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#1
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Dogs, mirrors, self awareness...
From what little I've seen about it so far, it looks
to me like some people actually believe dogs are not aware of themselves simply because they don't appear to recognise their reflection in a mirror. To me that only means they don't understand a mirror, and has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they have a mental concept of themselves. The facts that they have a mental concept of their objects, their territory, their urine, their body, etc, are all indications that they have a mental concept of themselves, imo. The fact that they are aware of different individual beings is a very strong indication that they are aware of themselves as an individual also imo, especially when considered along with the fact that they have a mental concept of the other things they encounter. Question: Has anyone ever managed to get a dog to understand that it can see its reflection in a mirror, and if so, did it appear to experience a great revelation about its own existence at the instant it learned to do so? |
#2
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dh@. wrote in message ... Question: Has anyone ever managed to get a dog to understand that it can see its reflection in a mirror, and if so, did it appear to experience a great revelation about its own existence at the instant it learned to do so? My puppy discovered the mirror today, and showed great interest in the other puppy in there. My experience has been that my dogs lose interest in mirrors pretty quickly. Whether they do so because they realize it's their own reflection, because the other dog never comes out of the mirror, or because the other dog has no smell is anybody's guess. I've never seen one have an "Aha!" moment about it though. As for dog's having a sense of self, I would agree with that. They recognize other dogs and people as individuals, and I don't think they'd do that unless they were themselves individuals. Bizby |
#3
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dh@. wrote:
From what little I've seen about it so far, it looks to me like some people actually believe dogs are not aware of themselves simply because they don't appear to recognise their reflection in a mirror. Not "only" because of that, ****wit. But the mirror test *IS* a widely acknowledged test of self-awareness among researchers into animal intelligence, and dogs fail it. To me that only means they don't understand a mirror, and has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they have a mental concept of themselves. You aren't an animal intelligence researcher, ****wit. Dogs do NOT give any evidence of self awareness, ****wit. They give NO evidence of understanding that they exist at a particular place and time. You can't even *define* self awareness, ****wit, so everything you say about whether or not dogs have it is meaningless. You simply don't know what you're talking about. Once again, it's just standard ****wit David Harrison bullshit. The facts that they have a mental concept of their objects, their territory, their urine, their body, etc, are all indications that they have a mental concept of themselves, imo. Your opinion is based on ignorance and deceit, ****wit. Your opinion doesn't matter. http://www.sciam.com/1998/1198intell...198debate.html The fact that they are aware of different individual beings Are they, ****wit? What kind of awareness do they have, ****wit? How do you know? is a very strong indication that they are aware of themselves as an individual also imo, I always love your stupid "imo", ****wit. It's the proof positive that you don't know what the **** you're talking about. You're just bullshitting. There is no logical connection between what you say is dogs' awareness of other beings and their supposed self awareness; no logical connection at all. You've merely said it exists, without any foundation for your belief. |
#4
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The general consensus in the literature is that
self-awareness represents a complex, multifaceted neuro-socio-cognitive process (Morin, 2003). It is the capacity to become the object of one’s own attention (Duval and Wicklund, 1972) and to actively identify, process, and store information about the self. It consists in an awareness of one’s own private self-aspects such as mental states (e.g., perceptions, sensations, attitudes, intentions, emotions) and public self-characteristics (e.g., one’s body, behaviors, general physical appearance). Self-awareness also includes knowing that we are the same person across time, that we are the author of our thoughts and actions, and that we are distinct from the environment (Kircher and David, 2003). Thus self-awareness leads to the realization that one exists as an independent and unique entity in the world, and that this existence will eventually cease. http://human-nature.com/ep/reviews/ep01161171.html Dogs do not meet any of that definition. |
#5
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Consider the mental life of a dog, for example.
Presumably, dogs have a rich array of experiences (they feel pain and pleasure, the tree has a particular "look" to it) and they may even have beliefs about the world (Fido believes that his supper dish is empty). Who knows, they may even have special "inner experiences" that accompany those beliefs. However, if we assume that dogs are not self-aware in the stronger sense, then they will lack the ability to critically reflect upon their beliefs and experiences and thus will be unable to have other beliefs about their pleasure or their supper-dish-belief (what philosophers call "second-order beliefs" or "meta-beliefs"). That is to say, they may lack the ability to judge that pleasure may be an unworthy objective in a certain situation or to judge that their belief that the supper dish is empty is unjustified. http://www.ptproject.ilstu.edu/sfaw1.htm ****wit, you are clueless. You will NEVER understand self-awareness, and why no scientist believes dogs possess it. Instead, you'll keep blabbering stupidly about "imo". |
#6
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"diddy" wrote in message ... Bizby i sent you an article at the end of a letter today that I thought you might find helpful. Please let me know you got it. Yes, I did, thanks. I've glanced at it and will read it in depth as soon as I get a chance. Bizby |
#7
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Barneys first experience with his reflection came when I went to an ATM
machine. He saw his reflection and totally flipped out at the other dog. Over time he came to understand that this other dog in the glass wasn't mean and he didn't have to go into attack mode........LOL Brandy never paid much attention to mirrors or reflections. Celeste dh@. wrote in message ... From what little I've seen about it so far, it looks to me like some people actually believe dogs are not aware of themselves simply because they don't appear to recognise their reflection in a mirror. To me that only means they don't understand a mirror, and has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they have a mental concept of themselves. The facts that they have a mental concept of their objects, their territory, their urine, their body, etc, are all indications that they have a mental concept of themselves, imo. The fact that they are aware of different individual beings is a very strong indication that they are aware of themselves as an individual also imo, especially when considered along with the fact that they have a mental concept of the other things they encounter. Question: Has anyone ever managed to get a dog to understand that it can see its reflection in a mirror, and if so, did it appear to experience a great revelation about its own existence at the instant it learned to do so? |
#8
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dh@. wrote:
Question: Has anyone ever managed to get a dog to understand that it can see its reflection in a mirror, and if so, did it appear to experience a great revelation about its own existence at the instant it learned to do so? At this point, at the risk of getting a bit personal, I have to conclude that we have a B.S. artist and a troll on our hands who debates more like a backwoods evangelist than a scientist, appealing to rhetoric and semantics rather than hard data. DH has pretty much ignored my numerous posts and the reference URLs which I have provided, and is obstinately arguing in circles repeating the same questions which I've already answered. I'm afraid he has already made up his mind a long time ago and will never consider yielding his position on this topic no matter what anybody says :-/ You know DH, you don't have to admit that you might be wrong if it's THAT embarrassing for you, or if you just don't quite understand the experiments Rudy and I have mentioned. You could simply say something like "you people make some interesting points, but I don't think the evidence is fully conclusive either way, I just feel in my own personal opinion that animals must at some level have a sense of self-awareness" and just leave it at that, and you could back out gracefully and not lose anybody's respect. But all you do is like to do is argue. - Logic316 "I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers." |
#9
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dh@. wrote:
Question: Has anyone ever managed to get a dog to understand that it can see its reflection in a mirror, and if so, did it appear to experience a great revelation about its own existence at the instant it learned to do so? At this point, at the risk of getting a bit personal, I have to conclude that we have a B.S. artist and a troll on our hands who debates more like a backwoods evangelist than a scientist, appealing to rhetoric and semantics rather than hard data. DH has pretty much ignored my numerous posts and the reference URLs which I have provided, and is obstinately arguing in circles repeating the same questions which I've already answered. I'm afraid he has already made up his mind a long time ago and will never consider yielding his position on this topic no matter what anybody says :-/ You know DH, you don't have to admit that you might be wrong if it's THAT embarrassing for you, or if you just don't fully understand the experiments Rudy and I have mentioned. You could simply say something like "you people make some interesting points, but I don't think the evidence is fully conclusive either way, I just feel in my own personal opinion that animals must at some level have a sense of self-awareness" and just leave it at that, and you could back out gracefully and not lose anybody's respect. But all you do is like to argue! - Logic316 "I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers." |
#10
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dh@. wrote:
Question: Has anyone ever managed to get a dog to understand that it can see its reflection in a mirror, and if so, did it appear to experience a great revelation about its own existence at the instant it learned to do so? At this point, at the risk of getting a bit personal, I have to conclude that we have a B.S. artist and a troll on our hands who debates more like a backwoods evangelist than a scientist, appealing to rhetoric and semantics rather than hard data. DH has pretty much ignored my numerous posts and the reference URLs which I have provided, and is obstinately arguing in circles repeating the same questions which I've already answered. I'm afraid he has already made up his mind a long time ago and will never consider yielding his position on this topic no matter what anybody says :-/ You know DH, you don't have to admit that you might be wrong if it's THAT embarrassing for you, or if you just don't quite understand the experiments Rudy and I have mentioned. You could simply say something like "you people make some interesting points, but I don't think the evidence is fully conclusive either way, I just feel in my own personal opinion that animals must at some level have a sense of self-awareness" and just leave it at that, and you could back out gracefully and not lose anybody's respect. But all like to do is argue! - Logic316 "I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers." |
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