner uses with them. Or, in shelly's
own words: no. Uh-uh. Bupkis.

Lucy

  #2  
Old May 12th 05, 06:49 PM
Melinda Shore
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article .com,
wrote:
When shelly reproached me that certain people [ ... ]


[Is that even grammatical?]

MORE INTEREST! LESS BORING, PLEASE!!

Many thanks.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
  #3  
Old May 12th 05, 07:29 PM
shelly
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Posts: n/a
Default

on 2005-05-12 at 10:44 wrote:

Still puzzled, but reluctant to pursue the topic (perhaps it
was just I who was having stubborn dogs who were unimpressed
with me doing "nothing" and were just happy to carry on
whatever they were doing,


context is everything. dogs who are barking in your face
generally are trying to get your attention. remove that
attention (IOW give them bupkis by removing the thing they are
seeking) and you remove the incentive to engage in that
particular bad behavior.

or maybe shelly's "bupkis" method was so efficient with her
dogs, indeed?), I tried my luck with a Google search on our
"shelly" and the inexistent "prong collar", and - surprise,
surprise! - here was shelly herself, talking about her
training method:


what "inexistent" prong collar? i don't believe we've ever
discussed prong collars. if you'd just asked me about them, i
would've told you that i've used them. i've made no s33kr1t
of which training tools i've used and how i've used them.

elliott does best with both stronger praise and stronger
corrections. i can use exaggeraged yeah's and good boy's
with him. i also use a deeper, louder voice when i tell him
no, oi, or uh-uh. i also sometimes use a prong collar with
him.


oh noes!1!! i've been found out! if you'll note, elliott is
11 years old. i do not work with him in the same way now as i
did when he was a wee pup. i've changed, he's changed, and
we've both learned to understand each other better. believe
it or not, that's a *good* thing.

yes, i *can* talk to elliott in a loud/exaggerated/strong tone
of voice. i could even yell at him, if i wished. he couldn't
care less. as far as he's concerned, it's *all* great good
fun. however, since the arrival of harriet, we've both
learned to communicate with more restraint as well as to rely
more on non-verbal cues. **** happens and, as intelligent
beings, we make adjustments.

Of course, shelly doesn't SHOUT at her dogs - she just uses a
"deeper, louder voice". And sometimes bupkis: "a prong collar
with him".


i don't shout at my dogs while training them and bupkis does
not equal a prong collar.

Does she, "sometimes"? Strange, in her posts to me, she never
mentioned the prong collar - it must have slipped her mind.
But here shelly is even more explicit:


i had no reason to mention a prong collar to you as you
never asked me about them.

But oh, don't get the wrong idea that the prong collar as
punishment is anywhere more dog-aggressive than sincere and
enthusiastic praise! When somebody else said:


i'd like to see you teach leash manners to a dog like elliott
using "good dog!" haw!11!!!!!!!

a prong collar is actually fairly gentle, especially when
compared with standard buckle collars and choke collars.
next time you're in a pet supply store, try one on your arm or
leg. they pinch, but because of the way they are constructed,
they apply pressure uniformly around the whole neck, instead
of just at the front of the neck. that makes them gentler on
the dog's windpipe.


all true.

Gentler than praise for bad behavior, shelly?


how, exactly, do you plan to teach leash manners to a
dedicated puller who doesn't even know you exist, using
"praise"? be as specific as possible, please, because i'm
planning on getting a Siberian Husky in the not too distant
future and they are notorious pullers. i'd hate to think i
was abusing a dog when i could be using your obviously
superior methods. TIA.

And doesn't it scare the dog, shelly?


what doesn't? prong collars? of course not. i wouldn't have
used one if it did.

Isn't there at least the possibility that the dog might
panick, when suddenly feeling the pinch on his neck?


yes, and the dog could be abducted by aliens and used for
experimentation. there are certain risks associated with
getting out of bed in the morning.

Well, the prong collar must be one of those VGTs (Very Good
Things) that make shelly's dogs come straight to her,
forgetting anything else that might have stirred their
interest.


for the record, i have never used a prong collar in teaching a
recall.

Well, who was it that was telling lies around here?


certainly not me.

--
shelly
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com/
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com/ (updated 4/3/05)
  #4  
Old May 12th 05, 07:29 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Melinda Shore wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:
When shelly reproached me that certain people [ ... ]


[Is that even grammatical?]


You're right, it does sound kinda awkward. :-)

MORE INTEREST! LESS BORING, PLEASE!!


I walk my two dogs on a flexi with a splitter. Always. Never had any
problems with them (knock the wood). They always go to other dogs to
play with them, especially Clyde. I do ask the permission of the other
owner, if s/he objects I tell my dogs the other doggy doesn't want to
play, let's go, good dogs, and they come. A few days ago, Clyde almost
got me into trouble, though. He wanted to run after a kitten (his low
prey drive, you know!) and I told him "It's a good kitty, good boy!"
and you know what my good boy did? Went to the kitten and started to
lick him. I said, "Oh God, not again! Let's go, good boy, before it's
too late". It's how we got the first (and, hopefully, the last) two
cats we have now: Clyde started to lick them, and they followed him
everywhere. To this day.

Many thanks.


And many thanks to you, Melinda, for reading my boring stuff the minute
it is posted. :-)

Lucy

  #5  
Old May 12th 05, 07:33 PM
Melinda Shore
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article .com,
wrote:
I walk my two dogs on a flexi with a splitter.


MORE SMART! LESS IDIOTIC, PLEASE!!

Many thanks.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
  #6  
Old May 12th 05, 07:39 PM
shelly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

on 2005-05-12 at 11:29 wrote:

I walk my two dogs on a flexi with a splitter. Always. Never
had any problems with them (knock the wood).


no kidding. i assume you haven't a clue how dangerous that
is. or maybe you just don't care?

--
shelly
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com/
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com/ (updated 4/3/05)
  #7  
Old May 12th 05, 07:45 PM
shelly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

on 2005-05-12 at 14:33 wrote:

MORE SMART! LESS IDIOTIC, PLEASE!!


the thought of someone who is ignorant or uncaring enough to
yoke two dogs to the same Flexi, lecturing others about their
tool usage, is, um, well, i can't quite find the word for it,
but i assure you that it is, indeed, *something*. quite.

Many thanks.


don't hold your breath.

--
shelly
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com/
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com/ (updated 4/3/05)
  #8  
Old May 12th 05, 07:48 PM
Melinda Shore
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article e.net,
shelly wrote:
don't hold your breath.


Recently, on something I remember being embarrassed to watch
so it was either a reality show (yay, Uchenna and Joyce!) or
C-SPAN (yay, um, um, um, oh forget it), someone told a story
about a guy falling off the Empire State Building and as he
passed the 28th floor someone called out the window "How's
it going?" to which the guy responded "Just fine, so far".
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
  #9  
Old May 12th 05, 08:06 PM
shelly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

on 2005-05-12 at 14:48 wrote:

so it was either a reality show (yay, Uchenna and Joyce!)


wasn't that a relief? i was sick at the thought that they
might not win.

"How's it going?" to which the guy responded "Just fine, so
far".


ha!

--
shelly
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com/
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com/ (updated 4/3/05)
 




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