A dog & canine forum. DogBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » DogBanter forum » Dog forums » Dog breeds
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Breeding debate



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old August 5th 03, 11:53 PM
Routerider
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Breeding debate

I apologize for intruding on your ng but I have a question about dog
breeding from a scientific perspective. I am debating with someone about
the length of time it would take to get every breed of dogs from 25 to 50
muts at the pound? Is this even possible? If I gave you 50 muts...when
could you develop every major breed we have today? Thank you for
responding!


  #2  
Old August 6th 03, 02:02 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

When the ancient war dogs did battle on Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:53:46
-0400, "Routerider" did speak the following bit
of wisdom:

I am debating with someone about
the length of time it would take to get every breed of dogs from 25 to 50
muts at the pound? Is this even possible? If I gave you 50 muts...when
could you develop every major breed we have today?


Well, you *might* be able to recreate some of the newer breeds fairly
quickly. However, please note that many breeds were developed from
other breeds or types of dogs that are now extinct in the world. And
seeing as how a few breeds of dogs have existed -- basically in their
present form -- for THOUSANDS of years, I'd say that you what you ask
would be pretty impossible to accomplish...

*~ *~ *~
Karen C.
Spammers be damned! I can't be emailed from this account! So there...

"You have no power here!
...Be gone! Before somebody drops a house on you too!"
  #3  
Old August 6th 03, 02:23 AM
Christy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Routerider" wrote in message
...
I apologize for intruding on your ng but I have a question about dog
breeding from a scientific perspective. I am debating with someone about
the length of time it would take to get every breed of dogs from 25 to 50
muts at the pound? Is this even possible? If I gave you 50 muts...when
could you develop every major breed we have today? Thank you for
responding!


No, 50 dogs wouldn't be anywhere near sufficient to replicate even just a
few breeds. You may be able to get dogs that resemble some of the more
common breeds in shelters, such as Labs, Huskies, German Shepherds, and pit
bulls. You almost certainly could not get anything resembling a Pharoah
Hound, Chinese Crested, Deerhound, Clumber Spaniel, etc.

Christy


  #4  
Old August 6th 03, 02:45 AM
dianne marie schoenberg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Routerider wrote:
I apologize for intruding on your ng but I have a question about dog
breeding from a scientific perspective. I am debating with someone about
the length of time it would take to get every breed of dogs from 25 to 50
muts at the pound? Is this even possible? If I gave you 50 muts...when
could you develop every major breed we have today?


Given 50 mutts and perhaps 25-30 years, you might--and I do emphasize
*MIGHT* --be able to create a single new breed, which might or might
not resemble any existing breed very much. Note that the resulting
breed would be very inbred as a founding population of 50 is a pretty
small one, although breeds *have* been developed from less.

As far as re-creating every existing breed, forget it. There are many
genes that are rare-to-nonexistent in the general population of dogs,
but are common in a particular breed. Your theoretical founding
population of 50 is going to have a maximum of 100 different alleles
at a given locus (um... "locus" pretty much corresponds to what most
people think of as a "gene"; an "allele" is a particular form of a
gene).

Think about a Dalmatian's spots--maybe not a good example, as that's
an exaggerated form of ticking, which DOES occur in other breeds--
but I'm going to use it anyway :-). If the ticking/spotting allele
doesn't occur in your founding population of dogs, there's really
no chance you're going to get it back--it was probably originally
caused by a mutation, and it's unlikely that a similar mutation will
occur in your population.

JFWIW,

Dianne
  #6  
Old August 6th 03, 06:14 AM
Chuck D
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 04:27:03 -0000, Jim Battista
wrote:

Andrea J Chee wrote in
:

50 mutts between them can't contain all the different genetic
traits that make up the several hundred breeds that exist in the
world. That would be too easy.


It would be kind of cool, though, for some organization with a long-
term view to start with wolves again and domesticate from there towards
a variety of different goals, maybe with the odd bit of gene-tampering
in there to speed things up or to bring in lines that couldn't
otherwise be brought in. I do wonder from time to time what breeds
we're missing out on.

When Soviets were domesticating silver foxes for tameness and handle-
ability, they got to something remarkably tame in, IIRC, less than 30
years. In the process, they also got foxes with white blazes, floppy
ears, and so on.



Although I personally think that rabies shots would work on wolves
most states have laws saying that all wolves will have to be put down
if they break the skin in _any way_ { so the brain can be examined -
or so I'm told }
This would really hamper things -- but having met wolf
breeders I've constantly heard that pure wolves are quite friendly but
are subject to worsening tempers after cross breading with
dogs......you just don't want BIG dogs with poor tempers! LOL!
I know this is done all the time and have met many wolf/dogs
that are sweethearts so don't want to imply that it won't work
......but.....still not to sure it is a good idea
  #7  
Old August 6th 03, 06:22 AM
Q
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Jim Battista" wrote in message
.. .
Andrea J Chee wrote in
:

50 mutts between them can't contain all the different genetic
traits that make up the several hundred breeds that exist in the
world. That would be too easy.


It would be kind of cool, though, for some organization with a long-
term view to start with wolves again and domesticate from there towards
a variety of different goals, maybe with the odd bit of gene-tampering
in there to speed things up or to bring in lines that couldn't
otherwise be brought in. I do wonder from time to time what breeds
we're missing out on.

that *would* be cool


When Soviets were domesticating silver foxes for tameness and handle-
ability, they got to something remarkably tame in, IIRC, less than 30
years. In the process, they also got foxes with white blazes, floppy
ears, and so on.

thanks, I had never heard of that. Do you remember when they did that?


--
Jim Battista
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.



  #8  
Old August 6th 03, 07:26 AM
Jim Battista
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Chuck D wrote in :

This would really hamper things -- but having met wolf
breeders I've constantly heard that pure wolves are quite friendly
but are subject to worsening tempers after cross breading with
dogs......you just don't want BIG dogs with poor tempers! LOL!
I know this is done all the time and have met many wolf/dogs
that are sweethearts so don't want to imply that it won't work
.....but.....still not to sure it is a good idea


I don't mean breeding wolf-dogs.

I mean start with wolves, breed for hundreds to thousands of years, and
see if we can't get new kinds of domestic dog. Canis lupus familiaris
2.0, if you will.

--
Jim Battista
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.
  #9  
Old August 6th 03, 07:32 AM
Jim Battista
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Q" wrote in
:

"Jim Battista" wrote in message
.. .
When Soviets were domesticating silver foxes for tameness and
handle- ability, they got to something remarkably tame in, IIRC,
less than 30 years. In the process, they also got foxes with
white blazes, floppy ears, and so on.

thanks, I had never heard of that. Do you remember when they did
that?


Recently. 60's through 90's or thereabouts. It's featured in one of
the shows about dogs on Discovery/TLC/ScienceChannel/etc.

There's a web page up at http://reactor-core.org/taming-foxes.html --
it looks like it ran from 1959 through at least 1999.

--
Jim Battista
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.
  #10  
Old August 6th 03, 08:28 AM
Chuck D
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 06:26:08 -0000, Jim Battista
wrote:

Chuck D wrote in :

This would really hamper things -- but having met wolf
breeders I've constantly heard that pure wolves are quite friendly
but are subject to worsening tempers after cross breading with
dogs......you just don't want BIG dogs with poor tempers! LOL!
I know this is done all the time and have met many wolf/dogs
that are sweethearts so don't want to imply that it won't work
.....but.....still not to sure it is a good idea


I don't mean breeding wolf-dogs.

I mean start with wolves, breed for hundreds to thousands of years, and
see if we can't get new kinds of domestic dog. Canis lupus familiaris
2.0, if you will.


The concept IS interesting ... I had read about the russian breeding
and thought it sounded very interesting. Maybe we could luck out and
get a dog that would eat lawyers or politicians! )

I guess I stated my point incorrectly.......There_ is_ no legal rabies
vaccine for wolves - as you breed toward any new species you still
have no way to be sure about protection against this problem. Since I
doubt that in reality anyone will try to derive a new species then the
vaccine is most likely a moot point.

In the real world I guess that there is no money to find a vaccine. I
would bet that dog vaccines would work and the reason that they { dog
vaccines} aren't recognized is to keep wolf breeding down. Not too
many folks like the idea.

The comments about wolf dogs were just thrown in as It is a concern of
mine ....having had a wolf/dog cross for 17 years. { the most loving
animal - humans included- I've ever known }

We know wolf breeders and thought seriously about getting a new one
after our girl passed away until we found out about all the prejudice
and problems. I could not stand putting down a member of the family
for a scrape or scratch.

on a humorous note one of the biggest problems with breeding wolves is
that they steal everything and take it to their 'nests'
These nests / dens{ if you let them dig} will end up looking like a
raven or raccoon's den in no time at all....their curiosity seems
unlimited.....everything that is not tied down will be taken!
Everything human related has to be fenced away from them.

Another problem is that wolves probably would not breed toward dogs as
we know them . I'm not too sure but I believe that the other canines
are as different to wolves as great apes are to us. There have been
searches for the DNA path of dogs and in most cases a yellow short
haired dog was the oldest living link not wolves. Long hair { as
wolves have} actually seems to be a clue that the root dna has been
altered as all of the oldest known dog ancestors seem to have had
short hair. I know from living in Alaska that there are lines of wolf
to dog breeds but I doubt that many of the dog type breeds we think
about today are derived from wolves....from other canines
....yes....but besides malamutes and similar breeds most of the root
DNA would probably come from other canine species. I believe that
many of the ancient dog species that we think of today { african
spotted dogs as example } may be older that the wolf { north american
C. lupus at least } . It actually may be that dogs came first and
wolves are only a breed that developed after the major ice ages. I
personally like the romantic notion that dogs evolved from wolves but
the fossil record just might show the opposite. The sad thing for me
is that dogs and cats seem to have the same ancestor according to NY's
Nat. History museum. It looked like a small big headed animal similar
to the Tasmanian tiger.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Breeder Fees: What's Resonable/Ethical? Andrea Dog breeds 11 July 12th 03 08:29 AM
Breeding tips? Angela Thompson Dog breeds 20 July 8th 03 06:58 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.2.0 (Unregistered)
Copyright 2004-2019 DogBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.