From:

I have Weigh****chers zero-point soup (mostly tomato and lots of
carrot, with some onions and sometimes zucchini or peppers), so now she
has it some of that with me. She loves it and seems well on it - any
reason it could be bad?

The nightshade family is not recommended for arthritics, tomatoes and
peppers are nightshades. Onions are toxic to dogs, so no, I certainly
wouldn't feed it to any dogs, and especially not an older dog. There's
also the possibility of too much vitamin A from the carrots when
combined with a diet that already contains adequate vitamin A, and
concerns about sodium.

Debbie

In message , Debbie S
writes
The nightshade family is not recommended for arthritics, tomatoes and
peppers are nightshades. Onions are toxic to dogs, so no, I certainly
wouldn't feed it to any dogs, and especially not an older dog. There's
also the possibility of too much vitamin A from the carrots when
combined with a diet that already contains adequate vitamin A, and
concerns about sodium.

Thanks, Debbie; will stop sharing my lunch with her, then.
--
Klara, Gatwick basin

"Debbie S" wrote in message
...
.. There's
also the possibility of too much vitamin A from the carrots when
combined with a diet that already contains adequate vitamin A,

.........I doubt you could feed enough carrots to cause Vit A toxicity in
dogs, who don't store all their A in their livers like we do.

buglady
take out the dog before replying

From:

Thanks, Debbie; will stop sharing my lunch with her, then.

I certainly didn't mean to send the message that sharing your lunch is
bad, just that I wouldn't share that particular lunch.

Debbie

From:

........I doubt you could feed enough carrots to cause Vit A toxicity
in dogs, who don't store all their A in their livers like we do.

You can certainly feed enough to turn their skin orange, I've seen it in
a client's dog. I doubt it's a good thing, toxic or not.

Debbie

"Debbie S" wrote in message
...
You can certainly feed enough to turn their skin orange, I've seen it in
a client's dog. I doubt it's a good thing, toxic or not.

.........Just how much carrot was this person feeding on a daily basis?
Cooked or raw - grated, juiced, pulped or whole?

buglady
take out the dog before replying

From:

........Just how much carrot was this person feeding on a daily basis?
Cooked or raw - grated, juiced, pulped or whole?

Yep. ;-) IIRC, she was using carrots as treats, and also fed raw with
no knowledge of how to go about it, and was either grating or juicing
carrots as the entire veggie portion for her large breed overweight dog,
with the 'veggies' making up about 1/2 it's meals. I remember her
saying how she thought the sugar in carrots would be good for energy
during class, since the dog was on a 'diet'. UGH. Truly clueless,
since she didn't notice the orange skin until I pointed it out. That
was when I found out what she was feeding. This is the same woman that
thought her breed not known for leaving the ground easily would make a
great disc dog, because he just _loved his dinner plates. I kid you
not.

Debbie

"Debbie S" wrote in message
...
From:
was either grating or juicing
carrots as the entire veggie portion for her large breed overweight dog,
with the 'veggies' making up about 1/2 it's meals.

...........While I could scarcely believe that you could feed enough beta
carotene containing food (which includes green veg too BTW) to cause a dog
to turn orange, I started out accepting your assumption. I'm not so sure it
was correct. Since I've rewritten this thing 12 times I'm no longer sure it
makes any kind of coherent logical sense and I'm out of time. g Here's
the short version:
......if this dog also had yellow sclera to the eyes he was probably
jaundiced - nothing to do with carrots; liver function should be tested.
......there a possibility the orange skin only had something to do with
carrots in that the dog was HYPOthyroid and wasn't converting beta carotene
to Vit A. This is my guess, especially since the dog was fat.
.......Hypercarotenemia (orange skin) is largely cosmetic and does NOT equal
Vit A toxicity. I only found one website mentioning the effects of
carotenes on dog skin and that was in ref to the fur - mahogany or red dogs
will get redder, white dogs may get slightly orange tint to fur.
-----------------------------------------

.....beta carotene - the form of Vit A in carrots is only half as potent as
pre Vit A. Uptake is through passive absorption in the intestines. As the
amount of beta carotene in the diet increases, absorption decreases.
(Source: Sm An Clin Nutr)

Signs of Vit A toxicity: internal hemorrhage, skeletal malformation,
spontaneous fractures, anorexia, slow growth, weight loss, skin thickening,
increased blood clotting time, reduced erythrocyte count, eneteritis,
conjunctivitis, fatty infiltration of the liver and reduced function of
liver and kidneys.

.......So anything else going on with this dog?

Because the dog turned orange does not necessarily mean there was Vit A
toxicity, so it is not correct to speak of *toxicity* in relation to
hypercarotenemia.

http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/130/7/1788
Dietary ß-Carotene Is Taken up by Blood Plasma and Leukocytes in Dogs1
*ß-Carotene feeding did not significantly influence the concentrations of
plasma retinol or {alpha}-tocopherol in all experiments.*
*Concentrations in all treatment groups had returned to baseline values at
24 h postdosing. No dogs could be considered as nonresponders to dietary
ß-carotene.*

..........so within 24 hours the beta carotene is gone from the blood plasma.
This person had to be giving HUGE amounts of juiced carrots every single day
to get to the point of orange skin. And note that retinol (actual Vit A)
was not increased in the blood (at least at the levels given).

Despite being about cats, there's good refs in this article:
http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/6/1610S

In experiments with older dogs at least beta carotene boosts immune
function:

Massimino S, Kearns RJ, Loos KM, Burr J, Park JS, Chew B, Adams S, Hayek MG.
Abstract Effects of age and dietary beta-carotene on immunological
variables in dogs.
J Vet Intern Med. 2003 Nov-Dec;17(6):835-42.
PMID: 14658721 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

she didn't notice the orange skin until I pointed it out.

The orange skin is called hypercarotenemia and is purely cosmetic. Once
again, this is assuming the whites of the eyes are NOT also yellow, which is
jaundice, not carrot induced.

I don't know if the following is true for dogs - this is a human site (as
dogs do handle Vit A differently than humans - the levels of Vit A in their
blood would signal toxicity in humans):
http://www.uk-supplements.com/pg-pro...P-7_17-pId-297
4.html
*Beta-Carotene cannot be properly converted into vitamin A by diabetics, or
those with hypothyroidism or severe liver malfunction. These people cannot
rely on beta-carotene as a sole source of vitamin A activity.
..........Hyper-carotenaemia, a purely cosmetic condition characterised by
the skin turning slightly orange, may occur at doses of 30 mg daily and
above.This is reversible upon stopping beta-carotene supplementation.*

Also a human site http://www.smj.org.uk/0804/carot.htm
*High serum carotene is not associated with hypervitaminosis A unless excess
vitamin A is also taken, because conversion in the small intestine is
regulated in a negative feedback manner.2 ............Hypercarotenaemia
results in yellow pigmentation of the skin (especially the nasolabial folds,
the palms and soles of the feet) and elevated carotene levels in the blood.
The sclerae are always spared, distinguishing it from jaundice. There are no
associated systemic symptoms.*

http://jcp.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte...tract/47/9/850
Xanthoderma: an unusual presentation of hypothyroidism

....................which makes me wonder - could an overweight dog who might
not be converting that beta-carotene to Vit A be hypothyroid? Did this dog
have a 6-panel thyroid run? Liver function tested? Were the eyes also
yellow?

..........Because someone was feeding a huge amount of juiced carrots a day
to a large breed dog, who ALL have much slower digestion than smaller dogs
(which may increase uptake) is no reason to *dis* carrots for general use.
To me that's like saying - oh, I saw a car accident today, I probably
shouldn't go anywhere in a car anymore. Unless they're cooked or juiced,
they're going to come through virtually unchanged. That is the value of
using carrots as treats. Except for the few cells they break when chewing
on the carrot, they get virtually nothing out of it bodywise. And the
general rule is everything in moderation. You can feed an excess of
anything with bad results. In no way, shape or form, would I worry about
feeding carrots to a dog, especially if they were raw.

.........Are you still in touch with this person? I'd really like to know if
the dog was HypoT or if the liver was compromised. Just because someone is
an idiot doesn't mean her dog didn't have a physical problem. On first
blush this can NEVER be ruled out AFAIC.

This is the same woman that
thought her breed not known for leaving the ground easily would make a
great disc dog, because he just _loved his dinner plates. I kid you
not.

........some people aren't too well connected to the day-to-day reality
necessary to survive. I hope you advised this client to get a good quality
kibble and helped her with a strict written daily schedule for adding fresh
foods. You'd be doing her dog a favor.

buglady
take out the dog before replying

From: (buglady)

..........While I could scarcely believe that you could feed enough
beta carotene containing food (which includes green veg too BTW) to
cause a dog to turn orange, I started out accepting your assumption.

My assumption was corroborated by a naturopath/holistic vet. This was
several years ago, IIRC, the first year I started teaching agility. She
quit tanking the dog up on carrots, the dog's skin returned to normal.

FTR, I said "There's also the possibility of too much vitamin A from the
carrots when combined with a diet that already contains adequate vitamin
A" . I didn't mention vitamin A toxicity, you did. I only responded to
the OP, stating why I thought the soup she was feeding her dog wasn't a
good idea. I don't believe that feeding excess vitamin A is a good
thing, just as I don't believe feeding anything in excess is a good
thing. shrug Because of medical appointments and pain, I have fed my
dogs kibble two days in a row. Believe me when I say *that* wasn't a
good thing, either! ;-)

.........Because someone was feeding a huge amount of juiced carrots a
day to a large breed dog, who ALL have much slower digestion than
smaller dogs (which may increase uptake) is no reason to *dis* carrots
for general use.

Do you have a fever? Pain? Good doG, I certainly wasn't 'dissing' the
feeding of carrots! I OCCASIONALLY FEED CARROTS. Very occasionally,
admittedly, as I prefer dark leafy greens when I feed veggies.

And the general rule is everything in moderation.

Exactly. Now go back and read the contents of that soup, which it
sounded like the OP was apparently feeding often... at least it sounded
that way to me. And even if she _isn't feeding is as often as I've
assumed from her wording, I *still* wouldn't feed it to a dog!

I hope you advised this client to get a good quality kibble and helped
her with a strict written daily schedule for adding fresh foods. You'd
be doing her dog a favor.

I AM NOT teaching people how to feed a raw diet! I teach obedience,
agility, and deal with so called 'problem' dogs. I sent her to a
naturopathic/holistic vet {I don't remember his credentials, and he's
moved to CA since} and let him deal with it. I teach dog training, with
a particular slant on teaching dog _trainers.

Geez.

Debbie
okay, maybe it's the drugs I'm taking for my back, but this post really
rubbed me the wrong way. I'm trying not to be pissy, because I really
have no issues with you.

"Debbie S" wrote in message
...
My assumption was corroborated by a naturopath/holistic vet. This was
several years ago, IIRC, the first year I started teaching agility. She
quit tanking the dog up on carrots, the dog's skin returned to normal.

................it would have helped to know that at the outset. I still
wonder about the hypoT. Pound wise it would be interesting to know how much
carrot she was feeding.

Because of medical appointments and pain, I have fed my
dogs kibble two days in a row. Believe me when I say *that* wasn't a
good thing, either! ;-)

........it won't kill them. Dogs are highly adaptable.

.........Because someone was feeding a huge amount of juiced carrots a
day to a large breed dog, who ALL have much slower digestion than
smaller dogs (which may increase uptake) is no reason to *dis* carrots
for general use.

Do you have a fever? Pain? Good doG, I certainly wasn't 'dissing' the
feeding of carrots!

go back and read the contents of that soup, which it
sounded like the OP was apparently feeding often..

........I did and she never said how much - if she was actually sharing the
soup with the dog, doubt it was that much. It seemed like a big leap to me
to go from a bit of daily soup to issues about Vit A.

okay, maybe it's the drugs I'm taking for my back, but this post really
rubbed me the wrong way. I'm trying not to be pissy, because I really
have no issues with you.

.......well, OK, I guess I felt your initial post had some misinformation.
A bit of cooked onion flavoring in a soup isn't necessarily a problem. Not
all dogs react to onions, though, yes, you're right, it's probably a good
thing to avoid them in general, especially for daily use. Nightshades aren't
always an issue as only some people react to them WRT arthritis and since
her dog was bouncy didn't seem an issue to me. I don't even know if they've
ever studied this in dogs or not but most people have carried that
assumption over.
........WRT Vit A since this is what you actually said:
*There's
also the possibility of too much vitamin A from the carrots when
combined with a diet that already contains adequate vitamin A*

I assumed you were talking about toxicity but maybe I was wrong to think
that's what you meant by *too much.* To me Vit A would not have been an
issue at all. You really have to work at it to overdose dogs on Vit A. A
bit of daily soup, with or without Vit A supplementation is just not going
to do it.

......I don't read over on rpdb so have no way of knowing what you do for a
living. Sorry about the wrong assumption.

.......hope your back gets better.

buglady
take out the dog before replying