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Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 9th 06, 03:46 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
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Default Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament

Hi, all. My dog, Sam, is having his first major problem. He's a 6-6.5
year old Shiba Inu mix.

About two weeks ago, he started limping. His right rear leg seemed to
be giving him a problem.

I took him to his vet, who did a physical exam and took x-rays. From
that, he said that Sam has arthritis in that leg and may have a torn
ligament and recommended two approaches:

1. Exploratory surgery to find out.

2. Conservative approach of reduced activity (no running, playing,
etc.) and several, short on-leash walks per day. Rimadyl when needed
for pain. Then surgery if no improvement.

I've opted for option 2 for a few weeks to see if there's any
improvement. Vet said if it improves, it's probably not a torn
ligament and surgery would not be necessary.

I'm also thinking of a 2nd opinion. Something about this doesn't add
up to me. Can't put my finger on it, just intuition.

Other than the occasional limping/favoring of one leg, Sam does not act
as if anything is wrong: he still jumps up and down on/off furniture,
he stands on his hind legs to look out the window for several minutes
at a time, he has not had any changes in behavior/mood, he's still
frisky and curious about everything, he lets me gently massage the leg
without pulling back and seems to enjoy it.

I have done some web research on both arthritis and torn ligament
repair.

I definitely want the best care for Sam, but exploratory surgery for a
torn ligament after a diagnosis of arthritis seems odd. Does this
sound right to you? Any thoughts or other suggestions?

Many thanks on behalf of Sam.

Dusty

  #2  
Old May 9th 06, 10:56 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
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Default Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament


"Dusty" wrote in message
ups.com...
I took him to his vet, who did a physical exam and took x-rays. From
that, he said that Sam has arthritis in that leg and may have a torn
ligament and recommended two approaches:
I'm also thinking of a 2nd opinion. Something about this doesn't add
up to me. Can't put my finger on it, just intuition.


...............Opening a dog up to *explore* is a very last option for me. I
think I'd seek out that second opinion. It does sound odd, but I suppose if
that leg had a chronic problem that wasn't really noticeable until now, you
could get arthritis in that joint and still have a torn ligament. The main
thing to find out is if there will be any kind of permanent damage from
waiting if it is a torn ligament.

...........I'm assuming this dog had a full blood panel run also? There's
lots of other things that can cause limping and if the vet couldn't find
anything but arthritis he may be missing the boat.

buglady
take out the dog before replying


  #3  
Old May 9th 06, 04:30 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
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Default Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament

Buglady,

Thank you for your reply. It helped clarify things for me. The
recommendation for a full blood panel is great. The vet did not do
one. I don't think Sam has ever had one and he'll definitely get one
before any surgery.

Here's where I'm not understanding the vet's recommendation for
exploratory surgery:

1. Sam was diagnosed with arthritis in the right, rear knee. So, if
he has arthritis in that knee joint, I fail to see how he'll improve in
a month. Since arthritis doesn't improve. So don't know how "failure
to improve in a month" would lead to a diagnosis of ligament damage.

2. If there is also ligament damage and from what I've found in
researching it, the vet could most likely tell this from a physical
exam. Sam did receive a thorough exam of the leg and range-of-motion
movement before the x-ray. To the point where he was uncomfortable.
The vet said there was some stiffness and then said an x-ray would tell
us more. The vet said nothing after the physical exam of any ligament
damage. Only after the x-ray.

3. I do not understand how ligament damage can be determined by x-ray.
I thought that tissue did not show up on an x-ray, only bone.

4. "Exploratory surgery" bothers me. Not surgery to repair. Just
"exploratory".

While I want the best for Sam (including exploratory surgery that seems
questionable), I really feel on a fence about the need to do
exploratory surgery. Sam has always been a house dog and always on
leash. I'm the one who walks and plays with him and cannot recall any
time when he seemed to be injured or acted in pain. The limp wasn't
sudden. It developed slowly over a couple of weeks. And, once he's
been walking around for a minute or so, it seems fine.

For the time being, I'll go with conservative management, pain pills
when needed (none needed since Sunday), and a second opinion after 4-6
weeks if there is no improvement. Then, if needed, I'll ask about
exploratory vs. repair.

I'd be happy to hear what others think, too. Many thanks for your time
and help.

Dusty


buglady wrote:
"Dusty" wrote in message
ups.com...

..............Opening a dog up to *explore* is a very last option for me. I
think I'd seek out that second opinion. It does sound odd, but I suppose if
that leg had a chronic problem that wasn't really noticeable until now, you
could get arthritis in that joint and still have a torn ligament. The main
thing to find out is if there will be any kind of permanent damage from
waiting if it is a torn ligament.

..........I'm assuming this dog had a full blood panel run also? There's
lots of other things that can cause limping and if the vet couldn't find
anything but arthritis he may be missing the boat.

buglady
take out the dog before replying


  #4  
Old May 9th 06, 05:31 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament

Dusty,

First, I'm really sorry you're in such a situation. I can truly relate.
We have two dogs. The first, had tremendous problems all of a sudden
with walking, jumping, even going potty. We couldn't figure it out. We
took him to vets that went to UC Davis (known as one of the top vet
schools in the country). The diagnosis - Discospondylosis. This was
said to be an uncurable "virus".

Well, it is great to have medical science provide diagnosis but it
isn't always right. This incurable illness was treated by us. How?
Nutrition. Not dog food per say. My personal opinion is that pets and
humans are malnurished to a large degree due to additives and - believe
it or not - fractionated and isolated vitamins and minerals. So, we
learned about Whole Food Nutrition.

We started feeding our dog raw meat along with whole food meal and
whole food supplements. We even obtained a product called "Dog
Inflammation Care" from www.dogcare-doghealth.com as well as other
products to deal with his problems. He fully recovered and has been
fine ever since.

It doesn't end there. Our second dog was adopted without us knowing
that she had seizures. This is a big red flag since it can mean some
serious problems besides epilepsy. It is possible, according to the
vets, that she had menge or another disease. She was finally diagnosed
as epileptic. Again, we attacked food and provided her as much
nutrition as possible. Within a short period of time - no more
seizuers. My diagnosis - malnurished.

I would say attack food first no matter what. If you are providing your
dogs with poor quality food (anything that has been heavily processed
or doesn't include raw food) than you should reexamine the situation.
Second, whole food nutritional supplements can do wonders. Again,
www.dogcare-doghealth.com has information about nutrition, illnesses,
as well as whole food products. There's amazing information about dog
food on there.

Finally, sometimes surgery is required - just like with us. But, give
healing a chance by making sure there is a means for healing to take
place. Drugs will not heal. The body is designed to consume food to
heal not drugs. Drugs have side effects (just watch some tv commercials
from drug companies - they are hysterical) because they are chemical
compounds. Foods do not have these kind of effects. There is whole food
nutrition that is packed very densely with healing foods in unique
combinations.

Be patient, love you dog, and good luck,

Kevin

Dusty wrote:
Buglady,

Thank you for your reply. It helped clarify things for me. The
recommendation for a full blood panel is great. The vet did not do
one. I don't think Sam has ever had one and he'll definitely get one
before any surgery.

Here's where I'm not understanding the vet's recommendation for
exploratory surgery:

1. Sam was diagnosed with arthritis in the right, rear knee. So, if
he has arthritis in that knee joint, I fail to see how he'll improve in
a month. Since arthritis doesn't improve. So don't know how "failure
to improve in a month" would lead to a diagnosis of ligament damage.

2. If there is also ligament damage and from what I've found in
researching it, the vet could most likely tell this from a physical
exam. Sam did receive a thorough exam of the leg and range-of-motion
movement before the x-ray. To the point where he was uncomfortable.
The vet said there was some stiffness and then said an x-ray would tell
us more. The vet said nothing after the physical exam of any ligament
damage. Only after the x-ray.

3. I do not understand how ligament damage can be determined by x-ray.
I thought that tissue did not show up on an x-ray, only bone.

4. "Exploratory surgery" bothers me. Not surgery to repair. Just
"exploratory".

While I want the best for Sam (including exploratory surgery that seems
questionable), I really feel on a fence about the need to do
exploratory surgery. Sam has always been a house dog and always on
leash. I'm the one who walks and plays with him and cannot recall any
time when he seemed to be injured or acted in pain. The limp wasn't
sudden. It developed slowly over a couple of weeks. And, once he's
been walking around for a minute or so, it seems fine.

For the time being, I'll go with conservative management, pain pills
when needed (none needed since Sunday), and a second opinion after 4-6
weeks if there is no improvement. Then, if needed, I'll ask about
exploratory vs. repair.

I'd be happy to hear what others think, too. Many thanks for your time
and help.

Dusty


buglady wrote:
"Dusty" wrote in message
ups.com...

..............Opening a dog up to *explore* is a very last option for me. I
think I'd seek out that second opinion. It does sound odd, but I suppose if
that leg had a chronic problem that wasn't really noticeable until now, you
could get arthritis in that joint and still have a torn ligament. The main
thing to find out is if there will be any kind of permanent damage from
waiting if it is a torn ligament.

..........I'm assuming this dog had a full blood panel run also? There's
lots of other things that can cause limping and if the vet couldn't find
anything but arthritis he may be missing the boat.

buglady
take out the dog before replying


  #5  
Old May 9th 06, 06:04 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament


"Dusty" wrote in message:

Thank you for your reply. It helped clarify things for me. The
recommendation for a full blood panel is great. The vet did not do
one. I don't think Sam has ever had one and he'll definitely get one
before any surgery.


I'd definitely agree with this one as well. Both my dogs have turned up
Lyme positive at one time or the other, and lameness is one of the major
symptoms. If it does turn out that he has ligament damage, you would want
to consult a specialist to get the surgical repair done.

1. Sam was diagnosed with arthritis in the right, rear knee. So, if
he has arthritis in that knee joint, I fail to see how he'll improve in
a month. Since arthritis doesn't improve. So don't know how "failure
to improve in a month" would lead to a diagnosis of ligament damage.


I really think that you need to take your concerns to the vet. How he
responds will tell you how badly you need that second opinion, or whether
you need to find a new vet. If Sam has arthritis, he may benefit from a
joint supplement to alleviate the discomfort. Pan (diagnosed with Canine
Hip Dysplasia and juvenile arthritis at age 1) has been on K-9 Liquid Health
5000, and I know that it has substantially improved her mobility and quality
of life.

Suja



  #6  
Old May 9th 06, 07:39 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament

"dogcare-doghealth" said in
rec.pets.dogs.health:

We started feeding our dog raw meat along with whole food
meal and whole food supplements. We even obtained a product
called "Dog Inflammation Care" from
www.dogcare-doghealth.com as well as other products to deal
with his problems. He fully recovered and has been fine
ever since.


So, if the OP's dog has Lyme disease yet follows your
"prescription", are you willing to bear the financial and moral
burden?

Are you a veterinarian?

It doesn't end there. Our second dog was adopted without us
knowing that she had seizures. This is a big red flag since
it can mean some serious problems besides epilepsy.


Yup.

It is
possible, according to the vets, that she had menge or
another disease.


I didn't know that mange can trigger seizures, at least
directly. Can you provide further information?

She was finally diagnosed as epileptic.


What form of epilepsy? Did you identify the trigger?

Again, we attacked food and provided her as much nutrition
as possible. Within a short period of time - no more
seizuers. My diagnosis - malnurished.


Perhaps. I'd like to know more.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
  #7  
Old May 9th 06, 08:14 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament

"dogcare-doghealth" wrote in
oups.com:

Well, it is great to have medical science provide diagnosis but it
isn't always right. This incurable illness was treated by us. How?
Nutrition. Not dog food per say. My personal opinion is that pets and
humans are malnurished to a large degree due to additives and - believe
it or not - fractionated and isolated vitamins and minerals. So, we
learned about Whole Food Nutrition.

We started feeding our dog raw meat along with whole food meal and
whole food supplements. We even obtained a product called "Dog
Inflammation Care" from www.dogcare-doghealth.com as well as other
products to deal with his problems. He fully recovered and has been
fine ever since.


*Looks at screen name of poster.*
*Looks where they got the product.*
*Is very skeptical*

--
Marcel and Moogli
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/
  #8  
Old May 9th 06, 08:24 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament

"Dusty" wrote in message
oups.com...

3. I do not understand how ligament damage can be determined by x-ray.
I thought that tissue did not show up on an x-ray, only bone.


........I don't either. Try Googling radiograph ligament damage or
diagnosing ligament damage and see what you come up with. I'd also Google
up some fixits for ligament damage and see what's involved. I'd also
suggest posting in alt.med.veterinary if you haven't already. And quiz your
vet about this issue. Since ligaments connect muscle to bone, perhaps
he/she saw an area where the ligament attaches that looked irregular. I
don't think I'd ever consent to this kind of exploratory surgery unless a
bone doc suggested it after looking at X-rays.

For the time being, I'll go with conservative management, pain pills
when needed (none needed since Sunday),


.........what kind of pain pills? If he prescribed Rimadyl, he should have
done liver/kidney bloodwork first. For any kind of surgery bloodwork is
recommended anyway, so I'd get some done.

buglady
take out the dog before replying


  #9  
Old May 9th 06, 08:34 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament

"buglady" wrote in
.net:

"Dusty" wrote in message
oups.com...

3. I do not understand how ligament damage can be determined by
x-ray.
I thought that tissue did not show up on an x-ray, only bone.


.......I don't either. Try Googling radiograph ligament damage or
diagnosing ligament damage and see what you come up with. I'd also
Google up some fixits for ligament damage and see what's involved.
I'd also suggest posting in alt.med.veterinary if you haven't already.
And quiz your vet about this issue. Since ligaments connect muscle
to bone, perhaps he/she saw an area where the ligament attaches that
looked irregular. I don't think I'd ever consent to this kind of
exploratory surgery unless a bone doc suggested it after looking at
X-rays.


Wild-assed-guess below.
Perhaps it was the lack of damage to the bone(s)/joints, combined with the
results from the range of motione test the Vet did that led him to say
ligament damage.



--
Marcel and Moogli
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/
  #10  
Old May 9th 06, 10:00 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Exploratory Surgery - Arthritis/Torn Ligament


"Suja" wrote in message
news:SH38g.51049$k%3.12749@dukeread12...
Pan (diagnosed with Canine
Hip Dysplasia and juvenile arthritis at age 1) has been on K-9 Liquid
Health
5000, and I know that it has substantially improved her mobility and
quality
of life.


Finn was on that for his last couple of years. That stuff was amazing!
Tara


 




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