A dog & canine forum. DogBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » DogBanter forum » Dog forums » Dog behavior
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

FYI



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old September 1st 05, 12:57 PM
Janet B
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FYI

On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 07:38:17 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison
, clicked their heels and said:

The Dogs of Track and Field

http://slate.msn.com/id/2124888/?GT1=6900


My dogs' athleticism is to make up for the lack of MY athleticism!
Which is why agility just isn't my sport (well, there are many reasons
for that. We play, but competing probably isn't something that is
going to happen much). While I don't exactly just stand there for
flyball, it's a bit less demanding than agility, at least for the
humans involved.

Franklin would prefer all activity involved ducks and water though
(land series - ok, but boring.......), but tennis balls can make an
adequate alternate activity. THAT'S what's wrong with agility - no
retrieving!





--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...bedience/album
  #2  
Old September 1st 05, 03:56 PM
cimawr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Interesting article, but WAAAAY off base in quite a few places.

1. It claims you can't do agility if you don't start in baby
puppyhood. Utter horse hockey, as witness the fact that Brenin and
Morag - both shelter adoptees acquired in late adolescence - have
championships.
And Brenin, who started agility training at age 2, was successful
from the beginning of competiton, which he started 6 months after the
start of training.

2. A high pain tolerance is *not* necessary for a dog to be successful
in agility (again, witness the fact that Ms. Princess-and-the-Pea Morag
has a championship).

3. There is no necessity for a dog to heel on an agility course, nor
even at an agility compeition, and in fact asking that type of
attention from your dog on-course is counterproductive.
Novice competitors, especially in AKC where the times are most
generous, may succeed while keeping their dog that slow and
handler-focused, but it will cause you to fail at higher levels.

4. I laughed out loud at the passage about dogs needing 6 to 12 months
to learn how to jump properly.

  #3  
Old September 1st 05, 04:04 PM
cimawr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Oh yes - and nowhere in the article do they manage to mention that:
1. The USDAA is only one of a number of agility organizations and
2. except for AKC and JRTCA, dogs do *not* need to be purebred and/or
pedigreed. The uninformed, reading the article, would come away with
that impression (e.g. that you need a "purebred") IMO.

Very poorly researched article IMO, based on superficial interviews. It
doesn't sound to me like the writer even bothered to go and watch any
competitions. :-P

  #4  
Old September 1st 05, 04:16 PM
Judy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"cimawr" wrote in message
oups.com...
Very poorly researched article IMO, based on superficial interviews. It
doesn't sound to me like the writer even bothered to go and watch any
competitions. :-P


And then there's the part about how you should spend an hour a day building
a bond and teamwork with your dog and THEN SEND HIM AWAY to a professional
trainer? Most trainers I know are very specific that they are training YOU,
not your dog.

The schnauzer groups I read were all pleased by the article that miniature
schnauzers were getting recognition as an agility breed. But the rest of
the article didn't represent agility as I see it - or have been living it.
--
Judy
Spenser - Carbor Talk of the Town, OA, OAJ, NJC, NGC
Sassy - Can CH Carbor Back Talk, NA, NAJ


  #5  
Old September 1st 05, 04:37 PM
cimawr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

And then there's the part about how you should spend an hour a day building
a bond and teamwork with your dog and THEN SEND HIM AWAY to a professional
trainer?


Cripes, I missed that one! I just went back and re-read, and sure
enough it does specify "sending away" - which I have *never* heard of
anyone doing, and certainly would be atypical.
I have a suspicion, though, that it may be a misinterpetation on the
part of the writer; esp. since he goes on to talk about "private
lessons", which to my reading (especially since I've never heard of
Stuart Mah training dogs sans owners) means "private training session
for owner and dog team".
Which is yet another indication of the writer's crappy
research/interview skills.

  #6  
Old September 1st 05, 04:46 PM
Robin Nuttall
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

cimawr wrote:
Interesting article, but WAAAAY off base in quite a few places.



4. I laughed out loud at the passage about dogs needing 6 to 12 months
to learn how to jump properly.

I agree mostly, but yeah, I'd have to say that in almost all cases it
does take awhile, sometimes months, sometimes years, for a dog to truly
learn how to jump properly. By that I don't mean the ability to look at
a bar between two standards and know you're supposed to heave the old
bod over it--but to learn how to be a power jumper--how to collect, how
to extend, how to slice, when and how to throw in a half stride or leave
it out, etc. all while not dropping the bar.

It took Viva almost 2 years to really learn how to jump--to the point
where she was an efficient jumper who I could trust to either extend or
collect, to the point where I could have her slice a triple sideways
while I did a rear cross (not a recommended move but occasionally
necessary).

Cala is still learning. She really doesn't like to drop bars, but she
has trouble collecting--her preferred spacing is 2 jumps at least 20
feet apart, and take a small gathering half stride between each one,
which means taking off and landing about 8 feet on either side of the
jump. She can slice a jump, but not always without dropping a foot. She
has real trouble with the concept of half-strides and collections. She's
been competing for well over a year and I think we'll pull it together
this year, with the help of a great local jump class and lots of reps
that make her think.

Jumps are 80% of agility, and way too many people give them almost no
thought at all.

  #7  
Old September 1st 05, 05:30 PM
cimawr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


4. Robin Nuttall Sep 1, 11:46 am show options

Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
From: Robin Nuttall - Find messages by this author

Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:46:38 GMT
Local: Thurs, Sep 1 2005 11:46 am
Subject: FYI
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse


I agree mostly, but yeah, I'd have to say that in almost all cases it
does take awhile, sometimes months, sometimes years, for a dog to truly
learn how to jump properly. By that I don't mean the ability to look at
a bar between two standards and know you're supposed to heave the old
bod over it--but to learn how to be a power jumper--how to collect, how
to extend, how to slice, when and how to throw in a half stride or leave
it out, etc. all while not dropping the bar.


But that's not at all the same thing as the article's ludicrous
statements about dogs "jumping from their forelegs" (which is
anatomically impossible) and so forth.

And even so, my experience has been quite different.
Brenin did, and does, all of those things without needing any special
training to do it. *I* needed training in how to signal the correct
path, but once given the correct path, he does all those things
naturally, and has done so from the very beginning. He has dropped bars
no more than 3 times in 8 years of agility, even when jumping 30" - and
every time he did, it was because I called him when he was in mid-jump,
and he dropped a foot turning towards me in mid-air.

Morag's only issue with jumping has been that in the early days she
would sometimes go around a jump rather than take it, because she
would get into full DSG and then wouldn't want to cut stride to loft
over 24" jumps (she's 20.5").
This *only* happened in competitions, and it was more of a stress
issue than a physical training issue - she knew how to handle her body
to do it without any special training, but would get "spazzy" due to
overstimulation etc.
And Rocsi can pretty much handle any jump at any angle as long as
she doesn't get overstimulated and gung-ho.
With both of them, it's not been a matter of training to jump, but
learning to be focused - they already had the physical skills and
coordination.

In Bren's case, it was innate - if he were a horse, he'd be called a
"natural jumper". With the girls, I think it's a combination of innate
ability and the amount of time they spend free-running in the woods.

Jumps are 80% of agility, and way too many people give them almost no
thought at all.


I wouldn't disagree with that (well, except for the percentage, since
I do NADAC where 3 of 5 classes are jumpless g), but IMO the skills
are best learned naturally, by allowing dogs to run free and play, not
by drilling and formal training. In the horse world, the very best
jumpers come out of Ireland, where they are allowed to run free until
age 2 or so.
And there's also the matter of conformation and fitness- the majority
of "bad jumpers" I see have builds not really suited to jumping, have
actual physical problems, and/or are overweight.

  #8  
Old September 1st 05, 05:37 PM
cimawr
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"cimawr"?
Sarah, the use of a cloaking device is against the rules established
by the United Space Federation!


Hah. It's not my fault y'all don't speak Welsh, or that one would
have been obvious.

I'm posting via spit Google from work, which I don't normally do -
everybody's out of the office, and I actually have time on my hands for
once (now that I've got all our field guys' payroll squared away for
the week).
Work is the primary reason I'm not on the groups much anymore -
better job means more work, and also means that due to firewall, I
don't have newsreader use. So on slower days, I sometimes read via
Google, but rarely have or take time to post.

  #9  
Old September 1st 05, 07:00 PM
Rocky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Handsome Jack Morrison said
in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2124888/?GT1=6900


"The bad news: If you haven't been training Fido since he was a
wee pup, you've likely already blown it."

Say what?

While I know the article was written somewhat tongue-in-cheek,
I've trained an adolescent rescue dog to high levels, I've
helped train older dogs to high levels, and I've seen many
rescue dogs on the podium at national events (and not just BCs -
somewhere I've got a picture of a GR sitting on podium #1 with 5
black and whites sitting downstream).

Agility (as is many dog sports) is a great confidence booster
for insecure dogs. Generally, the article is not bad, but it
makes agility training seem a lot more difficult, less fun, and
more competitive than it really is.

"they also have to heel at the appropriate time." That made
made me laugh out loud. Sorry: LOL.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
  #10  
Old September 1st 05, 07:14 PM
Robin Nuttall
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

cimawr wrote:


But that's not at all the same thing as the article's ludicrous
statements about dogs "jumping from their forelegs" (which is
anatomically impossible) and so forth.


I never saw the cite to the article so I haven't read it.

And even so, my experience has been quite different.


Right, but you do understand, I know, that a sample of 3 dogs does not a
statistic make.

We have found that even dogs we thought were extremely good jumpers
improved markedly after taking a structured jump program. Ours uses
elements of Chris Zink, Suzanne Clothier, and our instructor's
background in horse jumping (and yes, I do realize that dogs are very
different than horses in the way they jump).


Jumps are 80% of agility, and way too many people give them almost no
thought at all.



I wouldn't disagree with that (well, except for the percentage, since
I do NADAC where 3 of 5 classes are jumpless g),


Right, but frankly NADAC doesn't ask that much in the way of jumping.
Most of the courses are so spread that tight collections are not often
called for, if at all. So I think that a dog that can jump big and flat
without dropping bars will probably do pretty darn well in NADAC. In AKC
there's more emphasis on city as well as highway driving, and some dogs
that jump very well in NADAC have a lot more trouble in AKC based on the
ones I've seen who have done both, including my own.


but IMO the skills
are best learned naturally, by allowing dogs to run free and play, not
by drilling and formal training. In the horse world, the very best
jumpers come out of Ireland, where they are allowed to run free until
age 2 or so.


I agree, with a caveat. Those horses also get schooled through
cavalettis, grid work, etc. Certainly giving a puppy a good background
in free running is, IMO, essential to having an agility dog that is good
on its feet. But that does not eliminate the needed steps of teaching
them how to jump collected and round as well as spread and flat. A
formal jump class with grids, bounce jumping, etc. can be a real asset.

And there's also the matter of conformation and fitness- the majority
of "bad jumpers" I see have builds not really suited to jumping, have
actual physical problems, and/or are overweight.

Yes and no. Viva has good functional structure but dropped bars because
she was in too much of a hurry and didn't give a rat's ass where her
feet were. Cala has even better structure than her mother, but doesn't
like to collect at all. Neither are in the least overweight. Yet both
have had to learn the skill of jumping.

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.2.0 (Unauthorized Upgrade)
Copyright ©2004-2024 DogBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.