If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Sorry....geez!
Ok, I'm new here and didn't know you couldn't sell dogs on here. I had
the ad for the doberman pinschers. So, for everyone that was rude and got mad...I'm sorry! And FYI, it is a friend that has the dogs not me! I don't know why she bred them but I'm just trying to help her out. I now know not to post here cause you guys can be really rude! |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Sorry....geez!
|
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Sorry....geez!
HOWEDY Golden Girl Goddess of ETHICKAL BACKYARD
PUPPY MILL BREEDIN / CRIPPLED AGILITY SHOCK COLLAR TRAININ, "Robin Nuttall" wrote in message news:gMLwg.49499$FQ1.13547@attbi_s71... wrote: Ok, I'm new here and didn't know you couldn't sell dogs on here. SHORE you can. You and everyWON else does it. I had the ad for the doberman pinschers. So, for everyone that was rude and got mad...I'm sorry! She don't have to apologize to you mental cases for COMPETIN with you for PUPPY SALES {}; ~ ) And FYI, it is a friend that has the dogs not me! The mental cases don't believe that. I don't know why she bred them but I'm just trying to help her out. I now know not to post here cause you guys can be really rude! We don't have warm fuzzies for people like your so-called friend, You mean ethical breeders. who breed dogs even though there are huge numbers of dogs in rescue. You got your own little PUPPY MILL goin. REMEMBER robin? Yes, even purebreds, yes, even Dobermans. Like you got. And didn't you get a Min Pin to breed, to boot? Dobermans are plagued with a host of very serious genetic diseases, That's a load of crap robin. so finding somebody breeding them with no thought or clue about that is maddening for those of us who actually care about the breed. You mean, ETHICKAL BREEDERS who BREED FOR TEMPERAMENT?: From: Robin Nuttall Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 16:01:45 GMT Subject: Shock and awe shelly wrote: In , Robin Nuttall typed: My dogs don't get to make discipline decisions. My dogs get to be nice with other dogs, period. If they're not nice, they stay on lead until they can learn to be nice. exactly. that goes for being the Dog Police and for being obnoxious brats who pick on other dogs. i don't tolerate either of those behaviors within my own pack or between my two and other dogs. This is something I'm acutely attuned to. Part of it is owning Dobermans, who have a bad rep anyway. Part of it is that I know for a fact that my puppy's sire is profoundly dog aggressive. It was the one thing I did NOT like about using him, and the plusses outweighed the minuses. But I watch Cala like a hawk. Being able to go to offlead parks has actually helped, as she's gotten to meet a large number of dogs of all shapes and sizes. But our dog park is different than many in that it's a huge area with trails cut through brush--mob mentality doesn't often come into it. Robin Nuttall. Namely she would sometimes get too excited, And bite you: From: "Robin Nuttall" Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 04:00:43 GMT Subject: Does your dog do this? "Andrea" wrote in message ... The "sorry" look and licking is appeasment behavior. Dogs to it to avoid retribution, not because they really understand how to apologize. Really, you should just teach her some bite inhibition so that you don't get hurt, and she doesn't have to worry. I totally agree, but with some dogs that's far easier said than done. Cala is finally showing signs of trying to keep her teeth to herself, and it's been a constant battle since she was a baby puppy. She's now 17 months old. I have often been a total mass of bruises from her releasing overdrive into a nip. Not that she's ever full-out bitten me, but trust me, those nips and pinches can be extremely painful. The higher drive the dog is, the more difficult it can be to deal with the issue. Robin Nuttall. go over the top and vent drive by biting/nipping at me. Because you are withholding treats choking shocking intimidating and crating your highly driven working dogs as per you posted case history which I've spent the past couple of hours (maybe ten or so...) just researching your ETHICKAL BREEDING program and your high drive backyard bred genetically DEFECTIVE "working dogs" which you'll ONLY SELL to show homes. Interesting, compelling, sickening stuff, every bit of it. You should be TOO ASHAMED to post here ever again. I had to force myself to quit with only the tip of the iceberg uncovered thus far reading only posts mentioning your dog Carla. I had no idea you were a backyard breeder too! You even bred your DEFECTIVE back yard bred bitch to a DOG AGGRESSIVE sire to get the "QUALITIES" you wanted, yet you still couldn't train Carla to come or heel by 18 months of age, nor PASS the CGC!!! despite having bred her from your own highly driven working stock bitch. And you got the NERVE to say you don't even "BELIEVE" in the validity of the CGC test BECAUSE YOUR dogs CONSISTENTLY FAIL TO PASS IT. AND THEN YOU DISCOVERED your BACKYARD BRED "STUD" WASN'T GENETICALLY HEALTHY and being the ETHICKAL BREEDER you are, you had to CONSULT your business partner who told you to give up on your backyard ETHICKAL BREEDER project seein as THEY GOT STUNG BIG TIME by you and your ignoramus shenanagains. Did you notify your "WORKING SHOW HOME" PUPPY CUSTOMERS?: From: Robin Nuttall Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 02:08:34 GMT Subject: Breeders suck... Shelly & The Boys wrote: Then another friend who recently had a litter had mentioned to me that she'd love to see one of her pups go to me. I would've LOVED to have a pup from her litter. However, for my next pup, I a) want a bitch and b) want to wait at least 4 years before acquiring another dog so that Bodhi gets all training & attention that he should. sigh All the work to get *into* the breed, but apparently once you're in, you're gold. :-) Yep, once good breeders figure out that not only do you give your dogs a great home, but you do actually work with them and title them, you pretty much walk on water. And if you're willing to keep a bitch intact for awhile, you are God. But I must admit that now that I'm going to spay Cala- -a mutual decision between myself and my co-owner after a rather major health problem showed up in her sire's line--that I'm looking forward to not having any new dogs for several years. Maybe it's because Cala is enough to turn anybody's hair gray! I plan to wait until she's at least 5 or 6 before thinking about another puppy. That will put Viva at 10 and probably near/at retirement, and Cala should be well settled in and hopefully we'll be a good team by then. That said, I've already got my eye on a potential breeding that should happen several years down the road... Robin Nuttall. Obviously this was a no-go. Seems your entire posted case history 'JUST SEZ NO!'. IN FACT, it rather makes you LOOK like a lying dog abusing punk thug coward as we've SEEN and we AIN'T EVEN GOT STARTED building your GALLOWS with your own written words, Robin. However, I found that a hard correction (P+) tended to ramp her up even higher. Why would you need to HURT a highly driven working dog force IT to do what he was SELECTIVELY BRED to do? Wouldn't you think that'd make your selective breeding program a MOCKERY and a HOAX, Robin? Or would you prefer to call it a CRUEL JOKE on all them puppy customers you STUNG by being a ETHICKAL BREEDER and breeding to a known dog aggressive "stud" (but that's IRRELEVENT as all temperament and behavior problems are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING not BREEDING) who just happend to turn out to have a CONGENITAL DISEASE that you OVERLOOKED in your ETHICKAL BREEDERS PROGRAM? Nice goin Golden Girl Goddess! She has a very high fight drive You mean she PAINICKS when you hurt and intimidate her. and will actively move into a physical correction. You mean she TRIES TO ATTACK you so you got to HANG HER like you done to that fear aggressive Irish Wolfhound in your "class" and jerked and choked IT like how you do your own fear aggressive hyperactive out of control factory DEFECTIVE bitches. And not only that, but P+ corrections actually put her even higher into drive, not something I want to happen in this case. INDEED? How did you determine that? So instead, I started simply taking her to her crate when she bit me. But of course: Jen wrote: "Robin Nuttall" wrote in message news:txeVe.324546$x96.272690@attbi_s72... Yep. Jen keeps saying, "Oh, I don't mean anything negative" while continuously slamming people for "cruel" methods that she can't even define. Those who slavishly devote themselves to one type of training and who condemn others are the poorer for it. I clicker train. I use choke collars. I shape behaviors. I use drive work for focus and intensity. I use pinch collars. I use harnesses. I use food. I use positive and negative punishment. Some of these things I use frenquently. Some very infrequently. I tend to focus my training in the quadrants of positive reinforcement and negative punishment, and am far more likely to eliminate undesired behavior through ignoring it than any other way. I'll also grab my young dog by the collar, lift her up on her back feet, and tell her to KNOCK IT OFF in no uncertain terms when the little snot gets into overdrive and bites me. If you want to discuss training, discuss it here. But be willing to listen as well as talk. And please stop top posting. Robn Nuttall. I was withdrawing her ability to TO BITE YOU. do a very highly reinforcing task--agility. Ummm, wasn't THAT what makes her BITE YOU? If this agility GAME is SO REINFORCING why can't you train her to do the tables and stop line and A frame and not attack you when you hurt her for being OBSTINATE and SKITZY in the ring? Further, I was doing it in a way that did not put her any higher in drive. You mean hyperactive oppositional and aggressive when you jerk choke shock ignore and withhold attention affection rewards trust and respect. She learned that biting/nipping resulted in the fun stuff stopping. You mean the jerking choking shocking and withholding. She spent enough time in the crate to safely come down out of drive, You mean she felt safe and could relax again. then I would take her out and we would do something simple Or she'd ATTACK you again. and praise for being in drive without being over the top. You mean you praise her for BEING HYPERACTIVE and NOT ATTACKING you again. Perhaps you should use PREY DRIVE as well? You got a volatile dog there. Better watch out your SHOCK COLLAR don't spark an explosion. I'd be PREYIN to the Golden Girl Goddess if I was you. It's been very effective. Do tell? From: Robin Nuttall Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 04:27:24 GMT Subject: If you HAD to re-home your dog(s)... Both my girls would go back to their co-owner. Viva, despite, or rather because, of her issues, could go to almost anyone who could give her a safe, calm environment. Because of her very bad early start, she has a real need to be bonded and have a human she can count on. Cala would be a different matter. She would need an experienced working home--someone who knows how to direct and channel drive without overuse of correction. A wimp would turn her into a frustrated and dangerous dog. Someone who wanted to throw their weight around and who was too heavy with corrections might also well end up with a dangerous dog--she's got way too much fight drive to back down if pushed. Fortunately my co-owner is smart and could probably find somewhere quite suitable for both of them. Robin Nuttall. Also, I think that the process of "withholding" a reward Withholding rewards can cause aggression, seizures, phobias of all sorts and OCD'S. "Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVERY LEARNING THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated how we escape the phenomenon that an expected reward not received is experienced as a punishment and can produce extensive and persistent aggression (Azrin et al, 1966)." that resulted in the decrease of a behavior Witholding rewards increases anxiety which would increase the behavior or cause the dog to throw mindless meaningless unthinking random behaviors to elicit the treat. "Postitive emotions arising in connection with the perfection of a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic significance at a given moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW, emotions, not outside rewards, are what reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov. would probably more accurately be accounted for by the *extinction* process. That's so confusing to me I don't see how a dog can figure it out especially when two or three of you can't agree on what's going on with all this alphabet soup. Extinction is best facilitated by increasing excitation or DRIVE and briefly alternately (e.g. randomly presented non physical) distracion instantly followed by prolonged (5-15 seconds) and intermittently thereafter non physical praise before the action is manifest and resume repeating the process till you've successively - successfully conditioned the subject's ability to NOT engage that THOUGHT through NON fulfillment It's EZ. Takes a little sense of timing, a confident gently tone, and consistent tempo, IOW, Pavlovian conditioning. Should take four repetitions with four different stimuli in four different environments to EXTINGUISH ANY BEHAVIOR. "...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation, inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov Here's a way I use P- in its classic sense. Is that P as in punishment praise or poo poo? Cala loves agility. Most dogs do. But your dogs "love it" because they're hyperactive and this vents their anxiety. How can you "compete" in agility if you got a dog aggressive bitch who won't even heel after a year and a half of jerking choking shocking bribing intimidating crating and ignoring???: From: "Robin Nuttall" Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:26:20 GMT Subject: Warning about Dog Trainer There are pullers, then there are PULLERS. Viva is one of the former, and has learned to walk very nicely on a loose leash. I'm convinced that Cala is genetically incapable of walking on a loose leash. She's almost 18 months old now, and we have been working on the issue since I first put a leash on her. She's so high drive that *nothing* I do is as reinforcing to her as pulling. I can stand still till I keel over--she just stands there at the end of the leash, pulling as hard as she can. I can do sneak aways until I am dizzy, we just get yo-yo effect ("okay, I'll pull THIS way now!). I can clicker her for loose leashes until my thumb falls off--and she still pulls. A click and treat is not as reinforcing as the world around her. Our only real solution at this point is the pinch collar, which keeps her from totally wearing me out, or hurting herself by actually flipping at the end of the leash. I have a feeling this is something that she will only develop with age, and will come regardless of any training I do or don't do. And yes, I've trained many, many dogs to walk on a loose leash, but not this one... Robin Nuttal. From: Robin Nuttall Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 00:29:21 GMT Subject: Doggie temperament test Suja wrote: Robin Nuttall wrote: Oh My. Whoever thought of this thing is an idiot. Many of the STOP TEST AGGRESSIVE DOG responses are exactly the responses you want to have in a high drive, active, curious dog. I got so many of those (pretty much all that way) for Cala that I stopped taking the test. And she's not aggressive. Well, I don't agree with that stupid test at all, but Cala isn't what I'd call a Newbie dog, is she? Nope. She's not. She's bred to her working heritage. But that test doesn't talk about any of that. It just makes blanket statements. And FWIW, I full well realize the responsibility I took on in breeding the litter I did, with the type of working temperament I was looking for, and got. Heck no, she's not a beginner dog, but I would never have placed any dog out of this litter with a beginner owner. Robin Nuttall. BWEEEEEEAAAHAHAHHHAHAAAA!!!!! |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Sorry....geez!
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Oh, geez... | Kevin Michael Vail | Dog behavior | 61 | December 18th 03 03:13 AM |
Oh, geez... | Kevin Michael Vail | Dog behavior | 0 | December 16th 03 01:22 AM |
Oh, geez... | Kevin Michael Vail | Dog behavior | 0 | December 16th 03 01:22 AM |