A dog & canine forum. DogBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » DogBanter forum » Dog forums » Dog behavior
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Our Border Collie Pup



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old June 26th 06, 08:17 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
showdogbark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 129
Default Our Border Collie Pup

Hi everyone,
We went for a ten hour drive to Alberta to get our baby Border Collie.
And then ten hours again the next day.
His name is Blue, due to one of his eyes being sky blue and the other
brown.
He is everything and more that we were looking for in a pup.
He did not go potty in the truck. He would let us know he had to go by
whining.
He did that in the house also. Sometimes he sniffs or circles and then
we know to take him out.
Yesterday we were going into town for a family reunion and I told my
husband to take Blue out as he had just woken up and my hands were
full. Well he forgot so he walked into the kitchen and Blue was in the
midst of peeing, so he told him Good Boy and picked him up and he
finished outside.
We are using Jerry's methods. We need to brush up on them because
driving there and back to get the pup was tiring in the heat. After TEN
MONTES of cloudy cold rainy weather it suddenly got extremely hot. It
was hard to adjust so quickly.
And then we had a family reunion and had company the next day after we
got the pup and yesterday driving to town and visiting for hours with
the reunion. I am amazed at how well Blue took to all of it.
He tried digging this morning and I praised him and then I used sound
to distract him. he did it a second time and so I praised him and made
a sound from a different direction and that was the end of that.
Today we are going to do the family leadership exercise. It has been
hard to do things in the order needed in the manual with all the
driving and guests. On top of my having a migraine as I find too much
activity puts me into sensory overload because I have Chronic Fatigue
Immune Disfunction Syndrome and that comes with Environmental
Sensitivities. And do people ever wear perfume and hair goop. Then of
curse there is bounce. I call it all insecticide because that is what
is like it smells like to me, all those artificial smells.
It was so nice to come home as the Mock Orange bushes were all in bloom
all over town and in the heat the smell was released and the whole yard
smelled like a mixture of jasmine and gardenia. I love Mock Orange. I
do not know if it grows anywhere else but it is intoxicating. Blue
likes to hang out in the yard. He does not like being in the house for
long as he was brought op on a farm outdoors. My other Border Collie
Ruby was the same way. So it is handy that it is hot out as we are
outside most of the time anyway. Jerry told me what to do tonight to
have him want to sleep inside. Last night he would not go to sleep
inside, he had the night before but I figure after being in a truck all
day and to strange houses to him) when we were visiting he may have
felt more comfortable outside, so I slept outside under the stars in a
chaise lounge with him under the lounge. It was nice to smell mock
orange all night but it is not as comfortable as my bed. So I am
looking forward to following Jerry's advice tonight so I can teach him
where to sleep in the house, so we can get a routine. It is very
important as C.F.I.D.S has a deep need for pacing energy and I have to
do that or else I relapses into headaches, joint pain, insomnia etc.
While I was on the phone with Jerry, Blue started barking and going
into a play bow. Jerry told me to praise him and distract him with
noise. After one or two times he lay down beside me and lay relaxed and
calm.
He takes walks with me and heels. He never leaves my side. I have a
leash on me and a flat collar on him just in case. I go where there are
no cars. He knows to not go near the large creek that is rushing down
from the mountain run- off.
My son's half Rottie half Border Collie who is huge came up to Blue and
growled at him, Blue bared his teeth and snapped in the air. Che (my
son's dog) tried it again, this time Blue ran around his backside and
nipped him on the tail !!!
After that Che came and kissed Blue and they were buddies.
Blue is outside with his daddy in his favorite place, the yard. He is
very mellow as when he starts getting wired we praise him and distract
with sound. He has toys to play with and I walk him and he thinks this
is his home now. He never did cry for long the first night for his
siblings and mother, because I massaged his ears. A friend of mine in
her nineties told me the first thing she does when she takes a dog in
for her dog daycare(four dollars a day) she calms the dog by massaging
it's ears, as all the acupuncture points are in the ear. I also praised
him when he whined at night and distracted him with sound.
He is very attached to me and follows me everywhere. If I am not around
Daddy will do but he loves his Mommy!
Show Dog Bark
P.S.
If any one knows how I can put pix on this site for everyone to see
Blue let me know.

  #2  
Old June 26th 06, 09:38 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25
Default Our Border Collie Pup


showdogbark wrote:
Hi everyone,
We went for a ten hour drive to Alberta to get our baby Border Collie.



Hi showdogbark,
Congrats on your new baby! cant wait to see the pix:-)
Blue sounds like one lucky and happy puppy:-)
That point about massaging his ears.......so sweet, what a good mom.

Crystal

  #3  
Old June 26th 06, 10:11 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Janet B
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,260
Default Our Border Collie Pup

On 26 Jun 2006 12:17:00 -0700, "showdogbark" ,
clicked their heels and said:

Yesterday we were going into town for a family reunion and I told my
husband to take Blue out as he had just woken up and my hands were
full. Well he forgot


What a great, responsible dog owner!

so he walked into the kitchen and Blue was in the
midst of peeing, so he told him Good Boy and picked him up and he
finished outside.


Too bad. More reasonable to say "nooo - not here - let's go out".
When you praise him for going outside, how does he know that's
different from being praised for peeing inside?

It has been
hard to do things in the order needed in the manual with all the
driving and guests.


Poor puppy. Throwing things like that at a young puppy can be quite
overwhelming (how's his vaccination progress and where did you let his
little feet touch the ground?).
snip a whole bunch of drivel
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
  #4  
Old June 27th 06, 12:17 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
showdogbark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 129
Default Our Border Collie Pup


Janet B wrote:
On 26 Jun 2006 12:17:00 -0700, "showdogbark" ,
clicked their heels and said:

Yesterday we were going into town for a family reunion and I told my
husband to take Blue out as he had just woken up and my hands were
full. Well he forgot


What a great, responsible dog owner!

so he walked into the kitchen and Blue was in the
midst of peeing, so he told him Good Boy and picked him up and he
finished outside.


Too bad. More reasonable to say "nooo - not here - let's go out".
When you praise him for going outside, how does he know that's
different from being praised for peeing inside?

It has been
hard to do things in the order needed in the manual with all the
driving and guests.


Poor puppy. Throwing things like that at a young puppy can be quite
overwhelming (how's his vaccination progress and where did you let his
little feet touch the ground?).
snip a whole bunch of drivel
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com



Hello Janet,
Bet you were spanked and heard the word NO so many times that you may
have thought it was your middle name.
Shame based people come out of too may NO's.
Undisciplined, Disciplinarians it is called in therapy.
Have you read Children The Challenge by Rudolf Drekurs?
It is based on similar theories to Jerry's Methods on dog training. It
was and still is ground breaking work on child behavior. It teaches
children HOW to THINK instead of WHAT to THINK.
After all, today Ghandi, tomorrow Hitler. Or his pal Bush Senior and
his cookie cutter son.
Yes and NO are based on authoritarian models of behavior.
Since that is how come we are at war and there is a scorched earth
because of AUTHORITARIANISM.
So the dog or with children FIGURE IT OUT THEMSELVES.
Fear is based on dominator aggressor behavior.
Do you see people world wide not AFRAID to DEATH?
So you are promoting same same same.
Are you interested in RESULTS or expecting to keep making a living
teaching outdated methods that do not work on dogs or children
Remember Nancy Reagan "Just say NO."
Well I do not see drug abuse going down due to one little word. Or
Oprah getting thin by just saying No.
Read FAT IS A FEMINIST ISSUE.
And the dominator aggressor mentality when healed can help women lose
weight as you can not live in a society that preaches self discipline
while the only one's who are sent to have discipline in WAR are poor
people and indoctrinated people. And the way of fat and food is
garbge/junk food. If it were called poison NO ONE WOULD EAT IT. That is
what junk food is--POISON. The reason we are sold on it, is because
that is where the money is, where is there the big bucks in healthy
food and growing it yourself and exchangoing seeds.
Remember the Canadian group Credence Clearwater they had a song about
Vietnam "No I'm no Senator's son, no I'm not a fortunate one."
The rich and powerful DO NOT SEND THEIR CHILDREN TO WAR. If they do it
is out of harms way in order to perpetuate the idea of equality.
My son spent 6 thousand 8 hundred dollars from a famous dog trainer
that I was privy to his methods, similar to Matthew Margolis and
Haggerty etc etc.
Does not work. Ever talk to people on walks and ask them how many times
they have taken their dogs to obedience classes, sometimes FIVE times,
for what, same old same old.
Jerry gets results and to understand his methods takes years of study
in behavior, human and animal.
He thinks out of the box like Draikurs. Now Dreikurs is still studied
in Universities.
Too bad more people are stuck on proving they can dominate a child or
dog rather than wanting results of happy well adjusted dogs and
children
The day's of choke chains and NO are over. The world is saying PEACE
NOW.
So are the millions of dogs in shelters LIFE NOW, because the old
school dog trainers have sold them a lousy bill of goods. Of course
some are there due to neglect, a majority are there because the old
methods do not work.
The First Nations People along with good farmers who know how to train
with whistles and hand signals with the Border Collies also know
methods that work.
Blue has pedigree from his lineage that have won INTERNATIONAL
CHAMPIONSHIPS. His ( the farmer's) dogs cost thousands each and allot
to ship here and he went and flew there to hand pick his dogs. The man
is into keeping the breed healthy and stopping the spin ball border
collies being bred for money now that Babe has come out. His father,
brother and sister all come from sheep herding backgrounds from
Scotland
I will not answer Demeaning Questions that in therapy are called
DISGUISED STATEMENTS on your so called questions about Blue.
I hated even having said his name so the like of you can take a shot at
him.
I knew that there would be a bunch of HOT AIR thrown my way, but hey if
YOU GOT GAS, GO AHEAD AND KEEP FARTING. Must be from the indigestion of
so much INDOCTRINATION into same old same old. EQUALS war, a scorched
earth and millions of dead dogs and cats.
Show Dog Bark

  #5  
Old June 27th 06, 12:30 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Janet B
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,260
Default Our Border Collie Pup

On 26 Jun 2006 16:17:10 -0700, "showdogbark" ,
clicked their heels and said:

snip
A whole bunch of truly bizarre crap. No wonder you are a Jerry
disciple - you should either start taking your meds or stop taking
drugs.


--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
  #6  
Old June 27th 06, 12:39 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Spot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 323
Default Our Border Collie Pup

Well someone has their panties in a bunch...........

I never have used Jerrys methods and I don't throw things at my dog. After
seeing all the post from "Jerry" I can't see why anyone would use his
methods. The man can't even hold a decent conversation with out it making
nonsense.

I find that just paying attention to them and using a reward gets you a
whole lot further and a better behaved dog. I'll admit I bought an ecollar
for my shepard/collie mix to get a handle on the barking and critter chasing
neither of which she does any more and she seldom wears the collar now.
That's about as cruel as I've ever gotten with her. But then those few
jolts aren't as bad as it would be getting hit with a car at 60 mph. But of
course according to "Jerry" everyone abuses their dogs.

Celeste


"showdogbark" wrote in message
ups.com...

Janet B wrote:
On 26 Jun 2006 12:17:00 -0700, "showdogbark" ,
clicked their heels and said:

Yesterday we were going into town for a family reunion and I told my
husband to take Blue out as he had just woken up and my hands were
full. Well he forgot


What a great, responsible dog owner!

so he walked into the kitchen and Blue was in the
midst of peeing, so he told him Good Boy and picked him up and he
finished outside.


Too bad. More reasonable to say "nooo - not here - let's go out".
When you praise him for going outside, how does he know that's
different from being praised for peeing inside?

It has been
hard to do things in the order needed in the manual with all the
driving and guests.


Poor puppy. Throwing things like that at a young puppy can be quite
overwhelming (how's his vaccination progress and where did you let his
little feet touch the ground?).
snip a whole bunch of drivel
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com



Hello Janet,
Bet you were spanked and heard the word NO so many times that you may
have thought it was your middle name.
Shame based people come out of too may NO's.
Undisciplined, Disciplinarians it is called in therapy.
Have you read Children The Challenge by Rudolf Drekurs?
It is based on similar theories to Jerry's Methods on dog training. It
was and still is ground breaking work on child behavior. It teaches
children HOW to THINK instead of WHAT to THINK.
After all, today Ghandi, tomorrow Hitler. Or his pal Bush Senior and
his cookie cutter son.
Yes and NO are based on authoritarian models of behavior.
Since that is how come we are at war and there is a scorched earth
because of AUTHORITARIANISM.
So the dog or with children FIGURE IT OUT THEMSELVES.
Fear is based on dominator aggressor behavior.
Do you see people world wide not AFRAID to DEATH?
So you are promoting same same same.
Are you interested in RESULTS or expecting to keep making a living
teaching outdated methods that do not work on dogs or children
Remember Nancy Reagan "Just say NO."
Well I do not see drug abuse going down due to one little word. Or
Oprah getting thin by just saying No.
Read FAT IS A FEMINIST ISSUE.
And the dominator aggressor mentality when healed can help women lose
weight as you can not live in a society that preaches self discipline
while the only one's who are sent to have discipline in WAR are poor
people and indoctrinated people. And the way of fat and food is
garbge/junk food. If it were called poison NO ONE WOULD EAT IT. That is
what junk food is--POISON. The reason we are sold on it, is because
that is where the money is, where is there the big bucks in healthy
food and growing it yourself and exchangoing seeds.
Remember the Canadian group Credence Clearwater they had a song about
Vietnam "No I'm no Senator's son, no I'm not a fortunate one."
The rich and powerful DO NOT SEND THEIR CHILDREN TO WAR. If they do it
is out of harms way in order to perpetuate the idea of equality.
My son spent 6 thousand 8 hundred dollars from a famous dog trainer
that I was privy to his methods, similar to Matthew Margolis and
Haggerty etc etc.
Does not work. Ever talk to people on walks and ask them how many times
they have taken their dogs to obedience classes, sometimes FIVE times,
for what, same old same old.
Jerry gets results and to understand his methods takes years of study
in behavior, human and animal.
He thinks out of the box like Draikurs. Now Dreikurs is still studied
in Universities.
Too bad more people are stuck on proving they can dominate a child or
dog rather than wanting results of happy well adjusted dogs and
children
The day's of choke chains and NO are over. The world is saying PEACE
NOW.
So are the millions of dogs in shelters LIFE NOW, because the old
school dog trainers have sold them a lousy bill of goods. Of course
some are there due to neglect, a majority are there because the old
methods do not work.
The First Nations People along with good farmers who know how to train
with whistles and hand signals with the Border Collies also know
methods that work.
Blue has pedigree from his lineage that have won INTERNATIONAL
CHAMPIONSHIPS. His ( the farmer's) dogs cost thousands each and allot
to ship here and he went and flew there to hand pick his dogs. The man
is into keeping the breed healthy and stopping the spin ball border
collies being bred for money now that Babe has come out. His father,
brother and sister all come from sheep herding backgrounds from
Scotland
I will not answer Demeaning Questions that in therapy are called
DISGUISED STATEMENTS on your so called questions about Blue.
I hated even having said his name so the like of you can take a shot at
him.
I knew that there would be a bunch of HOT AIR thrown my way, but hey if
YOU GOT GAS, GO AHEAD AND KEEP FARTING. Must be from the indigestion of
so much INDOCTRINATION into same old same old. EQUALS war, a scorched
earth and millions of dead dogs and cats.
Show Dog Bark



  #7  
Old June 27th 06, 12:42 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
AMB
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 53
Default Our Border Collie Pup

On 26 Jun 2006 12:17:00 -0700, "showdogbark"
wrote:

Hi everyone,
We went for a ten hour drive to Alberta to get our baby Border Collie.
And then ten hours again the next day.
His name is Blue, due to one of his eyes being sky blue and the other
brown.


How old is Blue?

Anne
and Baxter (who still sometimes forgets he's not a puppy)

  #8  
Old June 27th 06, 02:03 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
showdogbark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 129
Default Our Border Collie Pup


AMB wrote:
On 26 Jun 2006 12:17:00 -0700, "showdogbark"
wrote:

Hi everyone,
We went for a ten hour drive to Alberta to get our baby Border Collie.
And then ten hours again the next day.
His name is Blue, due to one of his eyes being sky blue and the other
brown.


How old is Blue?

Anne
and Baxter (who still sometimes forgets he's not a puppy)


He is 9 weeks old.
Show Dog Bark

  #9  
Old June 27th 06, 02:06 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
showdogbark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 129
Default Our Border Collie Pup


Janet B wrote:
On 26 Jun 2006 16:17:10 -0700, "showdogbark" ,
clicked their heels and said:

snip
A whole bunch of truly bizarre crap. No wonder you are a Jerry
disciple - you should either start taking your meds or stop taking
drugs.


--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com



You are being defensive. Defensiveness is fear based.
Show Dog Bark

  #10  
Old June 27th 06, 02:17 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
showdogbark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 129
Default Our Border Collie Pup


Spot wrote:
Well someone has their panties in a bunch...........

I never have used Jerrys methods and I don't throw things at my dog. After
seeing all the post from "Jerry" I can't see why anyone would use his
methods. The man can't even hold a decent conversation with out it making
nonsense.

I find that just paying attention to them and using a reward gets you a
whole lot further and a better behaved dog. I'll admit I bought an ecollar
for my shepard/collie mix to get a handle on the barking and critter chasing
neither of which she does any more and she seldom wears the collar now.
That's about as cruel as I've ever gotten with her. But then those few
jolts aren't as bad as it would be getting hit with a car at 60 mph. But of
course according to "Jerry" everyone abuses their dogs.

Celeste


"showdogbark" wrote in message
ups.com...

Janet B wrote:
On 26 Jun 2006 12:17:00 -0700, "showdogbark" ,
clicked their heels and said:

Yesterday we were going into town for a family reunion and I told my
husband to take Blue out as he had just woken up and my hands were
full. Well he forgot

What a great, responsible dog owner!

so he walked into the kitchen and Blue was in the
midst of peeing, so he told him Good Boy and picked him up and he
finished outside.

Too bad. More reasonable to say "nooo - not here - let's go out".
When you praise him for going outside, how does he know that's
different from being praised for peeing inside?

It has been
hard to do things in the order needed in the manual with all the
driving and guests.

Poor puppy. Throwing things like that at a young puppy can be quite
overwhelming (how's his vaccination progress and where did you let his
little feet touch the ground?).
snip a whole bunch of drivel
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com



Hello Janet,
Bet you were spanked and heard the word NO so many times that you may
have thought it was your middle name.
Shame based people come out of too may NO's.
Undisciplined, Disciplinarians it is called in therapy.
Have you read Children The Challenge by Rudolf Drekurs?
It is based on similar theories to Jerry's Methods on dog training. It
was and still is ground breaking work on child behavior. It teaches
children HOW to THINK instead of WHAT to THINK.
After all, today Ghandi, tomorrow Hitler. Or his pal Bush Senior and
his cookie cutter son.
Yes and NO are based on authoritarian models of behavior.
Since that is how come we are at war and there is a scorched earth
because of AUTHORITARIANISM.
So the dog or with children FIGURE IT OUT THEMSELVES.
Fear is based on dominator aggressor behavior.
Do you see people world wide not AFRAID to DEATH?
So you are promoting same same same.
Are you interested in RESULTS or expecting to keep making a living
teaching outdated methods that do not work on dogs or children
Remember Nancy Reagan "Just say NO."
Well I do not see drug abuse going down due to one little word. Or
Oprah getting thin by just saying No.
Read FAT IS A FEMINIST ISSUE.
And the dominator aggressor mentality when healed can help women lose
weight as you can not live in a society that preaches self discipline
while the only one's who are sent to have discipline in WAR are poor
people and indoctrinated people. And the way of fat and food is
garbge/junk food. If it were called poison NO ONE WOULD EAT IT. That is
what junk food is--POISON. The reason we are sold on it, is because
that is where the money is, where is there the big bucks in healthy
food and growing it yourself and exchangoing seeds.
Remember the Canadian group Credence Clearwater they had a song about
Vietnam "No I'm no Senator's son, no I'm not a fortunate one."
The rich and powerful DO NOT SEND THEIR CHILDREN TO WAR. If they do it
is out of harms way in order to perpetuate the idea of equality.
My son spent 6 thousand 8 hundred dollars from a famous dog trainer
that I was privy to his methods, similar to Matthew Margolis and
Haggerty etc etc.
Does not work. Ever talk to people on walks and ask them how many times
they have taken their dogs to obedience classes, sometimes FIVE times,
for what, same old same old.
Jerry gets results and to understand his methods takes years of study
in behavior, human and animal.
He thinks out of the box like Draikurs. Now Dreikurs is still studied
in Universities.
Too bad more people are stuck on proving they can dominate a child or
dog rather than wanting results of happy well adjusted dogs and
children
The day's of choke chains and NO are over. The world is saying PEACE
NOW.
So are the millions of dogs in shelters LIFE NOW, because the old
school dog trainers have sold them a lousy bill of goods. Of course
some are there due to neglect, a majority are there because the old
methods do not work.
The First Nations People along with good farmers who know how to train
with whistles and hand signals with the Border Collies also know
methods that work.
Blue has pedigree from his lineage that have won INTERNATIONAL
CHAMPIONSHIPS. His ( the farmer's) dogs cost thousands each and allot
to ship here and he went and flew there to hand pick his dogs. The man
is into keeping the breed healthy and stopping the spin ball border
collies being bred for money now that Babe has come out. His father,
brother and sister all come from sheep herding backgrounds from
Scotland
I will not answer Demeaning Questions that in therapy are called
DISGUISED STATEMENTS on your so called questions about Blue.
I hated even having said his name so the like of you can take a shot at
him.
I knew that there would be a bunch of HOT AIR thrown my way, but hey if
YOU GOT GAS, GO AHEAD AND KEEP FARTING. Must be from the indigestion of
so much INDOCTRINATION into same old same old. EQUALS war, a scorched
earth and millions of dead dogs and cats.
Show Dog Bark


Your first comment about getting my panties all twisted out of shape
was sexist and inappropriate.
No matter what you think of Jerry Howe this is a child friendly site
and that kind of talk is sexual and has nothing to do with dogs. Now I
myself think Jerry needs to take out the triple X when he writes as
this takes away from his work and does not serve his credibility.
Also I agree with a person who said he should stop using the word pussy
as it does have a sexual connotation only due to the use of the triple
X.
Using an e-collar is harmful to dogs as they are very sensitive to
electromagnetic energy and it can cause seizures like when children
watch strobing commercials or television shows, seizures are easy to
trigger and can not often be detected except by vomiting, headaches and
weird behavior when it comes to dogs. Why are you defending using one?
Show Dog Bark

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
rec.pets.dogs: Collies Breed-FAQ Cindy Tittle Moore Dog info 0 April 20th 06 05:33 AM
rec.pets.dogs: Collies Breed-FAQ Cindy Tittle Moore Dog info 0 March 20th 06 06:31 AM
rec.pets.dogs: Collies Breed-FAQ Cindy Tittle Moore Dog info 0 February 18th 06 06:25 AM
rec.pets.dogs: Collies Breed-FAQ Cindy Tittle Moore Dog info 0 December 19th 05 06:34 AM
rec.pets.dogs: Collies Breed-FAQ Cindy Tittle Moore Dog info 0 November 18th 05 06:35 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.2.0 (Unauthorized Upgrade)
Copyright ©2004-2024 DogBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.