.....do you?

I'm not worried about the first incident but would like some advice about
working on it, and the second incident is the one I don't *think* I need to
worry about...

A couple of days ago Saskia was playing with a lab friend of hers. He had a
ball, and she got ahold of it at one point and started playing keep away.
The dog's owner was eventually ready to leave, and I called Saskia over and
managed to get the ball from her (we really need work on "drop it"). It fell
to the ground, and the lab went for it. Saskia growled and showed a lot of
teeth and grabbed it again. She has recently learned to be possessive of
things she finds in the field, but only toward other dogs. I got it away
again and handed it to the lab. He took it quite roughly. I don't know if
Saskia was just feeling particularly confident or if she thought he bit me,
but she went for him, and because of where my hand was she got me
instead--proof she wasn't actually trying to bite him, because her entire
mouth closed on my hand, leaving me with some very light bruising on the
right edge. Then she chased him, and I yelled at her to indicate that this
was unacceptable behavior. She did a very half-hearted "I'm sorry" display
and stood there wagging, so I realized that on one level she'd thought it
was all a kind of play. We all went our separate ways.

The next day, yesterday, she was lying on the couch chewing on her bone. The
baby has always handled her things with no reaction from her, even though we
try to discourage it. This is a small apartment and he likes to walk around
holding onto furniture, and if he comes upon something interesting he grabs
it. We've been telling him not to take her things and giving them back to
her. Many times he's managed to get the jump on us and has taken a toy or
bone right out of her mouth. She's always given me a helpless look and
waited to get it back.

THIS time, he touched the bone and she let out a small growl. It was clear
she was uncertain about things, though, because she was blinking at Walter
and then looked away. I immediately told her in no uncertain terms what a
VERY BAD DOG she was, and took the bone away (no objection from her). I put
the bone behind me on the adjacent couch and told her off, but because it
was a first offense and she had technically never been taught not to do it I
didn't exactly flay her alive. She got the message, and lay there with her
chin on her paws looking very sorry. I then gave the bone back, and over the
next several minutes I reached out several times without warning and took it
out of her mouth and then praised her like crazy when she didn't murmur
about it, and gave it back.

There has been no repeat, but then, Walter hasn't happened to cruise by
while she was chewing on it, although yesterday she was chewing on a piece
of rawhide she's using as chewing gum, and trying to be close to Walter
because she loves him, and he reached out and fingered it briefly and she
never even glanced at him.

Thus I think instead of worrying about this or trying harder to limit
dog/baby/chew-thing encounters, I should just keep an eye on things. What
are you folks' takes on this?

Thanks,
Katrina

"White Monkey" wrote in message
...
....do you?

[..]

I immediately told her in no uncertain terms what a
VERY BAD DOG she was, and took the bone away (no objection from her). I
put the bone behind me on the adjacent couch and told her off, but because
it was a first offense and she had technically never been taught not to do
it I didn't exactly flay her alive. She got the message, and lay there
with her chin on her paws looking very sorry. I then gave the bone back,
and over the next several minutes I reached out several times without
warning and took it out of her mouth and then praised her like crazy when
she didn't murmur about it, and gave it back.

_______________________

I would suggest that you never, ever tell a dog off for growling, cos a
growl is the dog's only means saying I am not happy, so please back off. If
she thinks she's not allowed to growl, she might just jump to the next stage
of biting, but given all that I've said in the past, I would more likely
expect her to get up and take her chew elsewhere.

Thus I think instead of worrying about this or trying harder to limit
dog/baby/chew-thing encounters, I should just keep an eye on things. What
are you folks' takes on this?

I would limit the chew toy and baby encounters. By all means give her
chewies, but make sure that the baby is well out of the way. Its just not
worth putting either at risk (presuming that if the dog bit the baby
severely then she would be pts or rehomed) for the sake of a baby gate.

Diana
--
Cindy the weimaraner's web site:
http://cindy-incidentally.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk

I would suggest that you never, ever tell a dog off for growling, cos a
growl is the dog's only means saying I am not happy, so please back off.
If she thinks she's not allowed to growl, she might just jump to the next
stage of biting, but given all that I've said in the past, I would more
likely expect her to get up and take her chew elsewhere.

Well, Saskia is a lot smarter than lots of other breeds.... But I am open to
this, so given that we want her to realize that Walter is human and thus
permitted to touch her things (even if we'll be trying to keep him from
doing so), how SHOULD we tell her this if not by reprimanding her verbally?
We have just ordered the book "Mine" which was recommended to us by a Dane
trainer online, but meanwhile any advice is appreciated.

Thus I think instead of worrying about this or trying harder to limit
dog/baby/chew-thing encounters, I should just keep an eye on things. What
are you folks' takes on this?
I would limit the chew toy and baby encounters. By all means give her
chewies, but make sure that the baby is well out of the way. Its just not
worth putting either at risk (presuming that if the dog bit the baby
severely then she would be pts or rehomed) for the sake of a baby gate.
Diana

There's the rub... there's nowhere to gate her (or him) TO, She likes to
chew on her bone during idle moments on the sofa, and there is nowhere else
to send her.... If she goes into our bedroom unsupervised she has a tendency
to get onto the bed and claw the sheets into something she finds
comfortable, and I'm tired of repairing holes. That only leaves the kitchen,
so narrow we would not be able to walk along if she was there, and the
bathroom, the size of a potage stamp--she can't lie down in there. We've
been trying not to be too obvious about getting all her toys out of the way
when the baby's around because then she might think he's not allowed to
touch them, an of course when he's four or five I might WANT him to pick one
up and put it on the couch or something and we wouldn't be able to explain
to her what had changed. There's nowhere to put a crate to keep Walter out
of, either, and he can now reach to the back of the sofa.... I will do my
best to take your advice but in the end it may mean not having her toys
around for the bulk of the day, and then she'd be unhappy if she wanted to
lie on the sofa but not sleep, because that's when she goes to work on her
bone, Nylabone, or whatever's going. Do you have any ideas about what to do
about this?

We are looking at a new apartment at the end of the week, and it MAY be
bigger... we don't know yet. If it is at all possible we'll create a place
for her to have her bones and teach her to keep them there. But it may not
be possible.

Thanks,
Katrina

"White Monkey" wrote in message
...

[..]
it may mean not having her toys
around for the bulk of the day, and then she'd be unhappy if she wanted to
lie on the sofa but not sleep, because that's when she goes to work on her
bone, Nylabone, or whatever's going. Do you have any ideas about what to
do about this?


I can't remember how old your baby is, but he is less than a year old? so he
needs a lot of little sleeps anyway.

We have a toy box where Cin's toys are kept. We leave a tuggy out for her as
her thing to grab if she wants to play rough (cos this is what we taught her
as a pup) but otherwise, we dish out the toys so if the circumstance wasn't
right, she won't get them. Because we take Cin to the pub with us a lot, I
particularly like her to have her treats there so that she doesn't go
hustling the other customers for attention, and in giving them less
frequently, tthey retain higher value. Luckily though, Cin does not have one
iota of guarding instinct in her - well, except for rabbit holes lol

Why not just give out toys when the baby is asleep? That way while she's
busy and he's sleeping, hopefully you'll get a few mins to put your feet up
too.

Diana

--
Cindy the weimaraner's web site:
http://cindy-incidentally.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk

One thing we are working *very* hard on with both the animals and the boys
is a "no touch" zone. For the cats, it's their tower. When they are on the
tower, the boys are *not* allowed to interact with them--no touching, no
playing with, nothing. Anywhere else, they may play with the cats (as long
as they're gentle), but as soon as the cat retreats to the tower, play is
over. The cats have this figured out: they know they will not be bothered
by *anybody* (hubby and I respect their retreat, and we explain it to any
and all guests). For Macula, we're trying to get her to see her crate
(which is now in the living room) as the same sort of a retreat. The idea
is that the animal has a place to go where they are assured of not being
disturbed.

If you can find a place like that for Saskia, a dog bed in the corner or
anywhere, Walter can start learning even now that he doesn't go near that
spot, or near Saskia when she's in that spot. It will still require a lot
of supervision, and I'd say for right now *never* leave Walter free roaming
around Saskia if you're not there. I mean, put him in the playpen if you
have to answer the door, or take Saskia with you if you're leaving the room.

How old is Walter now? Something someone suggested to us, to help Macula
start to see the boys as humans instead of puppies, was supervising play
where we helped the boys play with Macula in human/dog style games. The
very earliest we did was sit with the boys in our lap and teach them to
throw a ball for Macula. When (if) she brings it back (fetch has never been
her best command) we encourage her to drop it in the boy's hand/lap so they
can throw it again.

Marie

"White Monkey" wrote in message
...
I would suggest that you never, ever tell a dog off for growling, cos a
growl is the dog's only means saying I am not happy, so please back off.
If she thinks she's not allowed to growl, she might just jump to the next
stage of biting, but given all that I've said in the past, I would more
likely expect her to get up and take her chew elsewhere.

Well, Saskia is a lot smarter than lots of other breeds.... But I am open
to this, so given that we want her to realize that Walter is human and
thus permitted to touch her things (even if we'll be trying to keep him
from doing so), how SHOULD we tell her this if not by reprimanding her
verbally? We have just ordered the book "Mine" which was recommended to us
by a Dane trainer online, but meanwhile any advice is appreciated.

Thus I think instead of worrying about this or trying harder to limit
dog/baby/chew-thing encounters, I should just keep an eye on things.
What are you folks' takes on this?
I would limit the chew toy and baby encounters. By all means give her
chewies, but make sure that the baby is well out of the way. Its just not
worth putting either at risk (presuming that if the dog bit the baby
severely then she would be pts or rehomed) for the sake of a baby gate.
Diana

There's the rub... there's nowhere to gate her (or him) TO, She likes to
chew on her bone during idle moments on the sofa, and there is nowhere
else to send her.... If she goes into our bedroom unsupervised she has a
tendency to get onto the bed and claw the sheets into something she finds
comfortable, and I'm tired of repairing holes. That only leaves the
kitchen, so narrow we would not be able to walk along if she was there,
and the bathroom, the size of a potage stamp--she can't lie down in there.
We've been trying not to be too obvious about getting all her toys out of
the way when the baby's around because then she might think he's not
allowed to touch them, an of course when he's four or five I might WANT
him to pick one up and put it on the couch or something and we wouldn't be
able to explain to her what had changed. There's nowhere to put a crate to
keep Walter out of, either, and he can now reach to the back of the
sofa.... I will do my best to take your advice but in the end it may mean
not having her toys around for the bulk of the day, and then she'd be
unhappy if she wanted to lie on the sofa but not sleep, because that's
when she goes to work on her bone, Nylabone, or whatever's going. Do you
have any ideas about what to do about this?

We are looking at a new apartment at the end of the week, and it MAY be
bigger... we don't know yet. If it is at all possible we'll create a place
for her to have her bones and teach her to keep them there. But it may not
be possible.

Thanks,
Katrina

P.S. I book a lot of people on this ng recommended to me, and I have found
useful, is "Child-proofing Your Dog" by Brian Kilcommons. It's an easy read
for busy parents, and each chapter focusses on a different age, so the book
grows with your family.

Marie

"White Monkey" wrote in message
...
I would suggest that you never, ever tell a dog off for growling, cos a
growl is the dog's only means saying I am not happy, so please back off.
If she thinks she's not allowed to growl, she might just jump to the next
stage of biting, but given all that I've said in the past, I would more
likely expect her to get up and take her chew elsewhere.

Well, Saskia is a lot smarter than lots of other breeds.... But I am open
to this, so given that we want her to realize that Walter is human and
thus permitted to touch her things (even if we'll be trying to keep him
from doing so), how SHOULD we tell her this if not by reprimanding her
verbally? We have just ordered the book "Mine" which was recommended to us
by a Dane trainer online, but meanwhile any advice is appreciated.

Thus I think instead of worrying about this or trying harder to limit
dog/baby/chew-thing encounters, I should just keep an eye on things.
What are you folks' takes on this?
I would limit the chew toy and baby encounters. By all means give her
chewies, but make sure that the baby is well out of the way. Its just not
worth putting either at risk (presuming that if the dog bit the baby
severely then she would be pts or rehomed) for the sake of a baby gate.
Diana

There's the rub... there's nowhere to gate her (or him) TO, She likes to
chew on her bone during idle moments on the sofa, and there is nowhere
else to send her.... If she goes into our bedroom unsupervised she has a
tendency to get onto the bed and claw the sheets into something she finds
comfortable, and I'm tired of repairing holes. That only leaves the
kitchen, so narrow we would not be able to walk along if she was there,
and the bathroom, the size of a potage stamp--she can't lie down in there.
We've been trying not to be too obvious about getting all her toys out of
the way when the baby's around because then she might think he's not
allowed to touch them, an of course when he's four or five I might WANT
him to pick one up and put it on the couch or something and we wouldn't be
able to explain to her what had changed. There's nowhere to put a crate to
keep Walter out of, either, and he can now reach to the back of the
sofa.... I will do my best to take your advice but in the end it may mean
not having her toys around for the bulk of the day, and then she'd be
unhappy if she wanted to lie on the sofa but not sleep, because that's
when she goes to work on her bone, Nylabone, or whatever's going. Do you
have any ideas about what to do about this?

We are looking at a new apartment at the end of the week, and it MAY be
bigger... we don't know yet. If it is at all possible we'll create a place
for her to have her bones and teach her to keep them there. But it may not
be possible.

Thanks,
Katrina

it may mean not having her toys
around for the bulk of the day, and then she'd be unhappy if she wanted
to lie on the sofa but not sleep, because that's when she goes to work on
her bone, Nylabone, or whatever's going. Do you have any ideas about what
to do about this?

I can't remember how old your baby is, but he is less than a year old? so
he needs a lot of little sleeps anyway.
Diana

He'll be one on Sunday. He takes two naps per day, between 1/2 hour and 2
1/2 hours long. My husband is against not letting Saskers have her things,
but ALL in favor of "aggressively" training walter to leave them alonw when
she's "using" them.
--Katrina

The idea is that the animal has a place to go where they are assured of not
being disturbed.
If you can find a place like that for Saskia, a dog bed in the corner or
anywhere, Walter can start learning even now that he doesn't go near that
spot, or near Saskia when she's in that spot.

Not, sadly, possible in this apartment, but we look at one in Haarlem at the
end of the week, and I hope it is bigger and/or better laid out.

I'd say for right now *never* leave Walter free roaming around Saskia if
you're not there. I mean, put him in the playpen if you have to answer
the door, or take Saskia with you if you're leaving the room.

Oh, not to worry!! They're never alone together unless he's in the playpen;
we're not so well baby proofed here anyway and monkey Boy--I mean, the Army
of 12 Monkeys--can and will get into everything if left to his own devives.

How old is Walter now?

He'll be one on Sunday.

Something someone suggested to us, to help Macula start to see the boys
as humans instead of puppies, was supervising play where we helped the
boys play with Macula in human/dog style games. The very earliest we did
was sit with the boys in our lap and teach them to throw a ball for
Macula. When (if) she brings it back (fetch has never been her best
command) we encourage her to drop it in the boy's hand/lap so they can
throw it again.
Marie

I think we'll be starting something like this, too. Saskia, though, does
retrieve, but adores a good game of take-away--we really need to work on
"drop it".
--Katrina

"marie" wrote in message
...
P.S. I book a lot of people on this ng recommended to me, and I have
found useful, is "Child-proofing Your Dog" by Brian Kilcommons. It's an
easy read for busy parents, and each chapter focusses on a different age,
so the book grows with your family.

Marie


I'll probably order that one too.
--Katrina

"White Monkey" wrote in message


...

....do you?


[..]

I immediately told her in no uncertain terms what a



VERY BAD DOG she was, and took the bone away (no objection from her). I
put the bone behind me on the adjacent couch and told her off, but because
it was a first offense and she had technically never been taught not to do
it I didn't exactly flay her alive. She got the message, and lay there
with her chin on her paws looking very sorry. I then gave the bone back,
and over the next several minutes I reached out several times without
warning and took it out of her mouth and then praised her like crazy when
she didn't murmur about it, and gave it back.


_______________________

Diana wrote:


I would suggest that you never, ever tell a dog off for growling, cos a

growl is the dog's only means saying I am not happy, so please back
off. If
she thinks she's not allowed to growl, she might just jump to the next
stage
of biting, but given all that I've said in the past, I would more
likely
expect her to get up and take her chew elsewhere

I have also heard to never correct a dog for growling, that the next
step is biting. In my experience, limited as it may be, I've found
that that simply isn't true. From the dogs I've seen that aren't
corrected for growling, I wonder if they think that since growling is
ok, why not snap and/or bite?

Beth