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when are they learned behaviors?



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 21st 05, 02:07 AM
MauiJNP
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Default when are they learned behaviors?

My dog is pretty good with listening to commands but there are some times
when he just wants to ignore me. For an example, he may ignore me when
there is a major distraction, like someone else has food and I don't and I
tell him to come to me. He might also ignore the come command if I tell him
to come and he seems I am holding his toothbrush or if he knows I am leaving
and I plan to crate him. So, how do I make sure he listens to me even when
the above circumstances are present? Do I have to go back to square one and
start over? Certainly by now he knows what I am asking and he is just not
listening. Is this a pack leader thing? Do other people have dogs that
listen to them 100% of the time no matter what? Is this even possible? If
so, how do I get that even with distractions? I would love to have a dog
that I can take to the park and have off a leash but with so many
distractions and a nearby road, I could never do that the way he is now
because there is always a chance he might choose to ignore my commands and
run out into the street or something. Also, in the future, I plan to get
some agility equipment and try some of them with him. With this help him
learn to listen better or do I need to reach that 100% before trying agility
stuff? If it matters, the agility stuff would just be for fun in our yard
never for real competitions or anything like that. Thanks for any help and
advice.


  #2  
Old August 22nd 05, 02:10 AM
Ronna
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MauiJNP wrote:
My dog is pretty good with listening to commands but there are some times
when he just wants to ignore me. For an example, he may ignore me when
there is a major distraction, like someone else has food and I don't and I
tell him to come to me. He might also ignore the come command if I tell him
to come and he seems I am holding his toothbrush or if he knows I am leaving
and I plan to crate him. So, how do I make sure he listens to me even when
the above circumstances are present? Do I have to go back to square one and
start over? Certainly by now he knows what I am asking and he is just not
listening. Is this a pack leader thing? Do other people have dogs that
listen to them 100% of the time no matter what? Is this even possible? If
so, how do I get that even with distractions? I would love to have a dog
that I can take to the park and have off a leash but with so many
distractions and a nearby road, I could never do that the way he is now
because there is always a chance he might choose to ignore my commands and
run out into the street or something. Also, in the future, I plan to get
some agility equipment and try some of them with him. With this help him
learn to listen better or do I need to reach that 100% before trying agility
stuff? If it matters, the agility stuff would just be for fun in our yard
never for real competitions or anything like that. Thanks for any help and
advice.


I would enroll in an obedience class. One of the great things about
them is that your dog will learn to obey commands with major
distractions around. It's all about teaching the dog the behavior, and
the proofing the behavior in different surroundings, with different
things going on. If you want to do agility, your dog has to be
reliable offleash, and able to take commands with major distraction
around.

  #3  
Old August 22nd 05, 04:25 AM
MauiJNP
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Default


I would enroll in an obedience class. One of the great things about
them is that your dog will learn to obey commands with major
distractions around. It's all about teaching the dog the behavior, and
the proofing the behavior in different surroundings, with different
things going on. If you want to do agility, your dog has to be
reliable offleash, and able to take commands with major distraction
around.


Thanks for reading and responding! I did a 7 week puppy manors class with
my dog when he was 5 months old. He did great but only ok with
distractions. However, at the last class, I had taught him to spin and roll
and a bunch of stuff like that so he was off lead in a room with several
other dogs and he listened amazingly well. The trainer was amazed at how
well he and I worked together with him offlead. I want him to be able to do
that more often. I guess I just have to keep working at it. Maybe he and I
will also try the second set of dog classes, its more advanced than the
puppy one and I think it really incorporates working thru distractions even
more. Thanks for the advice!


  #4  
Old August 22nd 05, 02:38 PM
Suja
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Default

MauiJNP wrote:

Maybe he and I
will also try the second set of dog classes, its more advanced than the
puppy one and I think it really incorporates working thru distractions even
more.


Definitely. Age is also a factor, and I have known dogs who were
perfect angels as puppies all of a sudden lose their hearing as they
enter adolescence. Continuing to work through any such phases is pretty
important.

On the 'come' command - you are diluting the command by associating
unpleasant things (brushing teeth for example) with it. You wouldn't
want to go to someone if you knew that they'll do something unpleasant
to you when you got to them either. Go get the dog when something
unpleasant is about to happen, and associate coming to you with good
things happening, always.

And keep in mind that some dogs may never be completely reliable
off-leash. Khan is about 90% reliable off-lead, which is not nearly
enough for me to let him off except under very controlled circumstances
(it is a combination of his nature, and my husband being a complete
doofus). Pan is about 100% reliable, and it came in quite handy on
Saturday when we had to call her off a bear.

Suja

  #5  
Old August 22nd 05, 03:16 PM
Ronna
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Posts: n/a
Default




Thanks for reading and responding! I did a 7 week puppy manors class with
my dog when he was 5 months old. He did great but only ok with
distractions. However, at the last class, I had taught him to spin and roll
and a bunch of stuff like that so he was off lead in a room with several
other dogs and he listened amazingly well. The trainer was amazed at how
well he and I worked together with him offlead. I want him to be able to do
that more often. I guess I just have to keep working at it. Maybe he and I
will also try the second set of dog classes, its more advanced than the
puppy one and I think it really incorporates working thru distractions even
more. Thanks for the advice!


One common mistake people make is thinking that puppy class is all they
need Your dog changes once he hits adolescence, and thats when it's
most important to continue classes. I would say DEFINETLY take some
more classes! Good luck

  #6  
Old August 22nd 05, 03:31 PM
ceb
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Default

Suja wrote in news:ZokOe.3414$ej5.701@lakeread05:

Pan is about 100% reliable, and it came in quite handy on
Saturday when we had to call her off a bear.


Ahem. I believe we need more details.

--
Catherine
& Zoe the cockerchow
& Queenie the black gold retriever
& Rosalie the calico
  #7  
Old August 22nd 05, 04:17 PM
Suja
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Default

ceb wrote:

Ahem. I believe we need more details.


Heh. I wondered if anyone would notice.

A friend was visiting from New York, and she wanted to go hiking in
Shenandoah on Saturday. I picked a new trail this time, because it was
short enough (my criterion) and challenging enough (Rajesh's criterion),
and with a couple of stream crossings, which was a good thing because it
was going to be a hot day.

So, we're talking and walking, crossed a tiny stream, went around a
curve, and Rajesh, who was out front with Khan came to an abrupt halt.
Khan goes ballistic, jumping up and down and barking, and Pan, who was
right behind me, runs full speed ahead to see what's going on. I peeked
out, to see a little black bear in a tree, with Pan standing right under
it, staring up at it.

If a bear is small enough that it can scramble up a tree that quickly,
there's got to be a mommy around, and none of us wanted to stick around
to meet her. I called Pan who came running, and we beat a hasty retreat
back to the stream. We waited a few minutes, talked really loudly, and
then proceeded. As we walked past the tree where the bear had been, Pan
kept looking up, as if she expected it to still be there.

I will say this. Going on a short but challenging hike on a bloody hot
day is a VERY BAD IDEA. Even when you don't get chased or eaten by a bear.

Suja
  #8  
Old August 22nd 05, 04:59 PM
MauiJNP
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Suja" wrote in message
news:ZokOe.3414$ej5.701@lakeread05...
MauiJNP wrote:

Maybe he and I will also try the second set of dog classes, its more
advanced than the puppy one and I think it really incorporates working
thru distractions even more.


Definitely. Age is also a factor, and I have known dogs who were perfect
angels as puppies all of a sudden lose their hearing as they enter
adolescence. Continuing to work through any such phases is pretty
important.


On the 'come' command - you are diluting the command by associating
unpleasant things (brushing teeth for example) with it. You wouldn't want
to go to someone if you knew that they'll do something unpleasant to you
when you got to them either. Go get the dog when something unpleasant is
about to happen, and associate coming to you with good things happening,
always.



Thanks, that a great idea, I will do this in the future. Quick question
though, if I go to him for unpleasant things, does it make him want to run
away from me when I try to get him? Or doesn't it work this way? Thanks
again.



And keep in mind that some dogs may never be completely reliable
off-leash.



Ok, so its not just my dog? Good to know. But I will keep at it and try to
get as close to 100% as I can.


Khan is about 90% reliable off-lead, which is not nearly enough for me to
let him off except under very controlled circumstances (it is a combination
of his nature, and my husband being a complete doofus). Pan is about 100%
reliable, and it came in quite handy on Saturday when we had to call her
off a bear.

Suja



  #9  
Old August 22nd 05, 05:01 PM
MauiJNP
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Ronna" wrote in message
oups.com...



Thanks for reading and responding! I did a 7 week puppy manors class
with
my dog when he was 5 months old. He did great but only ok with
distractions. However, at the last class, I had taught him to spin and
roll
and a bunch of stuff like that so he was off lead in a room with several
other dogs and he listened amazingly well. The trainer was amazed at how
well he and I worked together with him offlead. I want him to be able to
do
that more often. I guess I just have to keep working at it. Maybe he
and I
will also try the second set of dog classes, its more advanced than the
puppy one and I think it really incorporates working thru distractions
even
more. Thanks for the advice!


One common mistake people make is thinking that puppy class is all they
need Your dog changes once he hits adolescence, and thats when it's
most important to continue classes. I would say DEFINETLY take some
more classes! Good luck


Ok, I am going to call and check on some more classes. I ended up having a
lot of fun the first time around and it did help. Thanks for the advice and
encouragement.


  #10  
Old August 22nd 05, 05:16 PM
Tracy Doyle
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Posts: n/a
Default

Hi...

So many questions! I'll try to go through them one at a time.


in article , MauiJNP at wrote
on 8/20/05 8:07 PM:

My dog is pretty good with listening to commands but there are some times
when he just wants to ignore me. For an example, he may ignore me when
there is a major distraction, like someone else has food and I don't and I
tell him to come to me.


There are essentially three steps to training a dog. The first is teaching
the dog the command - what the word means, and that he'll get rewarded when
he responds correctly. The second is generalization. Dogs are very
environment-specific in their learning. For example, if you teach your dog
"sit" in the kitchen, he knows what the word means in the kitchen, but he
may not respond in the living room. The third step is introducing
distraction, or "proofing." It is in this third step that most people give
up. But what good is it to have your dog do a perfect recall in your
backyard, but he doesn't respond if he's in the front, running toward the
road? That's where your proofing comes in. And it usually involves
correction (which is why I'm not a PRO trainer).

He might also ignore the come command if I tell him
to come and he seems I am holding his toothbrush or if he knows I am leaving
and I plan to crate him.


Rule of thumb - if you want a good or near-perfect recall, NEVER call your
dog to you for something unpleasant. Go get him. Keep in mind that what gets
rewarded gets repeated and what gets punished gets extinguished. You can
teach your dog a "kennel" command. It's funny, but mine don't like to be led
into their crates, but if I say "Kennel!" they'll run right in.

So, how do I make sure he listens to me even when
the above circumstances are present? Do I have to go back to square one and
start over?


You have to go through the proofing process. You don't have to start over.
But if you're looking for a perfect recall, you need to make sure that you
can reinforce the command. That means having your dog on a long line, or
(God forbid!) an e-collar. If your dog has learned that he can blow you off
when you call him, you've trained him to ignore you and that "come" is
optional. He has been rewarded for ignoring you because he got to do what
he wanted. You have to make him do what you want.

Certainly by now he knows what I am asking and he is just not
listening. Is this a pack leader thing?


Sort of, but I think of it more as a training issue.

Do other people have dogs that
listen to them 100% of the time no matter what? Is this even possible?


A very good trainer once told me that 80% is trained and 90% is very solid.
Personally, because it's a lifesaving command, I like recall to be as close
to 100% as possible.

If
so, how do I get that even with distractions? I would love to have a dog
that I can take to the park and have off a leash but with so many
distractions and a nearby road, I could never do that the way he is now
because there is always a chance he might choose to ignore my commands and
run out into the street or something.


Distinct possibility! I suggest that you either go to an obedience class or
get a good video. Learn how to use a long line and practice every day in
different areas, introducing higher and higher distractions. Or find a good
e-collar trainer and use that. I do long line work first, then I introduce
the e-collar with a pager mode (vibration or beeper). Frankly, the results
I've gotten since I started using the e-collar have been so incredible that
I'd hesitate to proof off-leash recalls without one.

Also, in the future, I plan to get
some agility equipment and try some of them with him. With this help him
learn to listen better or do I need to reach that 100% before trying agility
stuff?


If you wait for 100%, you'll never do agility. But it helps to have your
basic obedience down first.

If it matters, the agility stuff would just be for fun in our yard
never for real competitions or anything like that. Thanks for any help and
advice.


My advice is - take him to an obedience class. It's great for distraction
proofing. Then take him to a beginning agility class - it's always helpful
to have an experienced person help you through familiarizing your dog with
the equipment and helping you to set jumps and obstacles at the correct
height to avoid injury.

Hope this helps!

Tracy



 




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