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high struvites count + alakaline Ph in young dog



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 27th 04, 02:24 AM
culprit
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Default high struvites count + alakaline Ph in young dog


"Spot" wrote in message
...
A lot of people swear by cranberry juice to help with bladder problems.
Maybe you can get him to drink some daily.


be careful with this, most cranberry juice for drinking has a lot of sugar
in it. the sugar pretty much cancels out any benefit you get from the
cranberry.

i think you can get cranberry extract at health food stores, which is
supposed to work better in people than the juice.

i have no idea of its effectiveness in dogs though.

-kelly


  #2  
Old February 27th 04, 02:53 AM
Steve Crane
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"culprit" wrote in message
...

"Spot" wrote in message
...
A lot of people swear by cranberry juice to help with bladder problems.
Maybe you can get him to drink some daily.


be careful with this, most cranberry juice for drinking has a lot of sugar
in it. the sugar pretty much cancels out any benefit you get from the
cranberry.

i think you can get cranberry extract at health food stores, which is
supposed to work better in people than the juice.

i have no idea of its effectiveness in dogs though.

-kelly


Additionally it is impossible to get enough cranberry juice in a dog and
thus lower urine pH. It simply isn't possible. The advantage of cranberry
juice has to do with it unique proven ability in _humans only_ to reduce the
ability of bacteria to attach themselves to the bladder wall. There is no
data which indicates the same action in dogs or cats. Doesn't mean it won't
work, just nobody has done any research to determine if it will. We often
try to make humans out or our dogs and cats and they aren't, what works in
humans may or may not work in dogs and cats.
The majority of struvites in dogs are due to bacterial infection. 14 day run
of antibiotics may not have been long enough, or might not have been an
antibiotic the bacteria was susceptible to.


  #3  
Old February 27th 04, 02:38 PM
Gwen Watson
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diddy wrote:

Or Blueberries? My dogs love blueberries!
Don't Blueberries also have the same properties regarding bacteria as
cranberries?


I am a bit leery to bring this topic up but there are
several dog kibbles that contain blueberries
in their ingredient list. Though I am certain
the quality isn't nearly as good as fresh.

Which is why my dogs get parrot left overs
every day. Veggies and fruit. Unless the
fruit of the day is grapes.

Gwen

  #4  
Old February 27th 04, 06:18 PM
Steve Crane
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But what about cranberry extract capsules?

Or Blueberries? My dogs love blueberries!
Don't Blueberries also have the same properties regarding bacteria as
cranberries?


The same applies to blueberrries as well. The active chemical is quercetin,
a flavonol glycoside, which exists in both blueberries and cranberries as
well as other fruits. Neither of which will alter urine pH at all. The
capsules will not alter urine pH enough to be of any value either. In dogs -
which are not cats or humans - the vast majority of urinary bladder crystals
and stones are the result of bacterial infections. While we can make it more
difficult to "grow" struvites in a dog by creating a diet with low amounts
of phosphates and magnesium which are the major components of struvite
stones, altering the pH is of little to no value in controlling struvite
stones in dogs. This is radically different than the process in cats. We
could move urine pH down to 5.0 in dogs and not change much at all. Moving
urine pH down to 6.2 in cats works miracles, but not in dogs.

While we have several published clinical trials showing a reduction in the
ability of bacterial adherence to the bladder wall in humans, no such
studies exist for dogs or cats. Thus assuming the process works in dogs and
cats like it does in humans is pretty iffy at best.


  #5  
Old February 27th 04, 08:00 PM
Gwen Watson
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Steve Crane wrote:

While we have several published clinical trials showing a reduction in the
ability of bacterial adherence to the bladder wall in humans, no such
studies exist for dogs or cats. Thus assuming the process works in dogs and
cats like it does in humans is pretty iffy at best.


Great post Steve.

I agree. I am just wondering since the science isn't there would
it hurt or could it hurt to give dogs blueberries and or cranberries.
I guess it doesn't really matter as I give my dogs what is left
of my parrots food daily, mixed veggies, Al Dante pasta
and some sort of fruit, which typically is in the berry family.
Occassional apples. When I give them grapes the dogs don't
get any.

Gwen

  #6  
Old February 28th 04, 02:56 AM
callie
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Thanks for your input. I took in another urine specimen and then spoke
to the vet today. The Ph level has fallen from 9 (4 days ago) to 7.
There are still struvites present, but fewer. No evidence of bacteria
whatsoever.
She suggested the conventional approach - taking a sterile urine
sample directly from the bladder (via abdominal wall and bladder
wall), and an x-ray of the bladder to see if stones were present.
Then we spoke about modifying Chester's diet, i.e. acidifying his
urine. Surprise! she did not mention switching to Hill's C/d! She said
it's worth trying cranberry extract and Vit. C, 400 mg daily. She said
a urine Ph of 7 could be considered normal (although 6.5 or neutral is
ideal) but that the presence of struvites is not OK.
I accessed an FDA list of PH of common foods. Some of the vegetables I
have been supplementing his meals with, such as green beans, cabbage,
broccoli, are a little alkaline. So for now I'm dropping the green
veg., adding the cranberry extract, Vit. C., and up to 2 fruit (pears,
apple - slightly acidic) daily. Hopefully he will continue in the
direction of lower urine Ph and less struvites.
By the way, I read about a product made by Solid Gold (good reputation
for dog diet supplements, at least among show dog people) called
"berry balance". Made up of cranberries and blueberries, specifically
to keep urine Ph from becoming too alkaline.
Weiner dog lover
  #7  
Old February 28th 04, 03:11 AM
buglady
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"Steve Crane" wrote in message
news:F%K%b.4174$Pc.1047@okepread02...
The same applies to blueberrries as well. The active chemical is

quercetin,
a flavonol glycoside, which exists in both blueberries and cranberries as
well as other fruits.

.........I don't think so Steve. Quercetin is found in largest amounts in
onions and green tea and is used mostly as an anti-inflammatory. Some
quercetin flavonols were recently found in cranberry, but I doubt that they
are responsible for the effects you're talking about and they are only a
fraction of the 22 flavonoids present.
http://www.vitacost.com/science/hn/Supp/Quercetin.htm
http://www.supplemen****ch.com/supat...pplementId=238

Quercitin is also an excellent antioxidant:
Zheng W, Wang SY.
Oxygen radical absorbing capacity of phenolics in blueberries, cranberries,
chokeberries, and lingonberries.
J Agric Food Chem. 2003 Jan 15;51(2):502-9.
PMID: 12517117 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Cranberry:
http://www.supplemen****ch.com/supat...pplementId=327

Cranberry contains some arbutin, though Bearberry (Uva ursi) leaves have a
lot mo
http://www.supplemen****ch.com/supat...pplementId=324
The active ingredient in bearberry extract is arbutin. Arbutin is split into
glucose (a sugar) and hydroquinone. Hydroquinone combines with glucuronic
acid and this compound is excreted in the urine. If the urine is alkaline
(pH 8), hydroquinone is unbound and released in the urinary tract where it
exhibits a bacteria killing effect.

The compounds in cranberry which prevent adherence of E. coli to the wall of
the bladder are epicatechins, which are proanthrocyanidins:
Foo LY, Lu Y, Howell AB, Vorsa N.
A-Type proanthocyanidin trimers from cranberry that inhibit adherence of
uropathogenic P-fimbriated Escherichia coli.
J Nat Prod. 2000 Sep;63(9):1225-8.
PMID: 11000024 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Foo LY, Lu Y, Howell AB, Vorsa N.
The structure of cranberry proanthocyanidins which inhibit adherence of
uropathogenic P-fimbriated Escherichia coli in vitro.
Phytochemistry. 2000 May;54(2):173-81.
PMID: 10872208 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

.......or you could eat dark chocolate:
http://www.uslink.net/~golden/n-1nov3.html
http://www.nutrition.org/content/vol...tml#SUPPLEMENT

USDA actually has a database for flavonoid content:
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcom...Flav/flav.html

buglady
take out the dog before replying




  #8  
Old February 29th 04, 02:00 AM
Steve Crane
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Default


"buglady" wrote in message ink.net...
"Steve Crane" wrote in message
news:F%K%b.4174$Pc.1047@okepread02...
The same applies to blueberrries as well. The active chemical is

quercetin,
a flavonol glycoside, which exists in both blueberries and cranberries as
well as other fruits.

........I don't think so Steve. Quercetin is found in largest amounts in
onions and green tea and is used mostly as an anti-inflammatory. Some
quercetin flavonols were recently found in cranberry, but I doubt that they
are responsible for the effects you're talking about and they are only a
fraction of the 22 flavonoids present.



Correct, there are dozens of flavanoids etc. Just published in Jan was some work done on the quercetin's contained within cranberries. There are quite a few. While I agreee that the proanthrocyanidins mentioned in your quotes are active, the quercetins group appears to be a bit more active. I doubt anyone is prepared to say that just one flavanoid or another is the active chemical. My intention was to make it relatively simple and focus on one of the more common effective chemicals.

J Agric Food Chem. 2004 Jan 28;52(2):188-95.

Characterization of flavonols in cranberry (Vaccinium macrocarpon) powder.

Vvedenskaya IO, Rosen RT, Guido JE, Russell DJ, Mills KA, Vorsa N.

Department of Plant Biology and Pathology, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, New Jersey 08901, USA.

Flavonoids were extracted from cranberry powder with acetone and ethyl acetate and subsequently fractionated with Sephadex LH-20 column chromatography. The fraction eluted with a 60% methanol solution was composed primarily of phenolic constituents with maximum absorbance at 340 nm. A high-performance liquid chromatography procedure was developed, which resolved 22 distinct peaks with UV/vis and mass spectra corresponding to flavonol glycoside conjugates. Six new constituents not previously reported in cranberry or in cranberry products were determined through NMR spectroscopy to be myricetin-3-beta-xylopyranoside, quercetin-3-beta-glucoside, quercetin-3-alpha-arabinopyranoside, 3'-methoxyquercetin-3-alpha-xylopyranoside, quercetin-3-O-(6' '-p-coumaroyl)-beta-galactoside, and quercetin-3-O-(6' '-benzoyl)-beta-galactoside. Quercetin-3-O-(6' '-p-coumaroyl)-beta-galactoside and quercetin-3-O-(6' '-benzoyl)-beta-galactoside represent a new class of cranberry flavonol compounds with three conjugated components consisting of a flavonol, sugar, and carboxylic acid (benzoic or hydroxycinnamic acids). This is also the first report identifying quercetin-3-arabinoside in both furanose and pyranose forms in cranberry. Elucidation of specific flavonol glycosides in cranberry is significant since the specificity of the sugar moiety may play a role in the bioavailability of the flavonol glycosides in vivo.




  #9  
Old February 29th 04, 02:03 AM
Steve Crane
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"Gwen Watson" wrote in message
...

I agree. I am just wondering since the science isn't there would
it hurt or could it hurt to give dogs blueberries and or cranberries.
I guess it doesn't really matter as I give my dogs what is left
of my parrots food daily, mixed veggies, Al Dante pasta
and some sort of fruit, which typically is in the berry family.
Occassional apples. When I give them grapes the dogs don't
get any.

Gwen


I don't think it hurts anything at all, in fact it is certainly beenficial
to add sources of flavanoids and carotenoids to a dogs diet. I wouldn't get
too concerned about an occasional grape. In all the cases I looked at the
dogs that died from ingesting grapes had eaten very large quantities. In
many cases they had gotten into a 1 pound box of raisins. A couple grapes
isn't any reason to get real excited.

Steve


  #10  
Old February 29th 04, 02:06 AM
Steve Crane
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Default


"callie" wrote in message
om...
Thanks for your input. I took in another urine specimen and then spoke
to the vet today. The Ph level has fallen from 9 (4 days ago) to 7.
There are still struvites present, but fewer. No evidence of bacteria
whatsoever.
She suggested the conventional approach - taking a sterile urine
sample directly from the bladder (via abdominal wall and bladder
wall), and an x-ray of the bladder to see if stones were present.
Then we spoke about modifying Chester's diet, i.e. acidifying his
urine. Surprise! she did not mention switching to Hill's C/d! She said
it's worth trying cranberry extract and Vit. C, 400 mg daily. She said
a urine Ph of 7 could be considered normal (although 6.5 or neutral is
ideal) but that the presence of struvites is not OK.
I accessed an FDA list of PH of common foods. Some of the vegetables I
have been supplementing his meals with, such as green beans, cabbage,
broccoli, are a little alkaline. So for now I'm dropping the green
veg., adding the cranberry extract, Vit. C., and up to 2 fruit (pears,
apple - slightly acidic) daily. Hopefully he will continue in the
direction of lower urine Ph and less struvites.
By the way, I read about a product made by Solid Gold (good reputation
for dog diet supplements, at least among show dog people) called
"berry balance". Made up of cranberries and blueberries, specifically
to keep urine Ph from becoming too alkaline.
Weiner dog lover


Callie,
Actually I'm glad she didn't mention Prescription Diet c/d. It would not
resolve the problem. I would love to see any data she has to support any
alteration of pH using vitamin c etc at any level. I have asked the same
question to Solid Gold and they have no data to support it either. Mrs.
McGill often jumps on human solutions and assumes they will act similarly in
dogs or cats. Unfortunately that isn't always true.


 




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