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#1
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Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament
Hi, all. My dog, Sam, is having his first major problem. He's a 6-6.5
year old Shiba Inu mix. About two weeks ago, he started limping. His right rear leg seemed to be giving him a problem. I took him to his vet, who did a physical exam and took x-rays. From that, he said that Sam has arthritis in that leg and may have a torn ligament and recommended two approaches: 1. Exploratory surgery to find out. 2. Conservative approach of reduced activity (no running, playing, etc.) and several, short on-leash walks per day. Rimadyl when needed for pain. Then surgery if no improvement. I've opted for option 2 for a few weeks to see if there's any improvement. Vet said if it improves, it's probably not a torn ligament and surgery would not be necessary. I'm also thinking of a 2nd opinion. Something about this doesn't add up to me. Can't put my finger on it, just intuition. Other than the occasional limping/favoring of one leg, Sam does not act as if anything is wrong: he still jumps up and down on/off furniture, he stands on his hind legs to look out the window for several minutes at a time, he has not had any changes in behavior/mood, he's still frisky and curious about everything, he lets me gently massage the leg without pulling back and seems to enjoy it. I have done some web research on both arthritis and torn ligament repair. I definitely want the best care for Sam, but exploratory surgery for a torn ligament after a diagnosis of arthritis seems odd. Does this sound right to you? Any thoughts or other suggestions? Many thanks on behalf of Sam. Dusty |
#2
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Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament
"Dusty" wrote in message ups.com... I took him to his vet, who did a physical exam and took x-rays. From that, he said that Sam has arthritis in that leg and may have a torn ligament and recommended two approaches: I'm also thinking of a 2nd opinion. Something about this doesn't add up to me. Can't put my finger on it, just intuition. ...............Opening a dog up to *explore* is a very last option for me. I think I'd seek out that second opinion. It does sound odd, but I suppose if that leg had a chronic problem that wasn't really noticeable until now, you could get arthritis in that joint and still have a torn ligament. The main thing to find out is if there will be any kind of permanent damage from waiting if it is a torn ligament. ...........I'm assuming this dog had a full blood panel run also? There's lots of other things that can cause limping and if the vet couldn't find anything but arthritis he may be missing the boat. buglady take out the dog before replying |
#3
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Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament
Buglady,
Thank you for your reply. It helped clarify things for me. The recommendation for a full blood panel is great. The vet did not do one. I don't think Sam has ever had one and he'll definitely get one before any surgery. Here's where I'm not understanding the vet's recommendation for exploratory surgery: 1. Sam was diagnosed with arthritis in the right, rear knee. So, if he has arthritis in that knee joint, I fail to see how he'll improve in a month. Since arthritis doesn't improve. So don't know how "failure to improve in a month" would lead to a diagnosis of ligament damage. 2. If there is also ligament damage and from what I've found in researching it, the vet could most likely tell this from a physical exam. Sam did receive a thorough exam of the leg and range-of-motion movement before the x-ray. To the point where he was uncomfortable. The vet said there was some stiffness and then said an x-ray would tell us more. The vet said nothing after the physical exam of any ligament damage. Only after the x-ray. 3. I do not understand how ligament damage can be determined by x-ray. I thought that tissue did not show up on an x-ray, only bone. 4. "Exploratory surgery" bothers me. Not surgery to repair. Just "exploratory". While I want the best for Sam (including exploratory surgery that seems questionable), I really feel on a fence about the need to do exploratory surgery. Sam has always been a house dog and always on leash. I'm the one who walks and plays with him and cannot recall any time when he seemed to be injured or acted in pain. The limp wasn't sudden. It developed slowly over a couple of weeks. And, once he's been walking around for a minute or so, it seems fine. For the time being, I'll go with conservative management, pain pills when needed (none needed since Sunday), and a second opinion after 4-6 weeks if there is no improvement. Then, if needed, I'll ask about exploratory vs. repair. I'd be happy to hear what others think, too. Many thanks for your time and help. Dusty buglady wrote: "Dusty" wrote in message ups.com... ..............Opening a dog up to *explore* is a very last option for me. I think I'd seek out that second opinion. It does sound odd, but I suppose if that leg had a chronic problem that wasn't really noticeable until now, you could get arthritis in that joint and still have a torn ligament. The main thing to find out is if there will be any kind of permanent damage from waiting if it is a torn ligament. ..........I'm assuming this dog had a full blood panel run also? There's lots of other things that can cause limping and if the vet couldn't find anything but arthritis he may be missing the boat. buglady take out the dog before replying |
#4
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Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament
Dusty,
First, I'm really sorry you're in such a situation. I can truly relate. We have two dogs. The first, had tremendous problems all of a sudden with walking, jumping, even going potty. We couldn't figure it out. We took him to vets that went to UC Davis (known as one of the top vet schools in the country). The diagnosis - Discospondylosis. This was said to be an uncurable "virus". Well, it is great to have medical science provide diagnosis but it isn't always right. This incurable illness was treated by us. How? Nutrition. Not dog food per say. My personal opinion is that pets and humans are malnurished to a large degree due to additives and - believe it or not - fractionated and isolated vitamins and minerals. So, we learned about Whole Food Nutrition. We started feeding our dog raw meat along with whole food meal and whole food supplements. We even obtained a product called "Dog Inflammation Care" from www.dogcare-doghealth.com as well as other products to deal with his problems. He fully recovered and has been fine ever since. It doesn't end there. Our second dog was adopted without us knowing that she had seizures. This is a big red flag since it can mean some serious problems besides epilepsy. It is possible, according to the vets, that she had menge or another disease. She was finally diagnosed as epileptic. Again, we attacked food and provided her as much nutrition as possible. Within a short period of time - no more seizuers. My diagnosis - malnurished. I would say attack food first no matter what. If you are providing your dogs with poor quality food (anything that has been heavily processed or doesn't include raw food) than you should reexamine the situation. Second, whole food nutritional supplements can do wonders. Again, www.dogcare-doghealth.com has information about nutrition, illnesses, as well as whole food products. There's amazing information about dog food on there. Finally, sometimes surgery is required - just like with us. But, give healing a chance by making sure there is a means for healing to take place. Drugs will not heal. The body is designed to consume food to heal not drugs. Drugs have side effects (just watch some tv commercials from drug companies - they are hysterical) because they are chemical compounds. Foods do not have these kind of effects. There is whole food nutrition that is packed very densely with healing foods in unique combinations. Be patient, love you dog, and good luck, Kevin Dusty wrote: Buglady, Thank you for your reply. It helped clarify things for me. The recommendation for a full blood panel is great. The vet did not do one. I don't think Sam has ever had one and he'll definitely get one before any surgery. Here's where I'm not understanding the vet's recommendation for exploratory surgery: 1. Sam was diagnosed with arthritis in the right, rear knee. So, if he has arthritis in that knee joint, I fail to see how he'll improve in a month. Since arthritis doesn't improve. So don't know how "failure to improve in a month" would lead to a diagnosis of ligament damage. 2. If there is also ligament damage and from what I've found in researching it, the vet could most likely tell this from a physical exam. Sam did receive a thorough exam of the leg and range-of-motion movement before the x-ray. To the point where he was uncomfortable. The vet said there was some stiffness and then said an x-ray would tell us more. The vet said nothing after the physical exam of any ligament damage. Only after the x-ray. 3. I do not understand how ligament damage can be determined by x-ray. I thought that tissue did not show up on an x-ray, only bone. 4. "Exploratory surgery" bothers me. Not surgery to repair. Just "exploratory". While I want the best for Sam (including exploratory surgery that seems questionable), I really feel on a fence about the need to do exploratory surgery. Sam has always been a house dog and always on leash. I'm the one who walks and plays with him and cannot recall any time when he seemed to be injured or acted in pain. The limp wasn't sudden. It developed slowly over a couple of weeks. And, once he's been walking around for a minute or so, it seems fine. For the time being, I'll go with conservative management, pain pills when needed (none needed since Sunday), and a second opinion after 4-6 weeks if there is no improvement. Then, if needed, I'll ask about exploratory vs. repair. I'd be happy to hear what others think, too. Many thanks for your time and help. Dusty buglady wrote: "Dusty" wrote in message ups.com... ..............Opening a dog up to *explore* is a very last option for me. I think I'd seek out that second opinion. It does sound odd, but I suppose if that leg had a chronic problem that wasn't really noticeable until now, you could get arthritis in that joint and still have a torn ligament. The main thing to find out is if there will be any kind of permanent damage from waiting if it is a torn ligament. ..........I'm assuming this dog had a full blood panel run also? There's lots of other things that can cause limping and if the vet couldn't find anything but arthritis he may be missing the boat. buglady take out the dog before replying |
#5
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Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament
"Dusty" wrote in message: Thank you for your reply. It helped clarify things for me. The recommendation for a full blood panel is great. The vet did not do one. I don't think Sam has ever had one and he'll definitely get one before any surgery. I'd definitely agree with this one as well. Both my dogs have turned up Lyme positive at one time or the other, and lameness is one of the major symptoms. If it does turn out that he has ligament damage, you would want to consult a specialist to get the surgical repair done. 1. Sam was diagnosed with arthritis in the right, rear knee. So, if he has arthritis in that knee joint, I fail to see how he'll improve in a month. Since arthritis doesn't improve. So don't know how "failure to improve in a month" would lead to a diagnosis of ligament damage. I really think that you need to take your concerns to the vet. How he responds will tell you how badly you need that second opinion, or whether you need to find a new vet. If Sam has arthritis, he may benefit from a joint supplement to alleviate the discomfort. Pan (diagnosed with Canine Hip Dysplasia and juvenile arthritis at age 1) has been on K-9 Liquid Health 5000, and I know that it has substantially improved her mobility and quality of life. Suja |
#6
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Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament
"dogcare-doghealth" said in
rec.pets.dogs.health: We started feeding our dog raw meat along with whole food meal and whole food supplements. We even obtained a product called "Dog Inflammation Care" from www.dogcare-doghealth.com as well as other products to deal with his problems. He fully recovered and has been fine ever since. So, if the OP's dog has Lyme disease yet follows your "prescription", are you willing to bear the financial and moral burden? Are you a veterinarian? It doesn't end there. Our second dog was adopted without us knowing that she had seizures. This is a big red flag since it can mean some serious problems besides epilepsy. Yup. It is possible, according to the vets, that she had menge or another disease. I didn't know that mange can trigger seizures, at least directly. Can you provide further information? She was finally diagnosed as epileptic. What form of epilepsy? Did you identify the trigger? Again, we attacked food and provided her as much nutrition as possible. Within a short period of time - no more seizuers. My diagnosis - malnurished. Perhaps. I'd like to know more. -- --Matt. Rocky's a Dog. |
#7
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Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament
"dogcare-doghealth" wrote in
oups.com: Well, it is great to have medical science provide diagnosis but it isn't always right. This incurable illness was treated by us. How? Nutrition. Not dog food per say. My personal opinion is that pets and humans are malnurished to a large degree due to additives and - believe it or not - fractionated and isolated vitamins and minerals. So, we learned about Whole Food Nutrition. We started feeding our dog raw meat along with whole food meal and whole food supplements. We even obtained a product called "Dog Inflammation Care" from www.dogcare-doghealth.com as well as other products to deal with his problems. He fully recovered and has been fine ever since. *Looks at screen name of poster.* *Looks where they got the product.* *Is very skeptical* -- Marcel and Moogli http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/ |
#8
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Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament
"Dusty" wrote in message
oups.com... 3. I do not understand how ligament damage can be determined by x-ray. I thought that tissue did not show up on an x-ray, only bone. ........I don't either. Try Googling radiograph ligament damage or diagnosing ligament damage and see what you come up with. I'd also Google up some fixits for ligament damage and see what's involved. I'd also suggest posting in alt.med.veterinary if you haven't already. And quiz your vet about this issue. Since ligaments connect muscle to bone, perhaps he/she saw an area where the ligament attaches that looked irregular. I don't think I'd ever consent to this kind of exploratory surgery unless a bone doc suggested it after looking at X-rays. For the time being, I'll go with conservative management, pain pills when needed (none needed since Sunday), .........what kind of pain pills? If he prescribed Rimadyl, he should have done liver/kidney bloodwork first. For any kind of surgery bloodwork is recommended anyway, so I'd get some done. buglady take out the dog before replying |
#9
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Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament
"buglady" wrote in
.net: "Dusty" wrote in message oups.com... 3. I do not understand how ligament damage can be determined by x-ray. I thought that tissue did not show up on an x-ray, only bone. .......I don't either. Try Googling radiograph ligament damage or diagnosing ligament damage and see what you come up with. I'd also Google up some fixits for ligament damage and see what's involved. I'd also suggest posting in alt.med.veterinary if you haven't already. And quiz your vet about this issue. Since ligaments connect muscle to bone, perhaps he/she saw an area where the ligament attaches that looked irregular. I don't think I'd ever consent to this kind of exploratory surgery unless a bone doc suggested it after looking at X-rays. Wild-assed-guess below. Perhaps it was the lack of damage to the bone(s)/joints, combined with the results from the range of motione test the Vet did that led him to say ligament damage. -- Marcel and Moogli http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/ |
#10
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Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament
"Suja" wrote in message news:SH38g.51049$k%3.12749@dukeread12... Pan (diagnosed with Canine Hip Dysplasia and juvenile arthritis at age 1) has been on K-9 Liquid Health 5000, and I know that it has substantially improved her mobility and quality of life. Finn was on that for his last couple of years. That stuff was amazing! Tara |
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