Help!!

My neighbors are apparently thinking ahead to their next boxer. They
commented to DH this morning that they had seen an absolutely striking boxer
in a nearby town and pulled over to ask where they got the dog. It was
described as a red fawn and came from a breeder in Virginia. The owner
indicated that they breed especially for this color.

I am always leery of anyone breeding for one color. Color should never
be the primary reason behind a breeding - too much else more important gets
sidelined. DH tried to make this point to them but I don't know if he got
through or not. We *will* make another attempt to explain responsible
breeders to them if it appears that they are really planning another dog.
The problem is that they consider most of that stuff as elitist and are
prone to impulse purchases. And if a breeder tells them all her dogs are
healthy, then they'll consider that a health check.

But that aside, is there anything you can tell me about red fawn boxers?
It appears from the AKC site that it is an accepted color in itself. Is
there anything concrete, plus or minus, that I can pass on to them? Any
ideas on how I can get them to be both more careful about their selection
and more dedicated to training?

I am especially concerned because their current boxer, while good
tempered, is very poorly trained and even more poorly socialized with other
dogs. I had hoped that they might not replace him. These people have had
well behaved boxers in the past but with each new dog their dedication to
training has diminished. Their current boxer can't be trusted with their
small grandchildren - not mean, just has no concept of self-control. People
who love dogs (us!) are hesitant to go anywhere near this dog because he is
so abusively energetic. They realize these things but think the dog is just
misunderstood and underappreciated.

Got any information I can pass on to them?
Thanks,
--
Judy
Spenser - Carbor Talk of the Town, OA, OAJ, NJC, NGC
Sassy - Can CH Carbor Back Talk, NA, NAJ

"Judy" wrote in message
...

I am always leery of anyone breeding for one color. Color should never
be the primary reason behind a breeding - too much else more important
gets
sidelined.

I think that's generally true but there are alot of Boxer breeders who don't
mix brindle & fawn. They have a preference and they stick to that
preference so often you find brindle breeders and fawn breeders.

The problem is that they consider most of that stuff as elitist and are
prone to impulse purchases. And if a breeder tells them all her dogs are
healthy, then they'll consider that a health check.

That's a very common perception and there *are* elitist breeders out there.
If you write to a breeder asking for info and get a snotty reply or are told
its going to be 3 years then alot of people are going to go the more
accessible & friendly route of a byb dog.

But that aside, is there anything you can tell me about red fawn
boxers?

I suspect they just mean fawn and are unwittingly adding "red" in there.
I've heard this done before with fawns as well as people saying "black
brindle" for reverse brindle. This breeder's dogs may be more on the red
side of fawn than the lighter tan side so that's cause for some people to
specify color as well.

It appears from the AKC site that it is an accepted color in itself. Is
there anything concrete, plus or minus, that I can pass on to them? Any
ideas on how I can get them to be both more careful about their selection
and more dedicated to training?

If they think talk of finding a responsible breeder is elitist or you notice
them just nodding in agreement while you talk then they're probably not
going to listen to anything along those lines. You could point them toward
any number of rescue websites to show them how many purebred Boxers are in
rescues and how many are listed on Petfinder. People tend to think
shelter/rescue=mixed breed. Maybe seeing how many purebreds are homeless
will cause them to think a little harder about who they buy from and the
temperament they want.

As for training, sad to say, alot of people who've had dogs for a long time,
or a certain breed for a long time, don't take kindly to being offered
training advice. They figure they know it all already from experience. I'm
even guilty of that at times.

Their current boxer can't be trusted with their
small grandchildren - not mean, just has no concept of self-control.
People
who love dogs (us!) are hesitant to go anywhere near this dog because he
is
so abusively energetic. They realize these things but think the dog is
just
misunderstood and underappreciated.

I hate to say it but if the dog is a youngish male then that in-your-face
jumping, boinging, wiggling, annoying energy is normal. I'm not saying you
can't get obedience out of such a dog but it generally has to come in
military-style or NILIF training in order to overcome that energy and
brainlessness. Boxers aren't like that so much when in the home. Its when
people come over and there's an audience or new person to get attention from
that they go braindead.

Got any information I can pass on to them?

I don't know that I gave you any help. If they've always had Boxers then
they are familiar with the breed's traits and obvioulsy enjoy those traits.
I wouldn't worry about that aspect too much but learning that their existing
Boxer isn't well socialized with other dogs I would caution that they:

1. Get a female. There is a propensity towards same-gender aggression in
some members of the breed so always go with the opposite sex than the one
you currently have.

2. Get one of the more mellow of the litter, not skittish (never skittish!),
not bossy, not the most energetic. Their male is already highly energetic
and its possible he's pretty dominant. Boxers are also very jealous dogs in
general so don't give him a mate he'll view as heavy competition.

You can't force people to buy from an ethical breeder. It can be pretty
hard to find out who is ethical if you're not involved in that world
already. It can also be difficult at times to find a breeder who doesn't
come off as a total snob or who doesn't have the next 2 litters earmarked.

I'm not arguing in favor of byb but there *is* an argument that well-bred
dogs from ethical breeders are hard to come by. Until they're not so hard
to come by people will keep going the byb route. I think it can be very
beneficial to have the opportunity to impart words of wisdom and be around
after the purchase as well as before so if they don't take your advice now
maybe you'll succeed later.


--
Tara

3.

"Handsome Jack Morrison" wrote in
message ...
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 08:20:13 -0400, "Judy"
wrote:

Got any information I can pass on to them?

Yes!

George Bush is personally responsible for their dog's poor training
and socialization!

So would they settle for a FREE $2000 debit card and a FREE trip to
Las Vegas?

FYI Boxers are ethically opposed to gambling and they have no need of money.
They believe in making their own luck by sheer force & determination and its
their contention that humans should pay for the catering of Boxer whims &
needs.

Now that doesn't mean they'd turn down Vegas. They'd go for the stage, the
bright lights, the audience. It'd be a dream come true to ply their trade
in a place that'll reward them with loud cheers and encores.

Hell, Fancy's foaming at the mouth thinking you were serious. YOU come tell
her she's not really going to Vegas.

--
Tara

"Tee" wrote in message
...
I suspect they just mean fawn and are unwittingly adding "red" in there.

No, the attraction to this dog - and what the breeder was after - was the
red mahogany like color. They have a fairly flashy fawn now. This was
apparently an unusually red shade - but still fawn and I assume with white
flash. I suspect it's rather like breeding goldens to be darker or lighter
shades. But, okay, no red flags on the red color, even though it did
appear to be the breeder's primary consideration.

You could point them toward
any number of rescue websites to show them how many purebred Boxers are in
rescues and how many are listed on Petfinder.

This I may do. It just feels a little like encouraging them to get another
dog/boxer. I've been avoiding doing it because I really would prefer that
they either not get a dog (they're doing a lot more travelling and
dogsitters for this dog have become scarce) or get something other than a
boxer this time since their luck to get one that trains itself hasn't been
too good on the last couple. (Unfortunately, they're not Golden-type
people.)

I hate to say it but if the dog is a youngish male then that in-your-face
jumping, boinging, wiggling, annoying energy is normal.

The dog is now approaching ten. There is no hope for him - which is too bad
because he is a really sweet dog. We have hoped for some maturation process
over the years, giving the young boxer some leeway, ( and that hope is all
that has kept the dog alive and not had him mysteriously shot while the
owners are out of town) but it hasn't come about. Now we are all taking
heart in the grey muzzle and the slightly slower step. He does settle down
after ten or fifteen minutes of being inside the house with him - that took
several years. But if he's in the yard when I go to the mailbox, the odds
are about even that I'll come back inside with a new bruise from him.

I don't know that I gave you any help. If they've always had Boxers then
they are familiar with the breed's traits and obvioulsy enjoy those
traits.

This is at least the fourth boxer they've had. They had an absolutely
wonderful boxer over thirty years ago. Before they had kids. The dog got
lots of attention as a puppy and was well-behaved (but still a boinging
boxer when allowed to be) when we all started having little kids around. We
all (the friends and neighbors) loved that dog. They haven't replicated him
since but this last dog has been the worst. I think that's what it really
sad for us - we do accept how young boxers are and how wonderful they can
become. I hate to see another dog end up like this one. So I'm grasping at
straws to direct them in another direction.

I wouldn't worry about that aspect too much but learning that their
existing
Boxer isn't well socialized with other dogs I would caution that they:

1. Get a female.

By unsocialized I mean what is typically exuberant boxer play - but is not
acceptable to most other breeds. He LOVES other dogs but doesn't know how
to behave around them. He is just too excited at the chance to play. The
possibility of one of my miniature schnauzers getting hurt when rolled
several times by a cannonballing boxer isn't something I can live with.
Their daughter brings two Rotts when she visits and they gang up on the
boxer so have to be kept separated. They also have an older female beagle
and they get along fine. She just snarls at him. My previous schnauzer
used to grab him (as a much younger dog) by the jowls and shake - that
seemed to work. When my brother visits with his Golden, the boxer tucks
tail and runs at the first play bow. So his reactions are kind of a mixed
bag.

I'm *assuming* that they are not planning a puppy until this boxer is gone.
That's what they normally do. But they won't be without a dog for very long
so planning and waiting for one from a specific breeder or litter isn't
likely. BYB - but one they convince themselves is responsible - is the most
likely route. And the actual dogs they've gotten their way have not been a
problem either health-wise or temperamentally. So it's a hard argument to
make. They spend way more time searching for a vet who will crop the ears
the way they want than they do researching the breeder. But it has mostly
worked for them.

2. Get one of the more mellow of the litter,

THIS I can definitely suggest to them because they ARE aware that they've
had problems with this dog. The grandchildren make a compelling argument.
..
I think it can be very
beneficial to have the opportunity to impart words of wisdom and be around
after the purchase as well as before so if they don't take your advice now
maybe you'll succeed later.

I really hope that this will work. When he was a puppy, they SWORE they
were going to puppy obedience class. I strongly encouraged it. Even as the
dog got older, I still kept mentioning all the possible benefits even at two
or four years of age. They were just too busy with their lives and what
could have been a really sweet dog is almost universally hated. Even their
own family avoids him. Friends refuse to go to the house.

Ah well. I'll do what I can. I certainly do things differently - and I
hope better - with each dog I get. You did remind me that there are some
things I can keep mentioning to them for their NEXT dog (since it seems
there will be a "next") and maybe their experience with this one will make
them a littler more ready to listen.

Thanks,
Judy
Spenser - Carbor Talk of the Town, OA, OAJ, NJC, NGC
Sassy - Can CH Carbor Back Talk, NA, NAJ

"Handsome Jack Morrison" wrote in
message ...
George Bush is personally responsible for their dog's poor training
and socialization!

No, they got the dog during the Clinton years. So obviously it was Bill's
example that encouraged the dog's lack of self control.

So would they settle for a FREE $2000 debit card and a FREE trip to
Las Vegas?

The OWNERS certainly would. Except that when they get back - having spent
$5000 on the trip - they will then go out and get the new dog anyway.
--
Judy
Spenser - Carbor Talk of the Town, OA, OAJ, NJC, NGC
Sassy - Can CH Carbor Back Talk, NA, NAJ

"Judy" wrote in message
...

This I may do. It just feels a little like encouraging them to get
another
dog/boxer. I've been avoiding doing it because I really would prefer that
they either not get a dog (they're doing a lot more travelling and
dogsitters for this dog have become scarce) or get something other than a
boxer this time since their luck to get one that trains itself hasn't been
too good on the last couple. (Unfortunately, they're not Golden-type
people.)

Its kinda hard to go off Boxers once you've loved one.

The dog is now approaching ten. There is no hope for him - which is too
bad
because he is a really sweet dog.

Holy crap! A 10yo Boxer is acting like an untrained 18mo? I can't help but
wonder if its not the dog in this case. I'll explain later.

We have hoped for some maturation process
over the years, giving the young boxer some leeway, ( and that hope is all
that has kept the dog alive and not had him mysteriously shot while the
owners are out of town) but it hasn't come about. Now we are all taking
heart in the grey muzzle and the slightly slower step. He does settle
down
after ten or fifteen minutes of being inside the house with him - that
took
several years. But if he's in the yard when I go to the mailbox, the odds
are about even that I'll come back inside with a new bruise from him.

Is he left outside by himself all the time? If so then I'd point my finger
right there as the cause of most of his behavioral problems. Regardless
though it almost sounds like he's one of those ADHD Boxers I've posted about
before. I know one who acts like an obsessive-compulsive dingbat on speed.
He's a very sweet dog, he had problems early in life, but he gets *worse* as
he ages despite consistent training and lots of attention (he has no
children or significant others to take attention away from him). He is
truly very intelligent and picks up things so easily when he's focused, he
just goes into some kind of overload mode at the drop of a dime and the more
excited he gets the more excited he gets (if that makes sense) until he's
ready to explode. He drives me absolutely crazy and there's times I want to
physically harm him to make him just stop doing whatever he's doing.

This is at least the fourth boxer they've had. They had an absolutely
wonderful boxer over thirty years ago. Before they had kids. The dog got
lots of attention as a puppy and was well-behaved (but still a boinging
boxer when allowed to be) when we all started having little kids around.
We
all (the friends and neighbors) loved that dog. They haven't replicated
him
since but this last dog has been the worst. I think that's what it really
sad for us - we do accept how young boxers are and how wonderful they can
become. I hate to see another dog end up like this one. So I'm grasping
at
straws to direct them in another direction.

I don't know the dog or your neighbors so I can't say with any kind of
certainty whether this poor dog is one of those wired-in-the-head dogs,
hasn't gotten sufficient attention, hasn't gotten sufficient training, etc.
Generally Boxers chill out as they age regardless of whether or not they've
received adequate training & attention. If they're allowed in the house
they automatically get more attention than outside-only dogs so if he's
allowed inside and he's 10yo but still a total PITA then I'd really suspect
something mental.

I wouldn't worry about that aspect too much but learning that their
existing
Boxer isn't well socialized with other dogs I would caution that they:

1. Get a female.

By unsocialized I mean what is typically exuberant boxer play - but is not
acceptable to most other breeds. He LOVES other dogs but doesn't know how
to behave around them.

Heh, welcome to the foremost problem plaguing 75% of Boxers today. Despite
good socialization they are handicapped in that area for some reason.
They're too physical, too in-your-face, too reactive, too everything and
they don't seem to understand how to be any different.

He is just too excited at the chance to play. The
possibility of one of my miniature schnauzers getting hurt when rolled
several times by a cannonballing boxer isn't something I can live with.

Ohhh, I like that...canonballing. I'm stealing it.

Their daughter brings two Rotts when she visits and they gang up on the
boxer so have to be kept separated. They also have an older female beagle
and they get along fine. She just snarls at him. My previous schnauzer
used to grab him (as a much younger dog) by the jowls and shake - that
seemed to work. When my brother visits with his Golden, the boxer tucks
tail and runs at the first play bow. So his reactions are kind of a mixed
bag.

LOL. Goldens are big meanies in a deceptively pretty package.

I'm *assuming* that they are not planning a puppy until this boxer is
gone.
That's what they normally do. But they won't be without a dog for very
long
so planning and waiting for one from a specific breeder or litter isn't
likely. BYB - but one they convince themselves is responsible - is the
most
likely route. And the actual dogs they've gotten their way have not been
a
problem either health-wise or temperamentally. So it's a hard argument to
make.

Yes, it is. Why would someone who has always had good dogs believe they
should go on a hunt for a dog from an ethical breeder who probably charges
more, makes you wait longer, asks intrusive questions and wants to retain
some form of control over the dog? Its nonsensical to many people. Having
had so many wonderful dogs through rescue, almost all being byb, the ratio
of great ones to bad ones (tempearment & healthwise) actually made an
argument for byb being ok in terms of quality.

They spend way more time searching for a vet who will crop the ears
the way they want than they do researching the breeder. But it has mostly
worked for them.

Blech.

I really hope that this will work. When he was a puppy, they SWORE they
were going to puppy obedience class. I strongly encouraged it. Even as
the
dog got older, I still kept mentioning all the possible benefits even at
two
or four years of age. They were just too busy with their lives and what
could have been a really sweet dog is almost universally hated. Even
their
own family avoids him. Friends refuse to go to the house.

That's so sad Life gets in the way for alot of people and its only in
hindsight that you realize what you could've/should've made time for but
didn't.

Ah well. I'll do what I can. I certainly do things differently - and I
hope better - with each dog I get. You did remind me that there are some
things I can keep mentioning to them for their NEXT dog (since it seems
there will be a "next") and maybe their experience with this one will make
them a littler more ready to listen.

Sorry I wasn't of more help. I guess I've just learned that when people
want a dog they generally want one now (or whenever their "now" is) and they
really don't want to go through an ordeal of finding a breeder who doesn't
advertise and who is going to make them do more than hand over some money.
I've also found that people generally only hear what they want and as long
as something isn't a huge bother to them they aren't going to make a
concerted effort to fix it. I may just be cynical or too accepting but
beating my head against one brick wall after another over the years has
taught me some things.


--
Tara

"Tee" wrote in message
...
"Judy" wrote in message
...

I am always leery of anyone breeding for one color. Color should
never
be the primary reason behind a breeding - too much else more important
gets
sidelined.

only responding to color, not to behavior (deferring to Tara on that one!)

i'd think that only breeding for fawn would reduce or nearly eliminate the
chances of deaf or partially deaf dogs (comes with flashy dogs, which often
have whites in their litters), which is a good thing. now if they're doing
other health testing...

-kelly

"culprit" wrote in message
...

"Tee" wrote in message
...
"Judy" wrote in message
...

I am always leery of anyone breeding for one color. Color should
never
be the primary reason behind a breeding - too much else more important
gets
sidelined.

only responding to color, not to behavior (deferring to Tara on that one!)

i'd think that only breeding for fawn would reduce or nearly eliminate the
chances of deaf or partially deaf dogs (comes with flashy dogs, which
often have whites in their litters), which is a good thing. now if
they're doing other health testing...

Breeding for color doesn't help that as its breeding for markings that helps
or hinders white pups and deafness. Breeding for plain fawn or brindle
(classic with white chest & feet, maybe a splash on the nose) is better than
breeding for flashy fawn or brindle (white chest, stockings, facial
markings). As long as flash continues to place higher than plain in the
show ring breeders who want those titles will continue to breed for it

--
Tara

on 2005-09-13 at 09:10 wrote:

i'd think that only breeding for fawn would reduce or nearly
eliminate the chances of deaf or partially deaf dogs (comes
with flashy dogs, which often have whites in their litters),
which is a good thing.

it's not that easy. in Boxers, the problem is the extreme
amount of flash that is currently fashionable, not whether the
dogs are fawn or brindle. so if you breed for flashy fawns
(like harriet)--regardless of whether they're stag red or
light tan--you'll inevitably have some white pups. stop
breeding for flash, period, and you greatly reduce the chances
of deafness in your pups.

now if they're doing other health testing...

exactly. i'd be as interested in longevity, congenital heart
diseases, and cancer as i would temperament. in Boxers, i
think all are equally important.

--
shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com/
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com/ (updated 7/10/05)

on 2005-09-13 at 11:26 wrote:

This I may do. It just feels a little like encouraging them
to get another dog/boxer. I've been avoiding doing it
because I really would prefer that they either not get a dog
(they're doing a lot more travelling and dogsitters for this
dog have become scarce) or get something other than a boxer
this time since their luck to get one that trains itself
hasn't been too good on the last couple.

if they love Boxers, they love Boxers. encouraging them to go
to another breed will A) not solve the lack of training
problem and B) will potentially result in a poor dog-owner
match.

(Unfortunately, they're not Golden-type people.)

how so? i don't think an untrained Golden sounds any better
than an untrained Boxer. it sounds to me like the problem
lies with the owners, not the breed of dog.

--
shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com/
http://letters-to-esther.blogspot.com/ (updated 7/10/05)