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  #1  
Old January 25th 06, 05:26 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
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Default AFS

Anyone have any comments in regard to "Animal Food Service" of Green
Bay?
http://www.animalfood.com/

We have a Shih Tzu who is a very finicky eater. She's had one bout of
pancreatitis due to too much 'people food' and we don't want that to
happen again. We have not been able to get her to eat dog food alone -
when we try she will go days without eating and start throwing up bile.
Trying to find something that she will be happy eating that is at least
not unhealthy for her.
  #2  
Old January 25th 06, 01:45 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
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Default AFS


"Dave L" wrote in message
...
Anyone have any comments in regard to "Animal Food Service" of Green
Bay?
http://www.animalfood.com/


You might take a look at this page: http://www.dogaware.com/dogfeeding.html

.........For some reason or other AFS doesn't have a good reputation with raw
feeders and I couldn't really remember the reason. So I decided to take a
look at their products

.........OK, for one thing they're adding calcium carbonate (source of
calcium) to all of these foods. Why? The purpose of the ground bone is to
supply calcium. Why are they adding Vit D and Vit A? This should be in the
basic components of the food - mostly from liver.

"Majestic Raw" All Beef
5# Rolls & Pet Patties (for Dogs)
Beef, Beef Vital Organ Meats, Beef Tripe, Beef Liver, Finely Ground Bone,
zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, calcium carbonate, copper sulfate, ferrous
sulfate, sodium selenite, calcium iodate, cobalt sulfate, choline chloride,
vitamin E (dl-alpha tocopherol acetate), niacin, calcium pantothenate,
ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, thiamine
mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid, pyridoxine
hydrochloride, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex.

"Real Beef Nibblets"
Beef vital organ meats (including Tripe), Beef Muscle Meat, Finely Ground
Meaty Bones, Organic Kelp, seaweed extract, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate,
calcium carbonate, copper sulfate, ferrous sulfate, sodium selenite, calcium
iodate, cobalt sulfate, choline chloride, vitamin E (dl-alpha tocopherol
acetate), niacin, calcium pantothenate, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement,
vitamin B12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin D
supplement, folic acid, pyridoxine hydrochloride, biotin, menadione sodium
bisulfite complex.

.........Beef vital organ meats? What does that mean exactly? The first
thing on the list ought to be muscle meat (which includes heart). Kidneys
ought to be fed only once every 10 days or comprise only 10% of the diet.
Same with liver. I like to know what exactly is in the food. If they'd
tell me I wouldn't feel nearly so cynical about this food.

"Meat Eater" Diet 5# Rolls
& Pet Patties (for Dogs)
Beef by-products (select organ meats only), beef muscle meat, liver, finely
ground bone, less than 9% cereal food fines (for binding, moisture
absorption and fiber), dried kelp, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, calcium
carbonate, copper sulfate, ferrous sulfate, sodium selenite, calcium iodate,
cobalt sulfate, choline chloride, vitamin E (dl-alpha tocopherol acetate),
niacin, calcium pantothenate, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, vitamin
B12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement,
folic acid, pyridoxine hydrochloride, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite
complex.

*The term "by-products" has somehow acquired an undeserved negative
connotation in some circles. However, though AFS is required to use the term
by-products on all labeling, only the very nutrition-rich organ meats found
between the shoulders and the first stomach are included in product
manufacturing. (The official AAFCO definition, however, reads: The non
rendered clean parts, other than meat, derived from slaughtered mammals.
This includes, but is not limited to, lungs, spleen, kidneys, brain, livers,
blood, bone, partially de-fatted low temperature fatty tissue, stomachs and
intestines freed of their contents. It DOES NOT include hair, horns, teeth
and hooves.)*

.........A lot of fancy footwork and they still haven't told you exactly
what's in there. The byproducts shouldn't include liver as they list it
separately. Lung is a low value food and how much spleen/pancreas does a
dog need? This one also has cereal fines, so if you're trying to avoid
grains, this isn't the food you want.

**Product ingredients are procured from a USDA certified meat processing
plant in Northeastern Wisconsin

..........OK, but does that mean they're certified for human use or is it the
stuff going out the back door which was rejected and not certified? Granted
they're not using ground up dead pets, but how is their source different
than many commercial kibbles where charcoal is added to meat not fit for
human consumption?

...........They brag that you don't need to add vitamins or supplements to
their food. Well I guess not as they've included what amounts to a vitamin
pill in all their foods! I feed raw. I don't add calcium or any other
minerals. I do add a daily egg, yogurt, some kinds of seaweed, Vit E, omega
3's, and some supplements tailored to the animal to the morning meal of
meat. Evening meal is meaty bones.

We have a Shih Tzu who is a very finicky eater. She's had one bout of
pancreatitis due to too much 'people food' and we don't want that to
happen again. We have not been able to get her to eat dog food alone -
when we try she will go days without eating and start throwing up bile.


...................what are you currently feeding? Did the vet give you any
pills for your dog like Pancreatin or other digestive enzymes? I think your
dog either doesn't like the food or he feels unwell after every time he eats
or you're obsessing about the food because you're nervous about another
pancreatic attack. Personally I'd give a digestive enzyme (if you have no
supplements from the vet) and see if that makes a difference. You might try
an occasional egg or sardines on top of the food. Add some defatted chicken
broth to the food. You also might consider getting the dog off grains and
see if that makes a difference. I'd check out some of the other foods
listed at dogaware.com. Or join the K9Nutrition list at Yahoo.

best of luck
buglady
take out the dog before replying


  #3  
Old January 26th 06, 05:42 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
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Posts: n/a
Default AFS

buglady wrote:


You might take a look at this page: http://www.dogaware.com/dogfeeding.html


Bookmarked..

"Dave L" wrote:

We have a Shih Tzu who is a very finicky eater. She's had one bout of
pancreatitis due to too much 'people food' and we don't want that to
happen again. We have not been able to get her to eat dog food alone -
when we try she will go days without eating and start throwing up bile.




..................what are you currently feeding?


We were feeding boiled chicken and liver, with the occasional pork. (Not
together, as separate meals)

Since her pancreatitis, we have been feeding mostly boiled chicken, with
the occasional meal of liver. Sometimes rice with the chicken. Mysti
will not eat beef -other than the liver- or lamb. I have had *some*
success adding in some Iams kibble soaked in the water that was used for
cooking, but she won't touch the kibble until she finishes the other.
She is fed twice a day, each serving about 3 - 4 oz. (she's about 15
lbs.)

Mysti has always been a slow starter - we have to hand feed and coax her
to take the first few pieces. When/if we get her started, she normally
will eagerly finish the rest on her plate.


Did the vet give you any
pills for your dog like Pancreatin or other digestive enzymes? I think your


No. Sounds like something to ask the vet about.

dog either doesn't like the food or he feels unwell after every time he eats


Wish I could find something she liked.

or you're obsessing about the food because you're nervous about another
pancreatic attack. Personally I'd give a digestive enzyme (if you have no
supplements from the vet) and see if that makes a difference.


OTC?

You might try
an occasional egg or sardines on top of the food.


The vet gave us some fish oil a while back that smelled like sardines.
Said to put some on her food - that no dog could resist it. Mysti could


Or join the K9Nutrition list at Yahoo.


Sounds like a plan.


best of luck
buglady


Thanks
  #4  
Old January 26th 06, 12:32 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
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Posts: n/a
Default AFS

"DaveL" wrote in message
...
..................what are you currently feeding?


We were feeding boiled chicken and liver, with the occasional pork. (Not
together, as separate meals)

Since her pancreatitis, we have been feeding mostly boiled chicken, with
the occasional meal of liver. Sometimes rice with the chicken. Mysti
will not eat beef -other than the liver- or lamb. I have had *some*
success adding in some Iams kibble soaked in the water that was used for
cooking, but she won't touch the kibble until she finishes the other.


...........How much meat are you adding to the kibble? If it's a large
amount you need to balance the phosphorus in the meat with calcium. If the
dog is getting kibble she doesn't need rice with it, there's plenty of grain
in the kibble. If your dog is eating mostly meat/rice and no kibble you
need to forumlate a real diet that includes calcium. Sounds like your dog
is getting picky because she likes the other food better than the kibble.
If you add stuff she really likes to the food, it has to be small enough she
can't pick it out. Have you thought about preparing the food yourself and
just skipping the kibble? Or going to canned food?

Mysti has always been a slow starter - we have to hand feed and coax her
to take the first few pieces. When/if we get her started, she normally
will eagerly finish the rest on her plate.


........She's trained you well! Does she really eat absolutely NO food for 2
days if you don't do it her way? If she's eating something, but not a lot,
she's not starving. Put the food down, walk away, and leave her alone with
it for 20 minutes. Then come back and pick up the remainder with no
reaction on your part. Don't fuss. I'd do this 3X a day if that's a
schedule you can keep to - otherwise 2X a day is fine.. If she's eating
something for each of those meals, just keep on and see if she changes her
attitude after a week. She's most likely anxious every time she faces the
food bowl because meal time is always anxious time for you!

Did the vet give you any
pills for your dog like Pancreatin or other digestive enzymes? I think

your

No. Sounds like something to ask the vet about.


.........Well, with just one attack of pancreatitis, they probably wouldn't.
Your dog probably had an acute attack. With chronic pancreatitis the plan
is frequent small low fat meals and some digestive help. What did your dog
eat just before the pancreatitis? Was it a really fatty meal?

Personally I'd give a digestive enzyme (if you have no
supplements from the vet) and see if that makes a difference.


OTC?


.........Yeah, OTC is fine. Human pills though are set for about 150 lbs of
people, so for a dog that small I think about looking for a dog digestive
enzyme that has been scaled down to her size.

buglady
take out the dog before replying



  #5  
Old January 27th 06, 05:14 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
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Posts: n/a
Default AFS

buglady wrote:

"DaveL" wrote in message
...
..................what are you currently feeding?


We were feeding boiled chicken and liver, with the occasional pork. (Not
together, as separate meals)

Since her pancreatitis, we have been feeding mostly boiled chicken, with
the occasional meal of liver. Sometimes rice with the chicken. Mysti
will not eat beef -other than the liver- or lamb. I have had *some*
success adding in some Iams kibble soaked in the water that was used for
cooking, but she won't touch the kibble until she finishes the other.


..........How much meat are you adding to the kibble? If it's a large


Mostly meat, just 6 -8 pieces of kibble that she *may* each after the
meat.

If you add stuff she really likes to the food,


We haven't found anything she 'really likes' - that's the crux of the
problem. If we could find something, we could perhaps build a better
balanced diet around it. But what she seems to 'really like' one day
she won't touch the next.

Or going to canned food?


We've thrown away along of almost full cans of canned food. We have not
found anything she will eat. She won't touch either of the prescription
diet foods the vet sent home with us.

Mysti has always been a slow starter - we have to hand feed and coax her
to take the first few pieces. When/if we get her started, she normally
will eagerly finish the rest on her plate.


.......She's trained you well!


She sure has!!

Does she really eat absolutely NO food for 2
days if you don't do it her way?


2 days, 3 days, I think a couple of times when we were trying real hard
she went for 4 days. Usually she will vomit after not eating for a
couple days. Then my wife breaks down and cooks her up some of her
'people food'.

If she's eating something, but not a lot,
she's not starving.


She's 15 pounds - high end of the normal weight for a Shih Tzu. She's
not starving by any means.

Put the food down, walk away, and leave her alone with
it for 20 minutes. Then come back and pick up the remainder with no
reaction on your part. Don't fuss. I'd do this 3X a day if that's a
schedule you can keep to - otherwise 2X a day is fine.. If she's eating
something for each of those meals, just keep on and see if she changes her
attitude after a week.


This is basically what we try to do.

She's most likely anxious every time she faces the
food bowl because meal time is always anxious time for you!


I think she just knows she has us trained and if she holds out long
enough she'll get it her way


What did your dog
eat just before the pancreatitis? Was it a really fatty meal?


She had liver for dinner about 6 pm. At about 2 in the morning (New
Years day) she started throwing up. All the dinner came out. Then she
started vomiting bright red blood - so off to the emergency vet she
went.

Personally I'd give a digestive enzyme (if you have no
supplements from the vet) and see if that makes a difference.


OTC?


........Yeah, OTC is fine.


I was looking for a brand name suggestion..
  #6  
Old January 27th 06, 01:50 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default AFS

"DaveL" wrote in message
...
buglady wrote:
..........How much meat are you adding to the kibble? If it's a large


Mostly meat, just 6 -8 pieces of kibble that she *may* each after the
meat.


...........You really need to investigate recipes as your dog isn't getting
everything she needs from chicken and rice. Not enough B vitamins for one
thing, if you're not adding eggs or a B-complex vitamin.

She won't touch either of the prescription
diet foods the vet sent home with us.


........Oh well, if it's canned Hill's i/d I've never found a dog that will
eat it as it's as dry as toast.

She's most likely anxious every time she faces the
food bowl because meal time is always anxious time for you!


I think she just knows she has us trained and if she holds out long
enough she'll get it her way


..........She's won! Have you tried leaving the room or putting her in her
own room while she contemplates the food bowl? Do you eat your meal first,
then feed her? Or is she sitting there watching you eat waiting for her
share of your dinner? I'd change your dinner time routine. I'd eat my meal
first, with the dog in another room, then let her out, put her food bowl on
the floor and go watch TV for 1/2 hour. Come back, pick up the bowl, then
go out and do something fun with her like a walk. It's important to do it
all as if it were a normal occurrence. She might be a little confused at
first when *her* script isn't being followed, but if you're both confident
and positive she'll realize she's not the director any more. It might even
be a relief to her.

What did your dog
eat just before the pancreatitis? Was it a really fatty meal?


She had liver for dinner about 6 pm. At about 2 in the morning (New
Years day) she started throwing up. All the dinner came out. Then she
started vomiting bright red blood - so off to the emergency vet she
went.


.........A whole liver meal is usually too much for any dog. I didn't know
dogs would vomit blood with pancreatitis, never heard that. If it wasn't
much blood, could have been broken blood vessels from the force of the
vomiting. I'm assuming they did a complete blood panel on this dog at the
emergency vet? Do her stools look normal?

I was looking for a brand name suggestion..


........I use NOW for one dog who used to show pancreatic symptoms for a few
hours when she got too much fat in her food. My dog is around 55 pounds and
she gets 1/3 of a pill. She also doesn't get as much fat as the other dogs.
You can check out the pet supplements at B-Naturals which might be more
appropriate for a dog of her size. She also has articles on her website.
Here's one about pancreatitis: http://b-naturals.com/Jul2004.php

buglady
take out the dog before replying


 




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