Hi everyone,
I read thru all of the posts just knowing that someone else had
already addressed my problems but if so I overlooked it.
I have had 2 of my dogs since they were a year old. They are now 13
and 14. The older one a spayed female Border Collie mix. The 13 year
old a Black Lab, 15 months ago I introduced a year old Pit Bul/Lab mix
to the pack. He is a neutered male approx 2 years old now....Everything
has been rolling right along. Several months ago another Pit Bull
joined the family although he has remained outside. He is not neutered
yet and though he is very mellow I just feel like I am pushing my luck
to introduce him to the household. He is not housebroken and most likely
has spent his life on a chain.
Ok here is the problem...Jubal Early the Pit Bull/Lab mix recently
attacked Buck (my old Lab) 3 times in one day. It was not the most
vicious attacks I have ever seen but could have easily escalated. Buck
came out of it with a scrape on his ear. Buck just laid around for a
day. I am not sure if it was because he was sore or because he was
broken. Of course I have kept Jubal Early seperated or on a leash since
then. Buck is definitely afraid of Jubal, the sound of him makes Buck
anxious. Prior to this incident Jubal E steered clear of Buck if a toy
would roll over to Buck he would grab the toy and run for his life, even
jump over the couch at times to avoid passing Buck in a close hall way.
I must admit to having made some mistakes with Jubal E. He is young and
active and he is fun to play with plus I did not have complete control
of his handling. Suffice it to say Jubal was allowed to run the show.
He became the Pack Leader over humans and dogs alike.
My theory is that Jubal has just taken over as the Alpha Dog. The
part I do NOT understand is why Jubal Early is still on the attack since
Buck is not offering any opposition. I can't say he is submissive. He
doesn't get a chance to be. Terrified would be more like it....I have
gone over the incidents a million times and for the life of me I cannot
put my finger on anything in particular triggering the incident...
There was a time when Lady (my oldest dog was the Alpha dog and
controlled Buck) until a few years ago and she gracefully took a back
seat to him. Somebody, please help? Do you think things will ever
settle down here? All of my dogs are rescued dogs that just came to me.
As much as I love the 2 new additions. I will not see my poor old Dog
Buck be terrified and hurt by anyone.
You can imagine what it is like, constantly shuffling dogs and fearing
disaster. This has all hapened a couple of days ago and I am exhausted.
I am sorry to be so wordy, but I was trying to give you the straight
scoop so hopefully someone could offer some advice. I have always had
dogs. I have owned a show dog, obedience dogs, (Dobermans) so I am not
a novice to the dog world. Somebody please HELP us...
Thanks for reading this.....

Be Free,
Judy

On Thu, 6 Jul 2006 20:18:48 -0400 Judith Althouse whittled these words:
Hi everyone,
I read thru all of the posts just knowing that someone else had
already addressed my problems but if so I overlooked it.
I have had 2 of my dogs since they were a year old. They are now 13
and 14. The older one a spayed female Border Collie mix. The 13 year
old a Black Lab, 15 months ago I introduced a year old Pit Bul/Lab mix
to the pack. He is a neutered male approx 2 years old now....Everything
has been rolling right along. Several months ago another Pit Bull
joined the family although he has remained outside. He is not neutered
yet and though he is very mellow I just feel like I am pushing my luck
to introduce him to the household. He is not housebroken and most likely
has spent his life on a chain.

http://www.badrap.org/rescue/multi_pits.cfm


--
Diane Blackman
There is no moral victory in proclaiming to abhor violence
while preaching with violent words.
http://dog-play.com/ http://dogplayshops.com/

On Thu, 6 Jul 2006 20:18:48 -0400, (Judith
Althouse) wrote:

[]
You can imagine what it is like, constantly shuffling dogs and fearing
disaster. This has all hapened a couple of days ago and I am exhausted.
I am sorry to be so wordy, but I was trying to give you the straight
scoop so hopefully someone could offer some advice. I have always had
dogs. I have owned a show dog, obedience dogs, (Dobermans) so I am not
a novice to the dog world. Somebody please HELP us...
Thanks for reading this.....

Let me ask you a couple of questions, Judy. Don't you think that your
two old-timers deserve to live out their remaining time in peace and
harmony? Do you know much about pit bulls?

IMO, what you should do is this: re-home the pit mix (your old timers
may be in danger), and continue to keep the pit bull outside for the
foreseeable future. Or you could think about re-homing him, too,
because having a dog live outside is certainly not in the best
interest of the dog, and that goes double for pit bulls. But whatever
you do, keep the pits separated at all times.

You're not experienced enough to deal with all the combination of
problems that are possible here (or you wouldn't be here asking for
help), which potentially includes the deaths of one of more of your
dogs.

I applaud you for taking in unwanted/abandoned animals, especially pit
bulls. But you don't invite a couple of pit bulls or pit mixes into
your house without knowing what you're doing. You obviously don't
(again, or you wouldn't be here asking for help), and I don't think
you can be brought up to speed quickly enough (of course, I don't know
that much about you, but it's a hunch).

This is the part of your post that alarms me most:

You can imagine what it is like, constantly shuffling dogs and fearing
disaster. This has all hapened a couple of days ago and I am exhausted.

Please don't bite off more than you can chew. That's when "stuff"
happens. If something really bad were to happen to one of your
old-timers, feeling exhausted would be the least of your concerns.

You deserve to live without the fear (which is well-founded), and your
old-timers deserve the same fate.

Anyway, that's my opinion, and I'm stickin' to it.

But good luck anyway, and thanks for having a good heart!

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

Way to go, Denmark!
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1143

"I hope people the world over will read this interview and learn just what
kind of men are in Iraq right now willing to take control of their own country."
http://boredsoldier.blogspot.com/200...i-general.html

ShowDogBuffoon's buddies say: "We hate Canada!"
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...all&print=true

An example of Leftist "science":
http://www.democraticunderground.com... mesg_id=56836

Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:

On Thu, 6 Jul 2006 20:18:48 -0400, (Judith
Althouse) wrote:

You can imagine what it is like, constantly shuffling dogs and fearing
disaster. This has all hapened a couple of days ago and I am exhausted.

Please don't bite off more than you can chew. That's when "stuff"
happens. If something really bad were to happen to one of your
old-timers, feeling exhausted would be the least of your concerns.


Just to endorse this advice, my aggression-specialist friend has a maxim:
"management always fails." You know that the "shuffling" is error-
prone; that's why you posted.

I wouldn't bet on changing a dog's nature, or on a Pit or Pit mix becoming
totally safe around other dogs.

Amy DAhl

Thanks Jack and Amy for taking the time to post. I really do appreciate
it. I don't think I was totally clear on the situation even tho I did
ramble on endlessly. I do not claim to be a Pit Bull expert but I think
I am pretty knowledgeable about the breed as I have been reading and
observing everything I can about Pit Bulls since Jubal Early came along
14 months ago. I am the one who always swore I would not ever own one.
I have absolutely grown to love him. He is one of the smartest dogs I
have ever owned. All the world may be right about Pit Bulls but you
don't know Jubal E. I can't speak for Jack the new dog that is in the
yard and comes in daily to visit. I am not sure of him and would like
to re-home him...I don't mean to be ungrateful but let's just cut to the
chase, don't you mean euthanize him? I can't find a living soul that
wants a Pit Bull not even the Humane Society. I am not a dog collecter.
Jack came to me so weak he could barely stand. I really didn't mean
this to be a PBT debate. Let me rephrase my question? Can the Alpha
male position change and life go on? Jubal Early is not lunging and
snarling and in attack mode. I would like to think it is my skill at
off setting pending trouble at this moment. You don't really think I am
going to jeopardize my best friends that I love more than most people I
know? The seperation is temporary. I just want to give it some time.
I just don't think Jubal Early snapped there are some other dynamics
going on here. Anybody got any input on the Alpha Dog changing in
position?
PS I can recite the rules of being an ethical PBT owner and no one is
more aware of the disasters that can occur often times thanks to the
cruelty of man and the ignorant breeding (or lack of) and handling.
Again, thanks for the input and thank you for that website Amy I think
that is one I missed somehow

Be Free,
Judy

OOps Diane I meant to thank you for the inciteful web site, as I said it
is one that I missed....I will defend Jubal Early to my grave. He was a
Confederate Officer you know? (named after one)

Be Free,
Judy

On Fri, 7 Jul 2006 00:18:13 -0400, (Judith
Althouse) wrote:

Let me rephrase my question? Can the Alpha
male position change and life go on?

Not when you are talking pit bull or part pit bull. You can never be
sure that he will stop just because he is now alpha, which you have
seen. That's not how pit bulls think and work. That doesn't mean
that you have to rehome one of them, but you do have to keep them
separated. That's just the way it is. If it is running you ragged,
then you might not be able to maintain the diligence needed to keep
the older dog safe. What people are trying to tell you is that you
were lucky things went so well in a multi-dog household with a pit
mix, but the honeymoon is over.

I've had a dog aggressive dog that could not be left alone with other
dogs and had to be closely supervised even when I was around. She was
a dalmatian who had health problems that made her difficult to find a
home for. It was my pleasure to make it possible for her to stay in
our home, but it required constant diligence and a setup much like the
one discussed in the article on pit bulls. I had the advantage of
having different fenced areas of yard most of the time I had her as
well as different rooms so as to separate her in the home. I still
had to have her under rock solid control with good obedience work and
I did have to learn all her moods and body language so I could stop
things before they started instead of trying to break up big fights
and stitch up dogs. It took a lot of work and I still never left her
alone even with dogs she had been fine with because little things
could set her off. It was a lot of work and worry. I don't regret it
and it sounds like you are willing to do it for your dogs, too. I
commend you for that. But remember that my dog wasn't a pit bull bred
to fight other dogs and fight to the end. It will be even more
serious for you to never let your guard down. Make sure that you are
up to it and are serious about it because I can't imagine seeing or
coming home to one dog killing another, but that is all too common
among pit bull owners who are shocked that it could go that far with
their dogs who have in the past got along with the dogs in the house.
I think you can do it, but your post worries me because it sounds like
you don't want to believe that this is anything but alpha posturing
that will resolve. What you need to understand is that with pit
bulls, even if this were to resolve, you would never be able to trust
your pit bull not to go after the older dog again over the same thing
or something totally different.

Good luck in whatever you decide!

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

Judy, I suspect that you're confusing pack dynamics and plain old
aggression. Pack alphas don't behave the way you describe the pit mix
acting. Alphas are benign dictators and they always stop when they
achieve their goal - submission. None of us can tell what kind of
aggression the pit mix is showing (dominance, same-sex,
territorial,etc.) but I'm pretty sure that you're dealing with
aggression, not changing pack dynamics. The bottom line is that your
older lab isn't safe, and won't be safe with the pit mix. In fact, I
strongly suspect that without the older lab available, the pit mix
would switch target, probably to the new dog in the yard. I realize
that you're committed to the pit mix, but he is the problem. You need
to get someone competent in to see what's happening and whether his
behavior can be changed.

Lynn K.

Ok, it could be a pack standing issue or it could be dog aggression.
Both present different problems, but I am of the opinion that both can
be controlled to a safe level. My first concern is to replies that you
can never trust your dog alone with any other dog again. I disagree
with this statement, because I feel that no one should trust any dog
alone with other dogs. I don't care what breed it is, I have seen
fights between labs that most likely had deadly consequences had they
not been broken up. Even the lovable Golden Retriever has killed other
dogs before (with a little bit of research you can find several
incidents). Small breeds shouldn't be left alone either, because the
same things that can trigger a dog fight also happen with small breeds.
So, to sum up this point, no dog should ever be trusted with other
dogs alone.

Now, in regards to your problem, I still think it could be an alpha
male situation, but it could also be a dog aggression situation. The
obvious trigger to your recent problem is the dog has now reached
adulthood. I had a similar problem with my 2 year old American
Staffordshire/ Dogue de Bordeaux Mix,\ over a period of three weeks
develop an aggression problem towards strange dogs. In his case it is
a dog aggression problem, and I am training him and resocializing him
to overcome it. However, in your case I wouldn't say it is definitely
an aggression problem. There are far too many things that need to be
observed to really determine what it is. Something as simple as the
dog feeling you give too much attention to the older dog and not enough
to him can trigger an incident. So, in order to successfully keep the
two dogs together you definitely need to pay careful attention to how
the two of them are acting.

Now, the most important thing you need to do, in my opinion, is
training. Training can do wonders for most problems you can encounter
with any dog. From your post it sounds like your house is the kind
where there isn't a real defined social position for the people, and
the dogs are just allowed to be dogs. This is the typical dog owning
household from what I have seen, having volunteered for several years
with an animal rescue group. The problem is, you have now got a dog
reaching maturity that, as a breed, is capable of dog aggression,
dominance, and can be very strong willed. Luckily, they are also very
eager to please their owners. What I have found to help with the
situation is very strict obedience training. Obedience training will
net several benefits. First and foremost, it will securely establish
you as the alpha member of the pack. This is very important because
without this being very clear to your dog, you can not expect him to
think he must do what you tell him, when you tell him. The way to
properly establish this position is through strict, firm training where
you expect excellence and consistency. Just because you are not in a
training session, it doesn't mean he can get away with not minding your
instructions.

Another benefit of strict obedience is if you sense an incident is
about to occur, you can quickly take control of the situation with
something as simple as a sit. This is where the strict level of
obedience comes in, because a dog with strict training that is on a
sit, does not move a foot, let alone get up from the sit. Other
commands of extreme importance are a heel and a recall("come" or
"here"). The important thing is, when you see one of your pit mix
doing one of the signs that you learn to recognize, you use the command
which you feel he performs the best.

The other main advantage to obedience training is simply how well
behaved your dog becomes once you have started the work. Little things
you didn't even notice as problems before will suddenly correct
themselves. For instance, I love lap dogs of all sizes, and I like to
be able to sit/lay on a couch with a nice warm dog by my side. My dog,
within a week of beginning strict obedience training(I had always
worked on obedience, but not strictly) stop just getting on the couch
with me. When he wants on the couch he walks up to it, and looks at
me. Now, I like having him up, but I tell him no. This is important
because the couch is a status symbol, and the alpha member must invite
him up. In your case I would advise against any of your dogs on the
couch, in case you let them up, because if you control his access to
the couch and not theirs you are asking for trouble. Furthermore, if
he feels you let them up more than him, you are asking for trouble. In
my case I will invite him up later, when I am certain he has forgotten
about it, this way I still get my lap dog.

Another important thing for you to do is observe the two dogs'
interactions, this is key to preventing it from escalating to a fight
when it is still at a controllable level. The website posted above had
a lot of valid information in this regards. Some key times to pay
attention to the two of them is whenever they are around toys, and
whenever you are paying attention to any of them. Also, I would not
feed them together, because this is to big of a trigger for fights. I
would hope you have kennels/crates for all of you dogs, and you can use
them as a good way to feed your dogs. You can feed in different rooms
if you prefer, but I personally think it is just easier to kennel them,
and then prepare their food. Don't just kennel the pit mix though,
because you will cause jealousy if you do that, so do all or none, but
they do need to be fed separately. The next important thing is, feed
them in pack order. Alpha eats first and then on down the ranks in a
pack. You don't have to wait for the pit mix to finish before giving
the others their food, but you do need to give him his food first. If
you feed them in their kennel this also helps to reaffirm that their
kennel is a place of comfort and safety.

Finally, when I say strict obedience, I mean good enough that he could
pass a competitive obedience trial. I would advise against a
completely positive reinforcement method, which is the current dog
training fad. These methods work great for teach a dog tricks, but
obedience is about commands. Your pit mix must know that what you say
is law, and it must obey. If you only use positive reinforcement, you
dogs will obey you, when it is convenient for them or whenever they
feel like pleasing you. However, the important time for them to obey,
is when their instinct is telling them that they need to fight with the
other dog. To do this, I use corrections which are matched to the dog.
Some dogs are soft and only need you to use a angry tone when you tell
them no. Other dogs require a physical correction for them to
understand that they must follow your commands. Again, the severity of
the correction varies by the dog. Some dogs require a simple short
jerk on the leash with a regular collar. Also, some actions of the dog
require a more severe correction than others. For instance, when you
are working your pit mix in the presence of the other dogs (shouldn't
do this until after he has learned what he is supposed to do), if he
lunges at one of the other dogs when he is supposed to be sitting, one
of your highest corrections is in order, because you need it to be
clear to him that lunging at other dogs in completely unacceptable.
But if he just moves a foot when he is supposed to be on a sit, you
only want to use a light correction initially to remind him what he is
supposed to be doing, and then reaffirm the command(say "No", light
correction, say "Sit"). If he doesn't listen to the reaffirmed
command, then a heavy correction is in order.

The most important thing to remember about corrections is that you
never use a correction when he is learning a command, since he doesn't
know what he is supposed to do yet and you never use a correction when
he is confused as to what you want him to do. First off, it will cause
him to introvert and not go any further with his training, and second,
it is cruel to correct a dog that doesn't know what you want. The
first stage in training is to teach the dog, you should use things like
positive training techniques for this. Marking such as clicker
training and food work well for this, but once the dog understands what
you want you need to quickly phase them out for the new command. You
then need to work with corrections to ensure the dog always does it in
your training environment, which should be someplace quiet and alone,
free of distractions. You then need to add in distractions, such as
working in different environments, and around the other dogs as well as
strange dogs, some dogs will get confused with too many distractions,
so you again don't want to correct until you know they understand what
is expected.

I'm sure some people will be opposed to these training techniques, but
in the case of dog fights, regardless of the cause, you must get near
perfection from your dog's obedience training, and conditioning and
other positive reinforcement techniques do not give that level of
performance. I have seen many dogs which are passed at solely positive
training classes who only listen when food is shown, or only a certain
percentage of the time. With something this important, you want the
dog to have it's butt on the ground and stay that way the second you
tell it to. The one time the dog doesn't obey could mean disaster, and
that is why you must demand perfection.

And of course, there is always the possibility that this will not work,
and he will just not listen to commands when he wants to fight the
other dog. If that is the case, then I would strongly advise putting
the dog down, I don't like rehoming dogs that had a temperament issue
that you can't correct since you just pass the problem on to them.
Just make sure you give the dog long enough to improve before making
that decision. Good luck, and if you have any specific questions I
will do my best to answer them.

Nick

wrote

My first concern is to replies that you
can never trust your dog alone with any other dog again. I disagree
with this statement, because I feel that no one should trust any dog
alone with other dogs.

Have my language skills eroded to the point of extinction or is there
something wrong with that sentence?

--
Bob
http://www.kanyak.com