Okay, Joe Joe is *still* marking Fancy and I find it gross, frustrating and
barely tolerable. We don't see him do it so I don't know why/when/where but
frequent baths are providing evidence of it.

His previous owners swear he only ever marked their dog's food bowl and that
was a one-time deal but that he'd never marked her. This makes incident
number 3, at least, in 2 weeks.

How in the world do I stop him from doing this, especially when I don't see
him doing it? Its not sanitary for her to come in the house with urine in
her coat when she lays & rolls around on the same sofa we sit & nap on.
Somehow this has to stop. BTW, there have been no spats, no more mounting
that I've seen, no challenges of any kind so I don't understand the cause of
this behavior.

--
Tara

"Tee" wrote:

Okay, Joe Joe is *still* marking Fancy and I find it gross, frustrating
and
barely tolerable.

Ych. I can see why!

We don't see him do it so I don't know why/when/where

Hm. Is it usually on one particular part of her body?

Not that this is any real help in terms of figuring out how to stop it,
but I can't help wondering if he's actually deliberately marking her, or if
it's possible that she's pushing in to overmark where's he's marking, and
getting peed on in the process...
Reason that occurred to me is that it used to happen to Rocsi when she was
small and hadn't quite figured out that it was better to wait for Brenin to
move away before going in to leave *her* mark. And she still gets a bit to
close to Morag when moving in to mark the same spot.

"Sionnach" wrote in message
...

Hm. Is it usually on one particular part of her body?

Yep. The lower half of her back.

Not that this is any real help in terms of figuring out how to stop it,
but I can't help wondering if he's actually deliberately marking her, or
if
it's possible that she's pushing in to overmark where's he's marking, and
getting peed on in the process...
Reason that occurred to me is that it used to happen to Rocsi when she
was
small and hadn't quite figured out that it was better to wait for Brenin
to
move away before going in to leave *her* mark. And she still gets a bit to
close to Morag when moving in to mark the same spot.

This is interesting. I have been thinking that he's marking her while she's
laying down. That's still not impossible. However, as she squats to
urinate, I'm wondering if he's nailing her as she's doing her own urinating.
If she were just getting in his way, and I really don't think she'd keep
doing it without learning a lesson, it seems the marked area on her wouldn't
be in that particular place, every time. If he were starting to mark over
her before she finished then again I think she'd have the spots in various
places.

I am fully willing to believe its dominance related without the aggressive
gestures that often go with it. It may be that she's refusing to fully
submit to him and he's decided that he's going to mark & mark & mark until
she fully submissive. I've noticed a slight stressfulness about her this
week because she's been moved in the pack order again (the first being when
Pebbles died). He's eating out of *her* bowl and sleeping on *her*
loveseat. Fancy is a bit weird in that she won't share a piece of furniture
with anyone but Scott. There's two cushions on the loveseat but if Joe Joe
is on one she won't get on the other. If she's already there & napping his
sudden presence on the other cushion causes her to jump off, pout & lay on
the floor, something she's not terribly fond of.

How much sense does my supposition make? I kind of wish she'd just put him
in his place so the routine is the same and she remains "top dog" for her
own sake as well as this marking thing. He's obviously become very dominant
as he's matured and I don't think he's quite finished yet. I just don't
want her to feel displaced and I can't imagine she's just fine & dandy with
being urinated on by the usurper. My biggest fear, probably a baseless one,
right now is that rather than these two being so buddy-buddy like they were
that it'll become some kind of master/slave companionship, something Fancy's
temperament has never before been geared towards unless she was the master.


--
Tara

"Tee" wrote:


This is interesting. I have been thinking that he's marking her while
she's
laying down. That's still not impossible. However, as she squats to
urinate, I'm wondering if he's nailing her as she's doing her own
urinating.

That would certainly make sense both in terms of his marking, and in where
she's getting peed on. It also makes more sense that her just lying there
and letting him do it - from what you've said of her, that seemed out of
character.


If she were just getting in his way, and I really don't think she'd keep
doing it without learning a lesson, it seems the marked area on her
wouldn't
be in that particular place, every time.

Probably not - and it would more likely be on her head/shoulders, since
the usual thing is for the dog pushing in to be sniffing at the spot being
peed on, and/or the pee itself, preparatory to leaving his or her personal
mark.

If he were starting to mark over
her before she finished then again I think she'd have the spots in various
places.

Maybe... but still not impossible that he's moving in for an early
overmark (e.g trying to pee on the same spot she is at the same time) and
getting her that way.


I am fully willing to believe its dominance related without the aggressive
gestures that often go with it.

I never have quite figured out why Rocsi HAS to overmark every place Morag
marks in public- they don't otherwise struggle for dominance, and in fact Mw
can still take toys out of Rocsi's mouth etc. if she chooses to.
But when we go to the park, every time Mw marks, Rocsi has to run over,
sniff at it as Mw marks, then immediately mark in exactly the same spot. She
doesn't do it when Mw pees purely to relieve herself, only when it's a
matter of marking. (Easy to tell what's going on because they both lift
their legs when they're marking - they do the squat'n'tip thing.)


It may be that she's refusing to fully
submit to him and he's decided that he's going to mark & mark & mark
until
she fully submissive.

Hmm... could be. Or it could just be that he feels like he has to mark
every place she does. What seems odd to me, though, is that IME males don't
usually bother with wanting *females* to be submissive in that way. Well,
male *dogs*, anyway. ;-D
It could also, it seems to me, be a sexual sort of thing without dominance
being so much involved... e.g. it might be possible that he's stimulated by
her peeing, rather than being driven to mark for dominance reasons, if that
makes any sense.



He's obviously become very dominant
as he's matured and I don't think he's quite finished yet.

Remind me.. how old is he again? And when was he neutered?

My biggest fear, probably a baseless one,
right now is that rather than these two being so buddy-buddy like they
were
that it'll become some kind of master/slave companionship, something
Fancy's
temperament has never before been geared towards unless she was the
master.

That's a genuine concern IMO.
An acquaintece of mine ended up returning a puppy to the breeder because
she saw her older bitch being forced to give up her "alpha bitch" status,
and didn't like the effect it was having - it wasn't that she was concerned
about violence between the two, but the psychological effect on the older
female.

"Sionnach" wrote in message
...

That would certainly make sense both in terms of his marking, and in
where
she's getting peed on. It also makes more sense that her just lying there
and letting him do it - from what you've said of her, that seemed out of
character.

Yes, very much out of character. She's never shown any real submissiveness
like that would take in the almost 4 years we've known her. She just never
took crap from other dogs, except Pebbles.

Maybe... but still not impossible that he's moving in for an early
overmark (e.g trying to pee on the same spot she is at the same time) and
getting her that way.

That could certainly be.

Hmm... could be. Or it could just be that he feels like he has to mark
every place she does. What seems odd to me, though, is that IME males
don't
usually bother with wanting *females* to be submissive in that way. Well,
male *dogs*, anyway. ;-D

This is the first time I've seen or heard of such a thing myself. Usually
the boys, at least in this breed, could care less about the girls. They
just shrug everything off and are very content with themselves. I've had
some dominant males before but none who consistently challenged Fancy for
anything, territory or staus. Same gender challenges were quite normal
though.

It could also, it seems to me, be a sexual sort of thing without
dominance
being so much involved... e.g. it might be possible that he's stimulated
by
her peeing, rather than being driven to mark for dominance reasons, if
that
makes any sense.

My doG I hope not! Why didn't he do this with the female he lived with for
the last year? She was about 3yo, a fairly dominant Pit/Boxer mix. I guess
its possible that the prev. owners weren't being entirely truthful about him
marking her, or they just didn't see it. It takes bathing Fancy to see it,
or lean down close and smell it on her as she's always dry when she comes
in.

Remind me.. how old is he again? And when was he neutered?

2.5yo and he was neutered at 14mo.

That's a genuine concern IMO.
An acquaintece of mine ended up returning a puppy to the breeder because
she saw her older bitch being forced to give up her "alpha bitch" status,
and didn't like the effect it was having - it wasn't that she was
concerned
about violence between the two, but the psychological effect on the older
female.

I'm trying very hard to not be one of those people who attributes their own
emotions to their dogs. I've heard it too many times, "my dog has always
been alpha and now this dog is trying to take that place and its not right!"
and other similar remarks. I know dogs can adapt to change and that
hierarchies aren't set in stone for each dog's life. I'm also fine with the
dynamic change in general as long as she doesn't turn back into the
introverted, sad-seeming, shell of a dog she was the first year we had her.

He's just doing whatever it is he's doing. I know the previous owners noted
some changes in his behavior in that he'd begun mildly challenging their
female in situations he hadn't done before. Maybe for him this is some kind
of growing pain or transitional phase and that once he figures out who/what
he's supposed to be he'll be fine. He's certainly still the lovable, funny,
obedient dog I bragged about last week. I also don't want to penalize him
on some psychological or emotional plain for upsetting the dynamic here.

I guess I'll just have to keep watch. If Fancy starts becoming introverted
again or seems overly unhappy then I may have to ask the rescue to consider
placing him afterall. That would be horrible for him though as he's
settling in just fine here and it would be cruel to keep him for a while and
then try to place him in another strange environment. I guess crossed
fingers & toes is the order of the day right now.


--
Tara

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

I vote for early overmark.

I agree with this. "My" Boxers are re-mark-able and very quick
on the draw.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Tee" wrote:

I've had
some dominant males before but none who consistently challenged Fancy for
anything, territory or staus. Same gender challenges were quite normal
though.

That's what I've usually seen/heard of, both with dogs in general and
Boxers in particular. You'll get bossy bitches who want to tell *everyone*
how to behave, but males pulling that kind of dominance stuff with females -
especially an older female, already established in the household, is
unusual.
A male being *possessive* of females, now, is another thing... has just
occurred to me that while Bren is quite henpecked, he does tend to get
bugged when the girls flirt with intact males at the park. He sort of stomps
around muttering to himself.


I guess
its possible that the prev. owners weren't being entirely truthful about
him
marking her, or they just didn't see it.

Or maybe her chemistry was just different? G


I'm trying very hard to not be one of those people who attributes their
own
emotions to their dogs. I've heard it too many times, "my dog has always
been alpha and now this dog is trying to take that place and its not
right!"
and other similar remarks.


I know what you mean. I was silly enough to think that Bren would be
dominant to Morag when she came to live with us - because he's older and
larger - but when she batted her pretty eyelashes at him and took over, I
didn't try to change things.
I've seen people go to great lengths to try to make the pack order work out
the way THEY think it should be, and it nearly always causes trouble.


Maybe for him this is some kind
of growing pain or transitional phase and that once he figures out
who/what
he's supposed to be he'll be fine.


It would fit both with his age and the fact that he's changed
households...


I guess I'll just have to keep watch. If Fancy starts becoming
introverted
again or seems overly unhappy then I may have to ask the rescue to
consider
placing him afterall.

Let's hope not!

(That, btw, was the effect seen in the other household I mentioned IIRC -
the older dog was giving way naturally, but it seemed to really depress her,
and the owners felt it better to return the pup to the breeder.)

I guess crossed
fingers & toes is the order of the day right now.

That, and maybe trying to figure out if he's marking deliberately or
accidentally? Will keep fingers & toes crossed here, too...

On 20 Jun 2005 03:00:56 GMT, Rocky wrote:

I agree with this. "My" Boxers are re-mark-able and very quick
on the draw.

both of my dogs overmark each other. elliott has never actually peed on
harriet, but he's come close a couple of times. the Voice of God
quickly made him rethink his plan.

--
shelly
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette || http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com

O! for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of
invention.
-- William Shakespeare

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 10:38:48 -0500, shelly
wrote:

On 20 Jun 2005 03:00:56 GMT, Rocky wrote:

I agree with this. "My" Boxers are re-mark-able and very quick
on the draw.

both of my dogs overmark each other. elliott has never actually peed on
harriet, but he's come close a couple of times. the Voice of God
quickly made him rethink his plan.

I was thinking this was might be overmark gone awry, too. We have
some overmarking here, too, but the overmarkers evidently wait until
the undermarkers are finished. We've had a couple foster homes whose
females got marked on a few times, though not regularly.

Mustang Sally

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:45:11 -0400, sighthounds & siberians
wrote:

I was thinking this was might be overmark gone awry, too. We have
some overmarking here, too, but the overmarkers evidently wait until
the undermarkers are finished.

my favorite is when harriet's peeing and elliott is in queue to
overmark. occasionally, harriet will cut off and move out of his way,
then as soon as he's covered her mark, she squats on top of the spot and
finishes peeing. neener neener!

We've had a couple foster homes whose females got marked on a few times,
though not regularly.

that's what i'm voting for with Joe Joe and Fancy. if it *is*
overmarking gone awry, i would think it would be an easier problem to
solve than if Joe Joe were truly and deliberately marking on Fancy.

--
shelly
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette || http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com

B is for Basil assaulted by bears.
-- Edward Gorey, The Gashlycrumb Tinies