We just got an 18-month-old female Black Lab 3 weeks ago. I believe she
was an outdoor dog before - she was born, bred and trained to be a
bird-hunter, but didn't "pan out" as a hunter. We're having a couple
problems that I'd appreciate it if anyone has any pointers, or if we
just have to be patient and wait them out.

1) Housebreaking. She knows going potty in the house is a no-no. She
had an accident Monday night and she went slinking past really quick
with her tail between her legs, and when I looked around the corner she
had peed on the carpet. But yet she doesn't let us know when she needs
to go outside. Since she was trained for bird hunting, I believe she
was trained to NOT bark. So intead of having her "speak" to go outside,
we have attached a jingle bell to the door and have been shaking the
bell each time we say "wanna go outside?" and let her out. A couple
times she has gone over and nudged the bell herself - I don't know if
she actually had to go, or was just curious, but we praised the heck
outta her and let her out when she did it. But she still doesn't do it
all the time.

2) Destructiveness/separation anxiety. We bought a LifeStages kennel
cage for her, which we are keeping her in during the day while we are
at work. Since we got her on a Wednesday night, we didn't have the
luxury of introducing the kennel slowly, and had to put her in it the
very next day. I came home at lunchtime and everything was fine. When
my husband got home at 5, she had completely shredded the dog bed that
was in the kennel with her. When we had to leave her in the kennel to
go out for ~3 hours for Xmas dinner, she started tearing into the
carpet pads we put in there for cushion. Yesterday when I got home at
lunchtime, she had torn up most of the newspaper I'd put in the front
half of the kennel. She also dumped her water and food bowls, so I did
go get "coop cups" last night that attached to the kennel, so hopefully
she won't be able to do that anymore.

Obviously we don't want to have to kennel her every day, forever.
Eventually we would like to be able to leave her in the house alone all
day and not worry about her eating our furniture or shredding every
pillow and throw rug in sight, or having accidents in the house. I'm
just not sure how to go about "testing" her and gaining that trust in
her. How do we remedy the destructiveness while we're gone and can't
supervise her?

This is so hard, as we just lost our 10-year-old Lab mix in November,
who we could trust implicitly. She never destroyed anything, she didn't
have accidents, even if she was left for 12 hours on occasion. I just
don't know how to get up to that level with this one, especially since
she's 1-1/2 years old already and has habits she's developed for the
past 18 months before she came to us.

Any suggestions, ideas, etc.?

"AJDupree" said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

1) Housebreaking. She knows going potty in the house is a
no-no.

How do you know this?

She had an accident Monday night and she went
slinking past really quick with her tail between her legs,
and when I looked around the corner she had peed on the
carpet.

IMO, she hasn't yet learned that she's not supposed to go inside
(BTW, have you had her checked for a UTI?). She slinks because
she probably associates peeing with your displeasure.

But yet she doesn't let us know when she needs to
go outside. Since she was trained for bird hunting, I
believe she was trained to NOT bark.

Every dog signals the need to go out differently. Personally, I
find it easier to learn my dogs' cues than to teach them the
same cue. None of mine have ever barked to ask to go out.

So intead of having
her "speak" to go outside, we have attached a jingle bell
to the door and have been shaking the bell each time we say
"wanna go outside?" and let her out. A couple times she has
gone over and nudged the bell herself - I don't know if she
actually had to go, or was just curious, but we praised the
heck outta her and let her out when she did it. But she
still doesn't do it all the time.

It sounds like you're on a good start with the bell, but do you
accompany her out so that you can praise her the instant she
goes?

I think that you should go back to puppy training techniques and
put her on a pee schedule - take her outside when you think she
needs to go and praise her when she does (put it on cue since
you're already there with her).

2) Destructiveness/separation anxiety.

[snip]

How much exercise does she get before you leave for the day?
Often, "SA" is really unfocused excess energy.

This is so hard, as we just lost our 10-year-old Lab mix in
November, who we could trust implicitly. She never
destroyed anything, she didn't have accidents, even if she
was left for 12 hours on occasion.

It's tough to lose such a dog, but you're doing a diservice to
your new pup by comparing her to your past dog. It takes time
and patience for any new dog to fit into a household, and an
adolescent lab may take a little more time and patience.

Have you looked at obedience classes?

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

on 2006-01-04 at 08:23 wrote:

1) Housebreaking.

first, make an appointment with the vet to rule out a physical
problem. she could have a UTI or something else that needs
attention.

once you've ruled out a medical cause, you can start house
training from square one, as if she were a baby puppy. while
she has better bladder control than a puppy, due to her age,
do not assume that she has any notion what to do with it.

1. regular feedings and regular, frequent outings. take her
outside after meals and when you remove her from her crate.

2. praise her like crazy when she potties outside

3. watch her like a hawk indoors. tether her to you, so that
she cannot sneak off an have an accident. when you can't
directly supervise her, place her in her crate. when you
uncrate her, you take her directly outside. do whatever you
can to make sure she does not have an opportunity to have an
accident. every accident she has will undermine the successes
she has.

4. do not correct her for having accidents. it's unlikely
that she will connect the correction with the accident, which
makes it worthless, at best. worst case scenario, she will
associate the correction with pottying, and will become
reluctant to potty in front of you. you want to do everything
you can to make her *want* to come to you and request your
attention when she has to go.

my experience has been that simply ignoring accidents is the
best policy.

also, don't assume that she will know or understand the
concept of telling you that she has to go out. you can
encourage her to do so, but some dogs never really grasp the
concept. the good news is that once she's housebroken and on
a schedule, it won't be a big deal if she never "gets it."
she'll be able to anticipate potty breaks and will be able to
hold it until she's let out. i lost my 11 year old dog last
summer, and i don't think he *ever* asked to go outside once
in his life. he never had an accident, either.

2) Destructiveness/separation anxiety.

this is unlikely to be related to separation anxiety. Labs
are mouthy and like to chew. you can give her something like
a Kong to chew on while you are not home. that will hopefully
keep her occupied for awhile.

i would also remove *all* bedding. she doesn't really need
it, and if she's destroying it, she could start eating
portions of it and develop a blockage. i think it's better to
just get rid of it for the time being. you may be able to
reintroduce it later, after she's settled in and has grown up
a bit. Eighteen months is still quite young for a
Lab--they can be slow to mature.

She also dumped her water and food bowls, so I did go get
"coop cups" last night that attached to the kennel, so
hopefully she won't be able to do that anymore.

you can get her a water bottle (like a giant hamster bottle).
i would not put food in her crate with her. i'm a fan of
fixed meals (2-3x/day for a dog her size and age). feeding
her set amounts at set times will get her digestive tract on a
schedule, which will help with house training. it will get
her used to eating her food when it's given to her, which can
be an invaluable tool in spotting when she's become ill (a
lack of appetite is sometimes the only clue you have that a
dog is sick). it will allow you to closely monitor how much
food she's eating, which will allow you to keep her weight
under control (Labs are super easy keepers, so keeping them at
a fit weight can be tricky).

I'm just not sure how to go about "testing" her and gaining
that trust in her. How do we remedy the destructiveness while
we're gone and can't supervise her?

you're going to need patience. start small and gradually work
up to giving her more and more freedom. first, she needs to
settle in and get comfortable in her crate. that may take
awhile. i'd probably give it a few months, because it can
take some time before the "honeymoon" period is over and a dog
begins to feel comfortable in a new home. at that point,
evaluate how she acts when you leave and return home. is she
anxious? or is she pretty complacent about the whole thing?
if she acts anxious, then it's time to consider having her
evaluated for separation anxiety.

if she's not anxious, then she might be ready for the next
step. you can start testing her by letting her have a small
bit of unsupervised freedom in a dog-proofed room, for a short
period of time (e.g. go out to the car and come back in).
still behaving herself and appearing secure? then next time,
take a walk to the mailbox or have a brief chat with a
neighbor. you can keep building up the length of the
absences, depending on the dog's behavior and demeanor.

something to keep in mind throughout this process is that you
want to make departures and arrivals as ho-hum and boring as
possible. i know it's nice to have a big, happy meet-n-greet
when you get home from work, but it can undermine a dog's
confidence level, especially if the dog is prone to
anxiousness. boring is best.

This is so hard, as we just lost our 10-year-old Lab mix in
November, who we could trust implicitly. She never destroyed
anything, she didn't have accidents, even if she was left for
12 hours on occasion.

i'm so sorry! it's hard enough to lose a long-time companion.
trying to grapple with unexpected behavior issues can't be
easy.

for what it's worth, your girl sounds like she's behaving
perfectly normally for a dog in her situation. she should
housebreak pretty easily, once you've got her on a schedule
and are watching her carefully. the destructiveness, too,
should pass. until it does, management (crating, taking away
bedding, and gradually increasing freedoms when she's older)
will keep her safe and you sane. other than that, patience
and consistency are your friends.

good luck!

--
shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net
http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com/

Thanks both of you. To answer some of your questions:

1) My previous dog barked at the door when she wanted to go out. I
guess it's just however one trains them. But since this dog was
trained to NOT bark (shock collar training for bird hunting), we have
decided to try this bell method instead.

2) We do let her outside first thing when she wakes up, after she
eats, and right after we let her out of her crate. We do go out with
her most times and praise her lots when she potties. When we DON'T go
out with her, we watch her thru an open window that looks out on our
backyard and still praise her when she potties.

3) She's fed 2x a day, in the morning when we get up and after we eat
dinner in the evening. I got 2 coop cups because sometimes she doesn't
eat her morning meal before I have to leave, so in the event she hasn't
eaten her breakfast yet I'll put it in the kennel with her. Otherwise,
I'd just leave her with water.

4) I do put toys in her kennel with her to try to occupy her time
while we're gone. But we've discovered that she doesn't really know
what toys are - once again probably due to her previous bird hunting
lifestyle. When she was first given a rawhide roll, she didn't even
know what to do with it. Now she LOVES her rawhides, although I won't
leave those in her kennel with her unattended. So I leave a Kong with
treats/kibbles inside it, a stuffed squeaky cow and a couple treats
scattered on the floor of the kennel. So far she seems to totally
ignore all the toys while she's in her kennel. Other than dumping her
food/water bowls previously, and tearing up papers or carpet pads, she
doesn't seem to touch the toys left with her.

5) I leave the radio or TV on for her for some background noise. I
also raise the shades so she can see outdoors and watch birds or
squirrels if she wants to. So far we've been on a 12-day marathon of
days with no sunshine at all, so her getting overheated by the sun
isn't an issue right now. Besides, her crate is not by a window that
will get direct sun during the morning and afternoon hours.

6) Obedience classes - yes I'm looking into them. There's a beginning
class offered thru our township that starts in 2 weeks. I've also
contacted a place that will come to your home and do personalized
training with you - I haven't heard back from them since I sent them my
inquiry yesterday. She does know "Sit" and she heels really well as
long as she has her choke chain collar on - if she has her regular
nylon collar on she pulls. But I definitely am going to take her to
SOME type of training, whether it's personal or in a group setting.

7) Exercise. She doesn't get much. I get up at 6:15 and have to leave
an hour later so most of my morning time is spent just showering and
getting ready for work. My husband leaves even earlier. I do come home
at lunchtime and let her out of the kennel to go outside and stay as
long as I can - about 15 minutes - so she can run around the yard and
stuff. Then in the evenings we'll play with her and stuff. Since it
gets dark so darn early right now I don't take her for walks in the
evening, but I do on the weekends during the day. As the days get
longer I plan to walk her after we get home from work.

8) I know we can't compare her to our "perfect" 10-year companion, and
I try not to. I realize she's on a learning curve right now, just like
we are. I guess it would almost be easier if we had gotten her as a
puppy as then you can kind of "mold" them to the way you want them.
Since she's 18 months already, we have no idea what she did before or
anything. That's what most frustrating I think.

9) I do make no big deal about leaving or coming home. When I get
there at lunchtime she's just sitting there calmly looking at me. I
don't know how my husband reacts when HE gets home, though, since he
gets home after work before I do. I'll have to check with him and make
sure he's not making a huge to-do about it.

10) I have pretty much ignored accidents - just let her outside and
clean them up. The only time I reprimanded her was when I actually
caught her in the act of peeing. Then I told her "No!" and I think she
stopped mid-stream; I let her outside, cleaned up what she'd done, and
ignored it when she came back in the house. Should I ignore it even if
I catch her WHILE she is peeing inside?

On 4 Jan 2006 08:23:08 -0800, "AJDupree" ,
clicked their heels and said:


2) Destructiveness/separation anxiety. We bought a LifeStages kennel
cage for her, which we are keeping her in during the day while we are
at work. Since we got her on a Wednesday night, we didn't have the
luxury of introducing the kennel slowly, and had to put her in it the
very next day. I came home at lunchtime and everything was fine. When
my husband got home at 5, she had completely shredded the dog bed that
was in the kennel with her.

that's because it was there and entertaining. She doesn't need
bedding - leave it out.

When we had to leave her in the kennel to
go out for ~3 hours for Xmas dinner, she started tearing into the
carpet pads we put in there for cushion. Yesterday when I got home at
lunchtime, she had torn up most of the newspaper I'd put in the front
half of the kennel.

Same as above - don't leave things she can destroy in there.

She also dumped her water and food bowls, so I did
go get "coop cups" last night that attached to the kennel, so hopefully
she won't be able to do that anymore.

Why are you leaving her food in her crate? A SMALL bit of water is
ok, but a large amount just means she'll need to pee, and it's really
a better idea to feed on a schedule, with you providing and expecting
her to eat when it's provided - twice a day.

--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...bedience/album

Janet,

Thanks for your reply. I never had to crate my previous dog at all, so
this is all new to me.

So I should just leave her in there with no padding or newspaper at
all? I thought at least newspaper, so if she DOES have to go while
she's in there, it would soak into the paper instead of just sitting
and spreading out on the plastic tray. If she pees on the plastic tray
directly, the pee could go anywhere and make clean-up more intensive
and possibly SHE could get the pee on her, too, while laying down. So
far she has not gone potty in the crate, but one never knows!

I don't normally leave food in the crate with her. As stated in my
other reply above, we feed her in the morning when we first get up, and
again after we eat dinner at night. The vet suggested we feed her 2x a
day instead of just once, at least for now. Normally she DOES eat her
food in the morning before I have to leave. So those 9x out of 10 that
she does eat, all she has in the crate is water and some treats in her
Kong (which she ignores anyway). But on that 1 occasion that she
doesn't eat, we have put her food in the crate with her. Otherwise she
seems famished at her nighttime meal.

I also read that in order to get the dog more used to the crate, that
you should put their food and water bowls in there so they have to eat
in it also. That way they don't only view the crate as "the place I go
when they leave me", etc. Or should that only be when we're home and
no food at all when she's not supervised?

On 5 Jan 2006 07:09:15 -0800, "AJDupree" ,
clicked their heels and said:

So I should just leave her in there with no padding or newspaper at
all?

Right.

I thought at least newspaper, so if she DOES have to go while
she's in there, it would soak into the paper instead of just sitting
and spreading out on the plastic tray. If she pees on the plastic tray
directly, the pee could go anywhere and make clean-up more intensive
and possibly SHE could get the pee on her, too, while laying down. So
far she has not gone potty in the crate, but one never knows!

I forget things so quickly - she's 18 months? She's not going to pee
in there. getting pee on her isn't the end of the world, should it
happen. Put a plastic tablecloth under her crate if you're worried
abou the possibility.

I don't normally leave food in the crate with her. As stated in my
other reply above, we feed her in the morning when we first get up, and
again after we eat dinner at night. The vet suggested we feed her 2x a
day instead of just once, at least for now. Normally she DOES eat her
food in the morning before I have to leave. So those 9x out of 10 that
she does eat, all she has in the crate is water and some treats in her
Kong (which she ignores anyway). But on that 1 occasion that she
doesn't eat, we have put her food in the crate with her. Otherwise she
seems famished at her nighttime meal.

She'll learn to eat it all every time if you don't leave it and she's
famished. She will not starve.

I also read that in order to get the dog more used to the crate, that
you should put their food and water bowls in there so they have to eat
in it also.

That's fine, if you feed when you are there. Open crate or closed (my
foster puppy eats in his crate because I have to feed 4 other pets and
can't supervise). Leaving food is never a good idea, and water just
winds up making a mess most of the time.

That way they don't only view the crate as "the place I go
when they leave me", etc. Or should that only be when we're home and
no food at all when she's not supervised?

correct. I food reward for the crate every time. Something small (I
use "pupcorn" these days). It's truly amazing how powerful a little
nugget can be - puppies fly to their crates.


--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfr...bedience/album

On 4 Jan 2006 10:39:21 -0800, "AJDupree" wrote:

1) My previous dog barked at the door when she wanted to go out. I
guess it's just however one trains them. But since this dog was
trained to NOT bark (shock collar training for bird hunting), we have
decided to try this bell method instead.

i find bell ringing to be useless. barking is only marginally better. i
begin by carefully watching the dog (which i'm already doing as part of
house training) and figuring out what the dog's signals are. then, i
can work on having the dog come to me when she needs to go outside. i
find that *much* more reliable than ringing a bell. even in my tiny
house, i'm not always near the door, so i'm unlikely to reliably hear a
bell being rung. i also could wait until Hell froze before my dog
learned to bark. she's just not a noise maker. her "gotta go" signals
are obvious, though, so i can't imagine ever misunderstanding her
meaning or not noticing that she has to go out.

2) We do let her outside first thing when she wakes up, after she
eats, and right after we let her out of her crate. We do go out with
her most times and praise her lots when she potties. When we DON'T go
out with her, we watch her thru an open window that looks out on our
backyard and still praise her when she potties.

if you aren't with her, the praise is not going to be connected to the
act. you really need to go out with her every single time, at least
until she's reliably trained.

3) She's fed 2x a day, in the morning when we get up and after we eat
dinner in the evening. I got 2 coop cups because sometimes she doesn't
eat her morning meal before I have to leave, so in the event she hasn't
eaten her breakfast yet I'll put it in the kennel with her. Otherwise,
I'd just leave her with water.

give her 5-10 minutes to eat, then pick up her food. that's plenty of
time for her to get all the food she needs. leaving the food down all
day is unnecessary.

you can still feed her in her crate, which i agree is a good idea (after
6 years, i still feed my dog in her crate). just don't leave the food
in there all day. whatever she doesn't finish in 5-10 minutes should be
taken away. i guarantee you that she'll quickly get the idea that she
needs to eat when and what she's fed. i cannot tell you how thankful i
am that my dog has learned this lesson, especially when i travel with
her.

if you really feel she needs it, you can give her water in her crate,
but i'd recommend doing so in a large "hamster" bottle. keep in mind
that the more she drinks during the day, the more she will need to pee.
my Boxer does not usually drink much water during the day, as she
self-regulates. she waits until i come home.

Other than dumping her
food/water bowls previously, and tearing up papers or carpet pads, she
doesn't seem to touch the toys left with her.

for now, i'd leave her with a stuffed Kong, then, and leave it at that.

5) I leave the radio or TV on for her for some background noise. I
also raise the shades so she can see outdoors and watch birds or
squirrels if she wants to. So far we've been on a 12-day marathon of
days with no sunshine at all, so her getting overheated by the sun
isn't an issue right now. Besides, her crate is not by a window that
will get direct sun during the morning and afternoon hours.

i've never left the radio or tv on for pets. many people do, though,
and find that it's helpful. for my dog, the television/radio would be
stressful. since she has suffered from separation anxiety in the past,
i don't want to add to that stress.

harriet likes to watch the squirrels, bunnies, and birds outside, so she
enjoys having a window to look out. mostly, though, when i'm at work,
she sleeps. she's learned that when i leave, it's time to head back to
bed for the day.

But I definitely am going to take her to
SOME type of training, whether it's personal or in a group setting.

good. this will be beneficial to her, and to you.

7) Exercise. She doesn't get much. I get up at 6:15 and have to leave
an hour later so most of my morning time is spent just showering and
getting ready for work. My husband leaves even earlier. I do come home
at lunchtime and let her out of the kennel to go outside and stay as
long as I can - about 15 minutes - so she can run around the yard and
stuff. Then in the evenings we'll play with her and stuff. Since it
gets dark so darn early right now I don't take her for walks in the
evening, but I do on the weekends during the day. As the days get
longer I plan to walk her after we get home from work.

fifteen minutes per day is not nearly enough exercise. she's a young,
active dog, so she needs a good bit of both mental and physical
stimulation in order to stay healthy. if you can find a way to provide
more stimulation, she will be more likely to settle down and be less
likely to be destructive while you are not at home. i can understand
that you are strapped for time, but this really isn't a negotiable
issue. is there a dog walking service in your area? what about a
neighbor kid who might be willing to walk her after school? if nothing
else, you can walk her in the dark. i've done it, morning and night,
and it can actually be kind of nice. i found that there were fewer
dogs/people out then, and as long as i stuck to well lit streets, i
never felt like it was particularly dangerous. very few people will
approach someone walking a large, black dog.

I guess it would almost be easier if we had gotten her as a
puppy as then you can kind of "mold" them to the way you want them.
Since she's 18 months already, we have no idea what she did before or
anything. That's what most frustrating I think.

actually, if you'd gotten her as a puppy, you would likely be dealing
with a dog with little bladder control, puppy mouthing (ouch!), crazy
chewing on just about everything, and who had little or no training. an
adolescent dog is, in my opinion, the best of all possible worlds. much
of the hard work has been done, and the dog is mentally and physically
mature enough to deal with owners who work.

9) I do make no big deal about leaving or coming home. When I get
there at lunchtime she's just sitting there calmly looking at me.

good! that indicates that what you're dealing with is likely a bored,
underexercised dog, not a dog with separation anxiety.

Should I ignore it even if I catch her WHILE she is peeing inside?

nope. i would do just as you described, except i would make sure that
my "no" was emphatic enough to get her attention but not so much that
she's startled or frightened. it can be a fine line between
communicating that she's acting inappropriately and making her reluctant
to eliminate in front of you.

--
shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net || http://cat-sidh.blogspot.com

Color is the place where our brain and the universe meet.
-- Paul Klee

"AJDupree" wrote in message
oups.com...


2) Destructiveness/separation anxiety. We bought a LifeStages
kennel
cage for her, which we are keeping her in during the day while we
are
at work. Since we got her on a Wednesday night, we didn't have the
luxury of introducing the kennel slowly, and had to put her in it
the
very next day. I came home at lunchtime and everything was fine.
When
my husband got home at 5, she had completely shredded the dog bed
that
was in the kennel with her. When we had to leave her in the kennel
to
go out for ~3 hours for Xmas dinner, she started tearing into the
carpet pads we put in there for cushion. Yesterday when I got home
at
lunchtime, she had torn up most of the newspaper I'd put in the
front
half of the kennel. She also dumped her water and food bowls, so I
did
go get "coop cups" last night that attached to the kennel, so
hopefully
she won't be able to do that anymore.

Obviously we don't want to have to kennel her every day, forever.
Eventually we would like to be able to leave her in the house alone
all
day and not worry about her eating our furniture or shredding every
pillow and throw rug in sight, or having accidents in the house. I'm
just not sure how to go about "testing" her and gaining that trust
in
her. How do we remedy the destructiveness while we're gone and can't
supervise her?


It could be a reaction to being left in a crate if she is not used to
it Chewing relieves anxiety and boredom.
Why not leave her in the kitchen or lounge and leave for a short time
, say half an hour and see how she gets on? Leave her a filled kong
or chew in a card board box
to keep her occupied , she can chew the box too.

If you feel she is anxious at being left you can make a Comfort zone
for her.
By Gill White.
*Comfort Zone is a place the dog would choose at home to rest/sleep
in, not a place the owner gives access to or chooses. So, if for
example a dog had access to anywhere in the home - what you need to
know is were would she keep going to rest/sleep. It maybe on sofa, on
your bed, under a table etc. This is her comfort zone and now needs
enhancing by feeding in it, making sure water is available at it and
spending time in it yourself with your dog"

If you can create this zone, when you leave your dog she can go there
and feel safe and secure and has pleasant associations . You can put
her toys in there and something that smells of you like an article an
article of clothing.*
Alison