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Adopted Dog Behavior Gets Progressively Worse -- Why?



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 18th 05, 02:10 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
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Default Adopted Dog Behavior Gets Progressively Worse -- Why?

"Ken Hall" wrote in message
...
About 10 months ago we adopted this Miniature Schnauzer from the
pound. He began with some behavior problems, but also had a lot of
behavior pluses.
About 4-5 months ago (after we'd had him about 5-6 months) he slowly
began taking up all these behaviors (and some I don't remember at the
moment) one at a time.

He does them ONLY while we are away.


He's settling in and feeling comfortable in your household. This can take
varying amounts of time for dogs coming into a new situation. Some settle
in right from the start. Many start out on their best behavior and then
relax as they settle in. Three months or more is not uncommon for a dog to
start to settle in and show his personality and behaviors.

And he's bored. Your dog is bored and is looking for ways to amuse himself.
This, and an apparent lack of basic obedience training, seems to be the
major problem.

Night before last he pulled
a recently baked pecan pie off the table and ate about half of it.


You *really* cannot let him do this. Schnauzers can be very prone to
pancreatitis. Not only could such a high fat "meal" make him sick, it can
kill him.

Any day I expect him to eliminate the last of the positive traits, and
start digging under the fence.


Could happen. As I say, he's bored.

He still has all of the bad behaviors he began with and all have
become more extreme.


Such as?

He gets fed regularly, groomed frequently, petted a lot by either my
wife or myself. As I said he has the run of the house and yard.


Perhaps he should not have such complete run of the house and yard.
(Actually, there's no "perhaps" to it.) There may come a time and
circumstances where he can handle it but you are not at that point now.
Even if you are home with him, if he has an issue, say, with the kitchen
trash can, then he should not have unsupervised access to it.

When he has access to the yard from 8AM to midnight, is there someone always
home with him? Do you DO anything with him other than feed, groom and pet?
And I'm assuming that the petting does not take place on the furniture or on
your lap - since you considered it a positive trait that he stayed off
furniture? Does he get daily walks? Intellectual stimulation of any sort?
He needs all of these things. And he is trying to provide them for
himself - in ways that you consider unacceptable.

PS Anybody have a suggestion to stop the raiding the trash
containers?


This part is easy. You can get a trash can with a secure lid. Bungee cord
one on if necessary. (Even if my schnauzers did knock over my kitchen trash
can, all they would have is a trash can on its side. If they ever learn to
work as a team and have one dog step on the pedal while the other grabs
stuff out of it then I'll have to come up with another solution). You can
make the trash can inaccessible to him - behind a closed door, set up on the
counter when you can't be right there to supervise. I have done this with
dogs who were otherwise trustworthy in the house but who still insisted on
checking out the contents of the kitchen trash. (Although since your dog
appears to be able to get on the counter - how is that happening? - putting
it on the counter is probably not your solution.)

The rest of the solution starts with never allowing the dog to be loose
alone in the house or the yard. Crates are not inherently cruel. Using one
would have kept your dog from eating something potentially dangerous from
either your counter or your trash. If you don't want to crate, then find a
smaller area of your house where you can contain the dog when you are not
there supervising him. Some people use bathrooms. I have always preferred
baby gates in the kitchen. But this does mean no food or anything else
dangerous (glass shattering on the floor?) on the counter and removing the
trash can each time. Perhaps in your situation, gating him OUT of the
kitchen but still allowing him living room privileges might be more
appropriate. (Depending on what his other bad behaviors are and the
location of the dog door.

I'm guessing that he is left alone for periods of time? How long are they?
Have you taken him to any basic obedience classes? Does he ever socialize
with other dogs or people? I understand people who want their dogs to be
invited up on the furniture but I wonder, why did you get a non-shedding lap
dog if you didn't want him on the furniture?

My miniature schnauzers spend documentable HOURS on our laps and playtime
with us each day. We do not have a dog door but we do have a fenced yard.
The dogs are never left outside in the yard when we are not home and aware
of what they are doing out there. They now have full household freedom when
we are not home - but this was earned by each dog, not an immediate right.
In spite of the fenced yard, they are exercised every day. When we take
them to visit friends or relatives and want them on their very best, quiet
dog behavior, they get at least two 2 mile walks each day. A tired dog is a
good dog. They are *worked* every day. This may mean just several brief
periods of repetitions of "Sit, down, gimme five, stay" or it may mean one
hour agility classes. They play with each other several times a day but
when we had just one schnauzer, we provided those "several" times a day
periods in addition to the play periods they get now in addition.

~~Judy



  #2  
Old December 18th 05, 06:05 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
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Default Adopted Dog Behavior Gets Progressively Worse -- Why?

In article ,
Ken Hall wrote:
He became happier/more content when we gave him run of the
house and much happier still when I put in the doggy door.


Sounds like the dog has done an outstanding job of training
you. I'd say "smart dog!" except that the Law of Unintended
Consequences kicked in and now he's bored and
underexercised, so it hasn't worked out that well even for
him.

You need to manage the situation, you need to get some
structure into the dog's life, and you need to get some
training. First, you need to make sure that stuff you don't
want him to get into is inaccessible. That means covering
the garbage and not having food out where he can reach it.
Second, he needs to have enough exercise so that he's not
going to act out because he's got a bunch of pent-up energy
and because he's bored. Third, you've got to start
enforcing limits, even if he doesn't like it. He'll get
over it, but unfortunately by having given in previously
you've taught him that if his tantrum lasts long enough
you'll let him have his way. But most of all you need to
get the dog to introductory obedience classes. They're fun
for the dog, they're fun for you, and the dog gets the
intellectual stimulation that was mentioned previously (play
is not intellectual stimulation) that he so badly needs. He
also learns that he has to listen to you. It sounds to me
like you've let him turn into a bully.

Susan Butcher was once giving a talk to a bunch of mushers,
and one of them asked "How do you get your dog to go out on
the ice?" She answered "They just do." The reason they
"just do" is that by properly structuring the environment
and not giving the dogs opportunities to screw up, they
choose to do the right thing. Same thing goes for pet dogs.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

1/3 of US GDP growth is based in consumer borrowing
  #3  
Old December 18th 05, 09:35 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
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Default Adopted Dog Behavior Gets Progressively Worse -- Why?

In article ,
Ken Hall wrote:
That sounds like him controlling my behavior rather than me
controlling his.


Exactly. Plus, by failing to manage his environment you've
set him up for failure when you should be setting him up for
success.

And exactly how does one enforce limits on behavior that only happens
when you aren't present?


Cover the trash. Put away the food. Stop expecting the dog
to stop behaving a dog simply because you want him to stop
behaving like a dog.

Give me an example of a tantrum we gave in to.


He threw a tantrum in his crate. You gave in. I've had
dogs that hated to be crated at first but I've never had one
that didn't come to regard the crate as his/her personal
safe space. Teaching the dog that the crate is a good place
is pretty straightforward - feed there, don't close the door
at first, and so on. Throw a treat in the crate
occasionally, let the dog go in after it. Don't just throw
him in the crate, latch the door, and walk away.

So, intellectual stimulation means obedience training. I have taught
him to sit, stay, come, heal, lie down, and to sit in from of his food
bowl until given the OK is given to eat, etc.


So you're done, eh?
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

1/3 of US GDP growth is based in consumer borrowing
  #4  
Old December 18th 05, 11:43 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
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Default Adopted Dog Behavior Gets Progressively Worse -- Why?

In article ,
Ken Hall wrote:
Let see, you agree that me that inconveniencing me and my wife with
new trash containers with covers, and remembering to put everything he
might decide to get into in some inconvenient location out of his
reach, all of which interfere with our life, is in fact him
controlling us.


No, I don't.

You seem to want fairy dust to sprinkle over your dog to
make everything magically copacetic without you changing
anything about how you deal with him. Good luck with that.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

1/3 of US GDP growth is based in consumer borrowing
  #5  
Old December 19th 05, 12:11 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
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Default Adopted Dog Behavior Gets Progressively Worse -- Why?

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:17:24 -0600, Ken Hall
wrote:

Let see, you agree that me that inconveniencing me and my wife with
new trash containers with covers, and remembering to put everything he
might decide to get into in some inconvenient location out of his
reach, all of which interfere with our life,


yes, dogs do, in fact, tend to interfere with one's life. if you
expected your life to continue on without change, then you should not
have taken on the responsibility of caring for a dog.

is in fact him
controlling us. You don't want him to control us (and neither do
we), but you want us to do all these things you agree are him
controlling our behavior. That's all very confusing.


you are making it far too complicated. your dog isn't sitting at home,
dreaming up ways to be the boss of you. management--separating him from
the things he's getting into--is an invaluable tool, and has nothing to
do with your dog controlling your behavior. it has to do with *you*
controlling the dog's environment so that your dog, and your home, are
both kept safe.

I never said I expected him to stop simply because I wanted him too.
You said that not me. The main purpose of me posting was to ask if
there was a way to change his behavior, instead of us changing ours to
accommodate him.


did you want a dog or a robot? you will have to take responsibility for
changing your own behavior, if you want to have any hope of changing
your dog's behavior.

He threw a tantrum in his crate. You gave in.


You obviously aren't reading my replies.


so what would you call it? your dog pitched a fit when you crated him,
so instead of working on the problem, you gave him free access to the
house and yard, which could only make matters worse. and it has. your
dog needs a leader, and you are failing him miserably.

--
shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net || http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com

I am interested in ideas, not merely in visual products.
-- Marcel Duchamp
  #6  
Old December 19th 05, 03:37 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
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Default Adopted Dog Behavior Gets Progressively Worse -- Why?

"Ken Hall" wrote in message
...
Originally he barked at selective dogs, soon he began growling,
barking and lunging violently at any other dog in sight. Shortly
after that he began doing the same thing to any people in sight. All
this happened within the first month, but got progressively more
intense/violent over the first 2-3 months.


And what are you doing to gain control over this behavior except NOT walking
him? Since you clearly don't know what to do, you need to find someone to
help you work with your dog.. Someone who is right there. Clearly if he
acts like this, he's not going to be welcome in an obedience class. But you
desperately need some one on one lessons.

You say 'he's not to the point he can handle it,' but
when we first gave him these freedom and for months afterward he was
not exhibiting the problem behavior I'm writing about. It didn't
begin until several months after the door was put in, and he'd had the
run of the house for a month or two before that.


And I also explained to you that dogs "settle in" after a period of time.
The honeymoon period is clearly over. For some dogs, it's a couple of days.
For others, it can take months for them to feel completely safe to act up.
And it is very clear that he cannot handle the freedom in a way that is
acceptable to you. So tighten up the rules.

My dogs like to shred newspaper. They don't touch it if it's on the coffee
table but if it's left on the couch, they consider it fair game. I don't
try to understand it or even to correct such a thing. I just leave the
paper on the table. Or, when I get home, I laugh at my own forgetfulness
when I get home.

Do you DO anything with him other than feed, groom and pet?


Occasionally we take him to a nearby park. Other than that, no.

And I'm assuming that the petting does not take place on the furniture or

on
your lap - since you considered it a positive trait that he stayed off
furniture?


Correct!


I'm still amazed. Why did you get a non-shedding lap dog if you weren't
going to allow him on the furniture and in your lap? Why did you get a dog
at all if you ignore him and his needs most of the time, even when you're
right there?

Does he get daily walks?


No. We gave up. See aggressive behavior above.

Intellectual stimulation of any sort?


Such as?


Training, teaching new behaviors. The dog likely wants to interact with
you. My dogs don't play much with toys but we still have been able to find
games that they do like to play. One likes to attack me as I make the bed
in the morning. Not a game I'd play with a German Shepherd but with a
miniature schnauzer it makes for a few minutes of pretend fighting. We play
a stomping feet game - it's very noisy. One likes to hook a finger in his
teeth and play tug. Yes, going on walks. And I mean every day the weather
isn't completely unbearable in your area. The dog may not have played games
in his previous home but there are ways you can interact with him and you
need to find them.

So, your solution it to block the behavior rather than correct it.
Though very inconvenient for us this should work for the trash.


No. My solution is to make the behavior impossible for the dog to carry
out. There is nothing inconvenient about the trash cans in my house. They
have pedals and heavy lids but they certainly aren't difficult to use. They
have lasted for years, remained attractive and have such a tight sealing lid
that odors do not escape into my house. And it keeps my dog safe. It's
entirely possible that now that they are both well past puppyhood that I
could use open trash containers and they would never touch them. But just
in case the "dog" in them finds it impossible to ignore the smell of the
chicken bones or the bacon fat that is in the trash, I choose to protect
them. It is not an inconvenience.

When I had a two year old child in my house, I worked to teach her NOT to
put things into outlets. But I also put baby blocking plugs into unused
outlets. I put dangerous materials up out of her reach. And I had
child-proof latches on cabinets that had any hint of something in it that
could hurt her. Yeah, I guess it was inconvenient - a little. But my
primary concern was keeping her safe. I was blocking her behavior that
could put her in harm's way when I blinked for a minute and might have
missed an opportunity to stop or correct it. When you in any way allow your
dog to dump your trash containers and eat food that he should not or to pull
glass dishes off the counter and break them, you are not keeping him as safe
as you can. If that's inconvenient, then why do you have a dog?

You know, it appears to me that you really did not know what you were
getting when you adopted a 6 year old miniature schnauzer. You got an
intelligent dog with a history of bad behavior. Then you have left him
bored and left to amuse himself much of the time. (Even when you *are*
there, you are not paying any attention to the dog.) If you had no interest
in doing anything with the dog other than patting his head while he sits at
your feet, you really got the wrong breed. Miniature schnauzers were bred
to be ratters (so don't be surprised when he *does* dig under your fence)
but they were also bred to come into the house and become a member of the
family. You're not doing that.

The dog can be "saved". He can be taught proper behavior around other dogs
and he can kept off the counters and out of the trash (although at his age,
you *are* going to have to do as much adjustment to make it work as he is).
You need to get him into an obedience program (probably one on one at
first). Teaching him basic commands does not mean that you have the
knowledge to train him to be the kind of dog you want. (And as a miniature
schnauzer person, I'm not sure what you're after is a miniature schnauzer.
As a breed, they are not the dog you describe in his original "good
traits".) You need to commit to making him a true member of your family
(and not just a decoration on the rug by the TV).

Can you keep him off the furniture? Yeah, possibly you can - even at his
age when he may have been allowed in his previous home. But I just can't
imagine why you think that's a good thing to do.

The answer to your subject question is the dog's behavior is getting
progressively worse because you are allowing it to happen. You are not
willing to make the changes in your household to accomodate a dog and his
training. If he lived in my household, he would not be allowed to reach
the counters or to dump the trash can. Not the first day and never again.
He would not have access to those areas unless I was physically close enough
to stop him in his tracks.

You are not willing to search for personal help with behavior issues
(aggression) that you clearly have no idea how to manage yourself. You
insist that it's the dog who must change to accomodate you. We're telling
you that he does not see a reason to do that. You're unhappy but he's
self-rewarding himself with food off the counter. And he is bored out of
his mind. And he's aggressive to other dogs - which may be a very dangerous
thing for him when he digs that tunnel out of your yard. But he's a dog and
he doesn't know that. It's your job to keep him safe.

~~Judy


  #7  
Old December 19th 05, 04:09 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
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Default Adopted Dog Behavior Gets Progressively Worse -- Why?

Ken Hall said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

Let see, you agree that me that inconveniencing me and my
wife with new trash containers with covers, and remembering
to put everything he might decide to get into in some
inconvenient location out of his reach, all of which
interfere with our life, is in fact him controlling us.


Responsible ownership of a dog often requires some inconvenience
and time.

You don't want him to control us (and neither do we), but
you want us to do all these things you agree are him
controlling our behavior. That's all very confusing.


You're getting some great advice in this thread and I'm not sure
why you don't recognise it. I could repeat that advice in
different words and in a style that would make you think that
you came up with the idea to begin with, but I won't.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
  #8  
Old December 19th 05, 05:42 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
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Default Adopted Dog Behavior Gets Progressively Worse -- Why?

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 14:07:33 -0600, Ken Hall
wrote:

On 18 Dec 2005 12:05:48 -0500, (Melinda Shore) wrote:

Sounds like the dog has done an outstanding job of training
you. I'd say "smart dog!" except that the Law of Unintended
Consequences kicked in and now he's bored and
underexercised, so it hasn't worked out that well even for
him.

You need to manage the situation, you need to get some
structure into the dog's life, and you need to get some
training. First, you need to make sure that stuff you don't
want him to get into is inaccessible. That means covering
the garbage and not having food out where he can reach it.


That sounds like him controlling my behavior rather than me
controlling his.


All of the behaviors that you are seeing in him are reinforcing to the
dog. He gets good stuff out of the trash, for example. Every time he
gets into the trash and gets something good out of it, that behavior
has been positively reinforced and will be that much harder to get rid
of. You can work on training him not to do things like that by
setting up situations where he thinks you can't see him but you can,
for example, but that is not going to work if he only gets caught one
percent of the time and the other 99, he gets into the trash and gets
rewarded for it. So you have to manage the situation and make sure he
doesn't get any more payoffs for it immediately no matter what your
long term approach is to the situation. Many people choose to manage
the situation long term rather than try to train a dog who has
discovered the joys of trash already to stay away when he knows no one
is there to be bothered by it and therefore bother him about it. I
love my stainless steel trash can with the push pedal top because it
keeps the odors contained as well as keeping the dogs out, so I am not
going to spend a lot of time and effort worrying about training when
the trash can serves to keep the dogs out of the trash and more. If
you really want to train the dog instead of managing the situation,
more power to you, but if the behavior is bugging you this much, you
will probably find management a lot more peaceful and less stressful.
In any event, if the reason that you don't like management is that it
appears to you to be giving in to losing some kind of power struggle,
you are setting yourself up for miserable times over the life of the
dog no matter how the trash and furniture situation works out. If I
was worried about whether my dog was controlling my actions or I was
controlling my dog's, I'd be a daily wreck. When I just concentrate
on how best to solve the problem with minimal hassle to myself and
with a good relationship with the dog preserved (and I've found that
good relationship means they know what I expect of them and how to
make me happy, so it's not that I am some idiot who lets my dog do
what it wants in the name of making the dog happy), having dogs is a
great experience even when there are bumps along the road. By the
way, different dogs in my house have access to different levels of
freedom when I am gone based on what they can be trusted with and one
of them is crated while I am gone even though he thinks he should be
running with the big dogs all around the house all day. He was smart
enough to bark when crated, stop when it didn't pay off and we were
gone and start up again when he heard someone was home (we left a
window open while working outside and could track the little monster's
stops and starts depending on the comings and goings through the
door). You'd swear he had been barking nonstop if you didn't know
better.

--
Paula
Persons with names like Sierra, Sequoia, Auburn, and Rainbow can't sing the Blues no matter how many men they shoot in Memphis.
  #9  
Old December 19th 05, 02:16 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
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Default Adopted Dog Behavior Gets Progressively Worse -- Why?

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 10:30:51 -0600, Ken Hall
, clicked their heels and said:

A few days after we got him with no warning he attacked the neighbors
dachshund. I didn't see this myself. While my wife was walking him,
in a very friendly way walked up to the other dog. When he got within
reach he suddenly grabbed the other dog around the neck with his jaws.


And what did your wife DO?

Originally he barked at selective dogs, soon he began growling,
barking and lunging violently at any other dog in sight. Shortly
after that he began doing the same thing to any people in sight. All
this happened within the first month, but got progressively more
intense/violent over the first 2-3 months.


And again, what did you DO about it?

Does he get daily walks?


No. We gave up. See aggressive behavior above.


So he's a recluse now, and bored. Not a good thing for a dog.
Training and continued socialization is necessary

Intellectual stimulation of any sort?


Such as?
He isn't the least bit interested in play. We've tried various toys
and interactive games -- he does not respond.


Training. All sorts of fun things can be done in training.

So, your solution it to block the behavior rather than correct it.
Though very inconvenient for us this should work for the trash.


He's a DOG Leave open trash and available food, both incredibly
self-rewarding to the dog, and you'll have it continue. How hard is
it for you to lift a lid and put food in the cabinet or fridge?

But, it won't help with getting on furniture, dragging our clothing
around, chewing up my wife's sewing supplies and tearing into bags of
any sort.


When is he doing this? When you aren't home? CONFINE him or confine
the stuff (shut doors, use hampers, normal stuff like that).

Since it happens when we are away we've never seen him do it but we
think he's climbing up on a window seat or on kitchen table chairs.


Push the chairs in and booby trap the window seat. Or confine the
dog.


--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...bedience/album
  #10  
Old December 19th 05, 02:18 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
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Default Adopted Dog Behavior Gets Progressively Worse -- Why?

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 14:07:33 -0600, Ken Hall
, clicked their heels and said:


So, intellectual stimulation means obedience training. I have taught
him to sit, stay, come, heal, lie down, and to sit in from of his food
bowl until given the OK is given to eat, etc. Most of which he does
reliably. 'Come' fails occasionally/rarely when he's caught up in
something exciting like chasing a squirrel.


but according to your other post, he would not be responsive to ANY of
these things when on a walk, since you gave up on walking him due to
his behavior. Obedience in the face of distraction is what it's all
about - if you haven't trained for that, you haven't trained for real
life or life outside your home.

--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...bedience/album
 




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