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  #1  
Old May 15th 05, 05:39 AM
John Ferman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default A First Time Visitor

I just became aware of this newsgroup. My wife and I were selected to
adopt a dog that had been rescued from a puppy mill - we have had her
now for 3 whole weeks. Her name is Libby and Libby's history is 4-5
years in a puppy mill of 1600 dogs (Located in Kingston, Wisconsin). At
first she cowered and everything and at any noise (door slams, dropped
keys, car horns from outside, and so on). We thought there would be a
housebreaking problem as she had been born on 'wire' and spent her
first 4-5 years in a cage having litters. But funny thing was she never
messed, except once when she got 'runny stool.' She does not yet
respond to her name (we use her name very frequently) and she does not
respond yet to 'treats.' My wife wants to start her on obedience
training soon but I am holding back because a trainers main strength is
to reinforce obedience with a treat. I would like to hear what other
have to say on this. We were advised to turn her life upside down - so
far all we have done is to make sure all food comes from our hand as
she eats (with the 'come Libby' preceding). There seems to be some
progress. She no longer cowers when I come near. She tends to follow me
around in the yard - but not too closely and if I stop and turn she
retreats. So I think she is still fearful but not as much as before.
This is my little introduction to the readers of this newsgroup. I hope
to come away with mant helpful ideas.
My email address is
  #2  
Old May 15th 05, 05:21 PM
Rocky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

John Ferman said in rec.pets.dogs.rescue:

My wife wants to start her on obedience
training soon but I am holding back because a trainers main
strength is to reinforce obedience with a treat.


There are as many training methods as there are trainers.
Recently, I've seen some trainers espouse treats as evil,
something I disagree with. Whatever motivates your particular
dog is important, and every dog is different. Toys, food, play,
praise - whatever works. Mixing them up works even better.

Is there a particular reason you want to avoid food as a
motivator?

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
  #3  
Old May 16th 05, 04:56 AM
John Ferman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , Rocky
wrote:

John Ferman said in rec.pets.dogs.rescue:

My wife wants to start her on obedience
training soon but I am holding back because a trainers main
strength is to reinforce obedience with a treat.


There are as many training methods as there are trainers.
Recently, I've seen some trainers espouse treats as evil,
something I disagree with. Whatever motivates your particular
dog is important, and every dog is different. Toys, food, play,
praise - whatever works. Mixing them up works even better.

Is there a particular reason you want to avoid food as a
motivator?


Yes, Libby does not take treats. We have tried lathering them up with
liver paste, salmon paste, all to no avail. We know this refusal is not
right and attribute it to something that went on in the puppy mill. The
premier training outfit here is the Twin Cities Obedience Training
Center. If you are familiar with the "Gentle Leader" collar, one of the
inventors of it is Ruth Foster, who is one of the founders of TCOTC.
  #4  
Old May 16th 05, 05:34 AM
Rocky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

John Ferman said in rec.pets.dogs.rescue:

Is there a particular reason you want to avoid food as a
motivator?


Yes, Libby does not take treats. We have tried lathering
them up with liver paste, salmon paste, all to no avail. We
know this refusal is not right and attribute it to
something that went on in the puppy mill.


There's no reason to train her with treats, then. As I said in
my previous post, no dog is the same. I've worked with plenty
of dogs in agility training, and while most are food motivated
there are many that are more motivated by a tug toy or a
squeaky.

I was intrigued by your original comment that implied (to me)
that you were, in general, avoiding training classes because "a
trainers main strength is to reinforce obedience with a treat."
This is simply not true in my experience.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
  #5  
Old May 17th 05, 10:35 PM
YourConscience
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

HOWEDY matty,

Rocky wrote:
John Ferman said in rec.pets.dogs.rescue:

Is there a particular reason you want to avoid food as a
motivator?


Yes, Libby does not take treats. We have tried lathering
them up with liver paste, salmon paste, all to no avail. We
know this refusal is not right and attribute it to
something that went on in the puppy mill.


THAT'S INSANE. THE DOG DON'T TRUST YOU TO ACCEPT TREATS.

There's no reason to train her with treats, then.


You mean on accHOWENT of you can't train a dog using bribery
on accHOWENT of there's ALWAYS sumpthin MOORE interesting
than your stinkin weenie, eh matty?

As I said in my previous post, no dog is the same.


A dog is a dog, matty.

I've worked with plenty of dogs in agility training,


That so? Does that include the "agility" dog "student"
of yours that bit you and swallowed his squeeky toy an
ripped you off for your stinkin bag of treats, matty?

and while most are food motivated


That's absurd, matty.

there are many that are more motivated by a tug toy or a squeaky.


Like that "student' of yours that bit you and swallowed
the toy and the treats and needed intestinal surgery,
thanks to you trying to bribe force and intimidate IT, matty?

I was intrigued by your original comment that implied (to me)
that you were, in general, avoiding training classes because "a
trainers main strength is to reinforce obedience with a treat."


On accHOWENT of the only other alternative is HURT the dog.

This is simply not true in my experience.


Your EXXXPERIENCE is that of a lying dog abusing punk
thug coward mental case who's own dog is DYIN from
STRESS INDUCED PSYCHOGENIC SEIZURES {) ; ~ )

--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.


You nealy cooked your "agility" dog who bye the bye
is NEXT TO DEAD LAST in your "agility" club by over
workin IT at a trial durin a heat wave.

Here's you hurtin and intimidating dogs and lying abHOWET it:

HOWEDY matty,

"Rocky" wrote in message
...

Melinda Shore said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
To put a dollar value on it: A "drop it" command would
have saved an acquaintance a $1000 surgery bill on her lab.


That so?

Seems the DROP IT command happens AFTER
the dog has TAKEN the FORBIDDEN FRUIT.

Said lab (not a puppy) wouldn't give up a squeaky
and, when presented with a treat in exchange,


You mean as a BRIBE to release what IT got
in ITS MHOWETH that YOU WANT MOORE
than the stinkin weenie you're offerin IT in
EXXXCHANGE?

EVEN A DOG GOT MOORE BRAINS than
to fall for THAT kinda IDIOCY.

made the decision to swallow the toy


As ANY critter would, being PURSUED by
a COMPETITOR, dog lovers. What do you
EXXXPECT a dog to do when you're fixin
to STEAL his BHOWENTY.

and then grab and swallow the treat bag.


THAT'S what The Amazing Puppy Wizard's
been TELLIN you bums in HIS N.I.L.I.F. Posts.

REMEMBER, matty?

The Amazing Puppy Wizard SEZ the dog is
fixin to tell yout to SHOVE IT and RIP YOU
OFF for your weenies and FIGHT you if you
offer a protest.

THAT'S HOWE COME your stinkin N.I.L.I.F.
program GETS SOME DOGS DEAD, matty.

I'm very sorry for what must have been a terrible
scare for your friend as well the risk to the dog,


MOST of HOWER DOG LOVERS here abHOWETS
have BEEN THROUGH the SAME SAME SAME SAME
for the SAME SAME SAME SAME REASON.

THAT'S HOWE COME The Amazing Puppy Wizard
goes "BWEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!"

REMEMBER NHOWE, matty, you lying dog
abusing punk thug coward MENTAL CASE?

BWEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!

but it's hard not to admire a dog with
advanced problem-solving skills.


BULLSHIT.

The dog attacked the bag of treats based on
PREDICTABLE NORMAL NATURAL INNATE
INSTINCTIVE REFLECIVE behavior.

A freakin CHIMPANZEE woulda seen THAT comin.

It was a scare for me, too.


That so, matty? No "skin off your nose," eh matty?
Hey? That's abHOWET HOWE and where leah got
bit, too.

How's this for problem-solving:


AllHOWE The Amazing Puppy Wizard to
CONsult HIS crystal ball. Ooops! SEZ you're
a lying dog abusing mental case and you
can't post your idiocy here abHOWETS no
doGgamened MOORE.

The dog went for the hand that was holding the
bag of treats, not the treat in the proffered hand.


SHAAAZZZAAAMMM?

In doing so, she scraped up my hand fairly well


The dog BIT you matty. JUST LIKE HOWE
The Amazing Puppy Wizard SEZ a dog is
SUPPOSED TO DO, matty, on accHOWENT
of THAT is the NATURE of the BEAST.

(I was attempting the trade


Dogs ain't into TRADING, matty. They
don't CARE abHOWET your "VALUES."

after my acquaintance stood still after saying
"drop it drop it drop it" and after her attempted
wrestling away didn't work).


You went an stuck your hand in the dog's face
to teach IT to RESPECT you for a WEENIE.

BTW, this was the second time this dog had
had bowel surgery and the Nth time she wouldn't
give up a toy to the owner.


Well, perhaps THAT'S on accHOWENT of
all the REINFORCEMENT you've done on
this behavior problem by REWARDING
BAD BEHAVIORS with TREATS, eh matty?

I told her to get her dog to the vet ASAP,


On accHOWENT of you fed IT a whole bag
of "treats" to wash DHOWEN a squeeky toy
you din't have the INTELLECT to GET THE
DOG TO PLAY WITH?

but she waited until the next day.


"Birds of a feather," eh matty.

--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.


"We Had "Come" Down Pat In A Few Reps
And You Could Have Knocked Me Down
When I Tried The Exercise With "Drop" And,
After A Few Reps In Different Spots Darwin
Practically *Threw* The Ball At My Feet On
Command," Ben.

Hi, Jerry.

I'm not sure that I'm a 100% convert, or that I agree
with (or even understand) 100% of what you say in this
manual ... BUT ... we had "come" down pat in a few
reps and you could have knocked me down when I tried
the exercise with "drop" and, after a few reps in
different spots Darwin practically *threw* the rubber
ball at my feet on command. He's still not perfect
(just a pup, after all, and he's stubborn enough to
want to push and test me a little bit more).

For what it's worth, I can see (as no doubt you have)
how your usenet manner is likely to rankle a few
folks, but that woman who advocates ear pulling and
beating with sticks deserves everything she gets. Even
if that was the only method that would work, I'd live
with my dog not fetching rather than do any of that.
(Darwin fetches enthusiastically and instinctively,
tho').

Best, ben

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D

You can't post here abHOWETS nodoGgamenedMOORE
on accHOWENT of you're a liar a dog abuser a coward
and active long term incurable MENTAL CASE:

From: Rocky )
Subject: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

(Jerry Howe) wrote in
=AD=ADet:

By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
dealing with behavior problems.


Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

"Rocky" wrote in message
. 1.4...

Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:


When you compare using sound and
praise to solve a problem with using
shock collars, hanging, and punishment
how can you criticize the use of sound?


There's nothing more to be said, then.
You've made up your mind.


But you've impressed me by mentioning
that you're a professor with 30 years of
experience.


So, can you cite some examples of
people recommending "shock collars,
hanging, and punishment"?
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.


BWWWAWHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

Jerome Bigge writes:
I do know that hitting, hurting your dog will often
make the dog either aggressive or a fear biter,
neither of which we want to do.


And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
No matter what Jerry Howe states.
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.


"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This (Destructive Separation
Anxiety). I've Suggested It To Quite A Few
Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY TIME
The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer, 33
Years Experience.

You DO remember KILLFILING MARILYN for
her coment above regarding her success with
The Puppy Wizard's Surrogate Toy Separation
Anxiety / Bed Time Calming / Submissive
Urination Technique (STSA/BTC/SUT)?

Perhaps you likeWIZE recall a pediatrician, Dr. Z,
who commented that his bed time calming technique
was quite similar?

You're scary Marilyn.
Marilyn must be quite a disturbed individual.
I feel very sorry for her and her family.


"His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry.
Your Method Takes Positive Training To The
Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All
Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank
You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce,
Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience.

BUT, giving you the benefit of the
doubt, please provide a quote (an
original quote, not from one of Jerry
Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
shows a regular poster promoting or
using an abusive form of training.


--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.


BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

Is that true, Marilyn?

Of course not~ but THIS IS:

"Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap,"
professora gingold.

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will
Seem Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe.
This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few Times
It Happens, But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."

"I have heard advice stating that you should
pre-load your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work
as efficiently as possible. What does this mean?

When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first
time, spray one squirt directly into the dog's mouth
and walk away. The dog won't be too thrilled with
this but just ignore him and continue your normal
behavior." --Mike Dufort author of the zero selling
book "Courteous Canines"

sinofabitch writes:
What I have said- repeatedly - is that he took
posts from two different people,
took pieces of them out of context,
cobbled them together,
then added his own words:


"Neatly," and "Smartly."

and a fake signature.


"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.

Which is exactly what he did.
The actual quote is misleading
when taken out of context, and Jerry's
faked "quote" is downright meaningless.


Here's Jerry's version


"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.


Here's yours;


"I dropped the leash, threw my
right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
grabbed her opposite foot with my
left hand, rolled her on her side,
leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
nipped her ear.
--Sara Sionnach


BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!!

That's INSANE. Ain't it.

"When you get bagged for lying you're MARKED
FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard's DADDY.

BWEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!

From: Mark Shaw )
Subject: Fido-Shock
Date: 2002-04-10 14:12:18 PST

In article [email protected]=AD=ADsc53,

"Coleman Brumley" wrote:
Has anyone had experience with this product (Fido-Shock).
If so, what model number, voltage, etc.?


If you're talking about the pet-grade hotwire system, I have
one. It's to keep boarded dogs out of my flowers.

I have a 1.5 year St Bernard who is scaling (not clearing --
more like falling over) our 4 foot fence to visit with owners
walking their dogs. I thought of raising the fence a foot or
so, but don't think that'll solve the problem. I've tried
watching her outside, and give a stern "NO" when she
props on the fence for a peek over it. No avail.
I've heard this product works after just a couple of tries.


I take it you're considering running the wire across the top
of the fence? I don't think I'd recommend that, although it
may be worth a try. Watch closely -- the one case where I saw
a hotwire used in this fashion caused the dog undue stress and
frustration, and he tried even harder to get over the fence.
So be prepared to take it down right away.

That was a Dane, though. With a Saint things might be
different.
--
Mark Shaw

culprit's dogs MURDERED her kat for
standin behind their SHOCK FENCE
just like HOWE liea's dog attacked
her only friend and tried to attack two
little kids for standin in her SHOCK ZONE:

From: culprit )
Subject: Video clip......."Nero" practicing bark alert,
while walking backwards
Date: 2004-06-05 18:53:50 PST

"micha el" =AD=ADm wrote in message
...

Anyway, contrary to your PR, this is what
it felt like to me when I got shocked by
Hope's collar.

It felt like a bomb going off in my
hand and forearm.


------------------------------=AD=AD--

"Tricia9999" wrote in message
...

how effective are these electronic fences in
keeping a dog on a property????


Some run through it. Others get shocked and become
too scared to go out in the yard anymore.
Just heard of a guy that has to rehome his dog,
because the dog got caught right in the path of
the shock and will now not go near his person,
won't go outside.

Just hides under a desk in the house.


BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHHAAAA!!!

"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.

"I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the
whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion once and
won't defend it further: any method can be cruel for some
dogs.

Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the
beginning, but we've come a long way since then.

Shet=AD=AD rusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post.

Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but she's never
been punished, even in the mildest way, for not coming.

Is it time for that?

What might I look for to tell?"

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s51...

After talking with the vet yesterday and watching
Cubbe all day today, I'm convinced that the shaking
is behavioral, not physical. Naturally I'll continue
keeping an eye on her, but when I add everything
up, I don't see symptoms of anything neurological--
and the vet agrees.

--Lia


"Things are beginning to get much worse day
by day and the vets seem unable to help.
http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorR=AD=ADufusMed.WMV
http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorR=AD=ADufusSmall.WMV"

THAT'S AN OCD. His owner CAUSED IT by
MISHANDLING and ABUSING his dog according
to the BEST advice of HOWER Gang Of Lying
Dog Abusing Punk Thug Cowards And ACTIVE
LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES and
ASYLUM ESCAPEES.

BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHHAAAA!!!

http://tinyurl.com/389al

In this video, the dog is constantly jerking his
head all around. I'm not SHORE why he's doing that.
If he's doing it because he is being shocked repeatedly
into getting onto that skateboard, then it is my
opinion that Fred Hassen is a dog abuser in the
extreme. As would anyone be, no matter how much
"experience" they had shocking dogs, nor how
nationally "respected" they are/were.

If, HOWEver, the dog is jerking his head all around
because he is happy and for no other reason, well,
then, never mind. I've just never seen this kind of
behavior from a dog before, so maybe Fred can
explain what would cause a dog to move his head
like that.

Here's a other:
http://tinyurl.com/2v9oh

"J1Boss" wrote in message
...

He was next to me and I could see his neck
muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
Janet Boss


"sionnach" wrote in message

...

"J1Boss" wrote in message
...


I can't imagine needing anything higher
than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
dog like a Lab.


An INSENSITIVE DOG???

I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.


BUT, giving you the benefit of the
doubt, please provide a quote (an
original quote, not from one of Jerry
Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
shows a regular poster promoting or
using an abusive form of training.


BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.


THAT'S sumpthin to be PR-HOWED abHOWET, eh matty?

"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.

lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.

- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.

Lynn K.

"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.

And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.

Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."

Lynn K.
------------------------------=AD=AD---

Paxil Princess psychoclown wrote:

"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks"
things is something you twisted out of
context, because you are full of bizarro
manure."

"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper
wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them more
sharply.

REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG.

Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of
as force-fetching: the ear pinch.

Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that
resisting your will fades in importance.

but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to
escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch
the ear against that if the dog still does not open its mouth,
get out the shotshell.

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the
collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the
dog will give in

With your hand on the collar and ear, say, 'fetch.'

Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick.

Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy.
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your
thumb; Say 'fetch' while pressing the dummy against its lips
and pinching its ear," lying frosty dahl.

"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.

Should I have refused to groom them?

Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."

Lynn K.

"You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said
Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar
Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House
Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.

lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:

"This Article Is Something We've Put Together
For SF GSD Rescue

From: Lynn Kosmakos )
Subject: I have a dog he has cats
Date: 1999/11/20

wrote:
How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.


Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K.

"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't
forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works
better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in
this situation.

Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but
should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how
to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can
take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that
time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or
whatever other reward system was being used."

8) Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.
Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong
works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the
dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to
you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat
walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is
why you have the dog muzzled).

If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the
cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your
voice and the collar.

This is important - the correction must be physically
very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need
to be corrected at all)."

Baghdad Bob Baghdadbob wrote in message
news:[email protected] .


Lynn, looks like he got you there if these
quotes are true.
In the posts below you take responsibility for
making those calls.
In your post above, you state you do not
make those calls.
Which one is it?


WORDS OF WISDOM
from our own Lynn Kosmakos
1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day
For Twenty Years

I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM


"I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-
depression) requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50
mg of Zoloft every day.

I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to
learn more, while happily sharing pertinent
information I have learned. But if I were ever
to post such sh*t, I would hope that every other
reader of this group would be rightfully outraged."

"Community is an evolutionary thing that we
earn the right to participate in by observing
the easily understood rules and contributing
to in constructive ways."

Lynn K.

------------------------------=AD=AD-----------

"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."

Lynn K.
------------------------------=AD=AD-----------

LYNN K. and LOIS E, and a BiLateral, BiPolar
conversation on Mental problems. LYNN AND LOIS
Almost 50 years on mental illness medications combined

------------------------------=AD=AD-----------

But I think what Lois was referring to
was the fact that Darlene actually
stated at some point that she was
bipolar--and, IIRC, that meds did not work
for her--so she was prone to major-league
ups and downs and sudden
enthusiasms..


"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."

Lynn K.
------------------------------=AD=AD-----------

LYNN K. and the UNQUIET MIND

From: Lynn Kosmakos )
Subject: Where is Darlene?
Date: 1999/09/03

BoxHill wrote:
I know I am totally off topic here, but have you read
"The Unquiet Mind"?


Yeah. It's interesting, but kind of
watered down for the mass market, if
you know what I mean. There's really
quite a lot of good work out there and
decent research. Thank God.

Lynn K.
------------------------------=AD=AD---------

MOTHER AND CHILD REUNION "KUCKOO!! CUCKOO!!!"
MOTHER (LOIS E.) 22 YEARS on TRICYCLICS, DAUGHTER BIPOLAR...

YOU DO THE MATH

"What's really terrific, is now days you can say proudly,
'I take anti-depressives'"

From: Gary & lois Edwards )
Subject: Where is Darlene?
Date: 1999/09/02

BEEN ON TRICYCLICS FOR ABOUT 22 YEARS

"I don't take lithium, but I've been on trycyclics
for about 22 years. Been there, done that, have
the t-shirt to prove it. What's really terrific,
is now days you can say proudly,

"I take anti-depressives". Back when I started
taking them it was seen as something shameful.
If you cut your leg off, and were lying there with
a bleeding stump, you'd never let the word
depressed, pass your lips, or the doc's would say,
"You're depressed, on medication? Well, can't have
any pain meds.....you could become addicted."

The good old days. I actually had a Great Aunt who's
father locked her in her room back in the twenties
because she was simple. A shame that medication
probably would have helped her live a normal life.

No Denna, I was just saying with Darlene's
personality, she has a way of making grandiose
plans when at the top of her manic cycle....as
does my daughter. I wasn't saying that anyone
with problems could be counted on to be
irresponsible."

Lois E.
------------------------------=AD=AD-------

"It was kind of funny, in an absurd way. The rabbit
was completely still, eyes open and glazed, dried
blood in his ears and mouth, with his back legs
stiffening quickly.

It was her pet rabbit, not a wild bunny, so
that made it much harder for her.

And he was killed by bichons.

Her dogs had torn it apart. My one student who had
shown up (another weird thing about the night) and I
had to continuously check for heart and bowel sounds
for her, until she could accept that the rabbit was dead.

(The rigor mortis in his back legs she attributed to "pain").

Full moon.

Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com

Then she mentioned the names of her dogs,
and I immediately remembered them.


YOUR STUDENT, leah. Like that RECENT GRADUATE
STUDENT Rottie who'd been in your SOCIALIZATION
classes since IT was ten weeks old who RECENTLY
MURDERED a little innocent DEAD DOG at the park.

I will always remember the dogs.


Yeah. You and ed w of PET LOSS dot COIN.

Leah Effexor for chronic depression, in denial
about being mentally ill. Has taken
several other mentally ill medications
before settling on effexor for her chronic
mental problems. Recenly changed to
another ANTI PSYCHOTIC prescription.


"I don't think Jerry intentionally lies. I think he twists
things around in his own mind until he actually believes
what he's saying."


Jerry is the only poster here who gives dangerous
advice. Google for spike and squirt. And let's not
forget the times he's told posters whose dogs have
medical problems that his halfwits-end program could
cure them.


PetsMart Pet Trainer=20
My Kids, My Students, My Life

  #6  
Old May 17th 05, 11:17 PM
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

HOWEDY John,

You seen enough yet?

  #7  
Old May 18th 05, 02:09 AM
Jack
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , Rocky
wrote:

John Ferman said in rec.pets.dogs.rescue:

Is there a particular reason you want to avoid food as a
motivator?


Yes, Libby does not take treats. We have tried lathering
them up with liver paste, salmon paste, all to no avail. We
know this refusal is not right and attribute it to
something that went on in the puppy mill.


There's no reason to train her with treats, then. As I said in
my previous post, no dog is the same. I've worked with plenty
of dogs in agility training, and while most are food motivated
there are many that are more motivated by a tug toy or a
squeaky.

I was intrigued by your original comment that implied (to me)
that you were, in general, avoiding training classes because "a
trainers main strength is to reinforce obedience with a treat."
This is simply not true in my experience.


Our objective in training is to help Libby recover from the damage of 4 to
5 years in a puppy mill. One object is to help her be comfortable around
other dogs and people. Another is to help her respond to Come, Sit, Stay.
We do not expect perfection. Another is to help her respond to her name.
The source of her name was from the person who runs LimberLost Rescue -
before that she had no name, only a number tatooed inside her ears.
Another is to help her behave 'off-leash.' This coming July we will be
taking Libby on our annual vacation to the Norshor of Lake Superior - we
hope to be able to let her run free in our favorite blueberry place and on
the various trails in the woods. But our paramount objective is to help
her become a dog again. None of these objectives can happen if we start OT
too soon - by too soon is meant an action that reverses the progress so
far and causes a reversion to her earlier condition.

Has anyone here written about puppy mills - about the conditions both
physical and mental. Can anyone imagine a puppy factory of 1600 producing
machines? That puppy mill in Kingston, WI has been reported and
authorities are investigating. But it not illegal to 'raise' any animal.

--
John Ferman
Minneapolis, MN
 




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