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Old July 24th 06, 03:26 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.breeds,alt.animals.dog,rec.pets.dogs.activities,rec.pets.dogs.behavior,rec.pets.dogs.misc
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Posts: 7
Default Sorry....geez!


"Robin Nuttall" wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s71...

Ok, I'm new here and didn't know you couldn't sell dogs on here.

SHORE you can. You and everyWON else does it.

I had the ad for the doberman pinschers. So, for everyone
that was rude and got mad...I'm sorry!

She don't have to apologize to you mental cases for
COMPETIN with you for PUPPY SALES {}; ~ )

And FYI, it is a friend that has the dogs not me!

The mental cases don't believe that.

I don't know why she bred them but I'm just trying to help her out.
I now know not to post here cause you guys can be really rude!

We don't have warm fuzzies for people like your so-called friend,

You mean ethical breeders.

who breed dogs even though there are huge numbers of dogs in rescue.

You got your own little PUPPY MILL goin. REMEMBER robin?

Yes, even purebreds, yes, even Dobermans.

Like you got. And didn't you get a Min Pin to breed, to boot?

Dobermans are plagued with a host of very serious genetic diseases,

That's a load of crap robin.

so finding somebody breeding them with no thought or
clue about that is maddening for those of us who actually
care about the breed.


From: Robin Nuttall
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 16:01:45 GMT

Subject: Shock and awe

shelly wrote:
In ,
Robin Nuttall typed:

My dogs don't get to make discipline decisions.
My dogs get to be nice with other dogs, period.
If they're not nice, they stay on lead until
they can learn to be nice.

exactly. that goes for being the Dog Police and for being
obnoxious brats who pick on other dogs. i don't tolerate
either of those behaviors within my own pack or between my
two and other dogs.

This is something I'm acutely attuned to.

Part of it is owning Dobermans, who have a bad rep anyway.
Part of it is that I know for a fact that my puppy's sire
is profoundly dog aggressive.

It was the one thing I did NOT like about using him,
and the plusses outweighed the minuses.

But I watch Cala like a hawk. Being able to go to
offlead parks has actually helped, as she's gotten to
meet a large number of dogs of all shapes and sizes.

But our dog park is different than many in that it's a
huge area with trails cut through brush--mob mentality
doesn't often come into it.

Robin Nuttall.

Namely she would sometimes get too excited,

And bite you:

From: "Robin Nuttall"
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 04:00:43 GMT
Subject: Does your dog do this?

"Andrea" wrote in message

The "sorry" look and licking is appeasment behavior.
Dogs to it to avoid retribution, not because they
really understand how to apologize. Really, you
should just teach her some bite inhibition so that
you don't get hurt, and she doesn't have to worry.

I totally agree, but with some dogs that's far
easier said than done.

Cala is finally showing signs of trying to keep
her teeth to herself, and it's been a constant
battle since she was a baby puppy. She's now 17
months old.

I have often been a total mass of bruises from
her releasing overdrive into a nip. Not that
she's ever full-out bitten me, but trust me,
those nips and pinches can be extremely painful.

The higher drive the dog is, the more difficult
it can be to deal with the issue. Robin Nuttall.

go over the top and vent drive by biting/nipping at me.

Because you are withholding treats choking shocking
intimidating and crating your highly driven working
dogs as per you posted case history which I've spent
the past couple of hours (maybe ten or so...) just
researching your ETHICKAL BREEDING program
and your high drive backyard bred genetically DEFECTIVE
"working dogs" which you'll ONLY SELL to show homes.

Interesting, compelling, sickening stuff, every bit of it.
You should be TOO ASHAMED to post here ever again.
I had to force myself to quit with only the tip of the iceberg
uncovered thus far reading only posts mentioning your dog Carla.

I had no idea you were a backyard breeder too!

You even bred your DEFECTIVE back yard bred bitch
to a DOG AGGRESSIVE sire to get the "QUALITIES"
you wanted, yet you still couldn't train Carla to come
or heel by 18 months of age, nor PASS the CGC!!!
despite having bred her from your own highly driven
working stock bitch.

And you got the NERVE to say you don't even "BELIEVE"
in the validity of the CGC test BECAUSE YOUR dogs

ETHICKAL BREEDER you are, you had to CONSULT your
business partner who told you to give up on your backyard
BIG TIME by you and your ignoramus shenanagains.


From: Robin Nuttall
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 02:08:34 GMT
Subject: Breeders suck...
Shelly & The Boys wrote:

Then another friend who recently had a litter had
mentioned to me that she'd love to see one of her
pups go to me. I would've LOVED to have a pup
from her litter. However, for my next pup, I a)
want a bitch and b) want to wait at least 4 years
before acquiring another dog so that Bodhi gets
all training & attention that he should.

sigh All the work to get *into* the breed,
but apparently once you're in, you're gold. :-)

Yep, once good breeders figure out that not only
do you give your dogs a great home, but you do
actually work with them and title them, you pretty
much walk on water.

And if you're willing to keep a bitch
intact for awhile, you are God.

But I must admit that now that I'm going to spay Cala-
-a mutual decision between myself and my co-owner after
a rather major health problem showed up in her sire's
line--that I'm looking forward to not having any new
dogs for several years.

Maybe it's because Cala is enough to turn anybody's hair gray!

I plan to wait until she's at least 5 or 6 before
thinking about another puppy. That will put Viva
at 10 and probably near/at retirement, and Cala
should be well settled in and hopefully we'll be
a good team by then.

That said, I've already got my eye on a potential
breeding that should happen several years down the
road... Robin Nuttall.

Obviously this was a no-go.

Seems your entire posted case history 'JUST SEZ NO!'.

IN FACT, it rather makes you LOOK like a lying
dog abusing punk thug coward as we've SEEN and
with your own written words, Robin.

However, I found that a hard correction (P+)
tended to ramp her up even higher.

Why would you need to HURT a highly driven working
dog force IT to do what he was SELECTIVELY BRED to
do? Wouldn't you think that'd make your selective
breeding program a MOCKERY and a HOAX, Robin?

Or would you prefer to call it a CRUEL JOKE
on all them puppy customers you STUNG by being
a ETHICKAL BREEDER and breeding to a known dog
aggressive "stud" (but that's IRRELEVENT as all
temperament and behavior problems are CAUSED
BY MISHANDLING not BREEDING) who just happend
to turn out to have a CONGENITAL DISEASE that

Nice goin Golden Girl Goddess!

She has a very high fight drive

You mean she PAINICKS when you hurt and intimidate her.

and will actively move into a physical correction.

You mean she TRIES TO ATTACK you so you got to HANG
HER like you done to that fear aggressive Irish Wolfhound
in your "class" and jerked and choked IT like how you
do your own fear aggressive hyperactive out of control
factory DEFECTIVE bitches.

And not only that, but P+ corrections actually put
her even higher into drive, not something I want
to happen in this case.

INDEED? How did you determine that?

So instead, I started simply taking her
to her crate when she bit me.

But of course:

Jen wrote:
"Robin Nuttall" wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s72...

Yep. Jen keeps saying, "Oh, I don't mean anything
negative" while continuously slamming people for
"cruel" methods that she can't even define.

Those who slavishly devote themselves to one type of
training and who condemn others are the poorer for it.

I clicker train. I use choke collars. I shape behaviors.
I use drive work for focus and intensity. I use pinch
collars. I use harnesses. I use food. I use positive
and negative punishment.

Some of these things I use frenquently. Some very
infrequently. I tend to focus my training in the
quadrants of positive reinforcement and negative
punishment, and am far more likely to eliminate
undesired behavior through ignoring it than any
other way.

I'll also grab my young dog by the collar, lift
her up on her back feet, and tell her to KNOCK
IT OFF in no uncertain terms when the little snot
gets into overdrive and bites me.

If you want to discuss training, discuss it here.
But be willing to listen as well as talk. And
please stop top posting. Robn Nuttall.

I was withdrawing her ability to


do a very highly reinforcing task--agility.

Ummm, wasn't THAT what makes her BITE YOU?

If this agility GAME is SO REINFORCING why can't
you train her to do the tables and stop line and
A frame and not attack you when you hurt her for
being OBSTINATE and SKITZY in the ring?

Further, I was doing it in a way that did
not put her any higher in drive.

You mean hyperactive oppositional and aggressive
when you jerk choke shock ignore and withhold
attention affection rewards trust and respect.

She learned that biting/nipping resulted
in the fun stuff stopping.

You mean the jerking choking shocking and withholding.

She spent enough time in the crate to
safely come down out of drive,

You mean she felt safe and could relax again.

then I would take her out and we would do something simple

Or she'd ATTACK you again.

and praise for being in drive without being over the top.

You mean you praise her for BEING HYPERACTIVE and
NOT ATTACKING you again. Perhaps you should use PREY
DRIVE as well?

You got a volatile dog there. Better watch out
your SHOCK COLLAR don't spark an explosion. I'd
be PREYIN to the Golden Girl Goddess if I was you.

It's been very effective.

Do tell?

From: Robin Nuttall
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 04:27:24 GMT
Subject: If you HAD to re-home your dog(s)...

Both my girls would go back to their co-owner.

Viva, despite, or rather because, of her issues,
could go to almost anyone who could give her a
safe, calm environment.

Because of her very bad early start, she has a
real need to be bonded and have a human she can
count on.

Cala would be a different matter. She would need
an experienced working home--someone who knows
how to direct and channel drive without overuse
of correction.

A wimp would turn her into a frustrated and dangerous
dog. Someone who wanted to throw their weight around
and who was too heavy with corrections might also well
end up with a dangerous dog--she's got way too much
fight drive to back down if pushed.

Fortunately my co-owner is smart and could probably
find somewhere quite suitable for both of them.
Robin Nuttall.

Also, I think that the process of "withholding" a reward

Withholding rewards can cause aggression,
seizures, phobias of all sorts and OCD'S.

"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVERY LEARNING THEORY
model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse,
Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
how we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."

that resulted in the decrease of a behavior

Witholding rewards increases anxiety which would
increase the behavior or cause the dog to throw
mindless meaningless unthinking random behaviors
to elicit the treat.

"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.

would probably more accurately be accounted
for by the *extinction* process.

That's so confusing to me I don't see how a dog
can figure it out especially when two or three
of you can't agree on what's going on with all
this alphabet soup.

Extinction is best facilitated by increasing
excitation or DRIVE and briefly alternately
(e.g. randomly presented non physical) distracion
instantly followed by prolonged (5-15 seconds)
and intermittently thereafter non physical praise
before the action is manifest and resume repeating
the process till you've successively - successfully
conditioned the subject's ability to NOT engage that
THOUGHT through NON fulfillment

It's EZ. Takes a little sense of timing, a confident
gently tone, and consistent tempo, IOW, Pavlovian

Should take four repetitions with four different
stimuli in four different environments to EXTINGUISH

"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov

Here's a way I use P- in its classic sense.

Is that P as in punishment praise or poo poo?

Cala loves agility.

Most dogs do. But your dogs "love it" because
they're hyperactive and this vents their anxiety.
How can you "compete" in agility if you got a
dog aggressive bitch who won't even heel after
a year and a half of jerking choking shocking
bribing intimidating crating and ignoring???:

From: "Robin Nuttall"
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:26:20 GMT
Subject: Warning about Dog Trainer

There are pullers, then there are PULLERS. Viva
is one of the former, and has learned to walk
very nicely on a loose leash. I'm convinced that
Cala is genetically incapable of walking on a
loose leash.

She's almost 18 months old now, and we have been
working on the issue since I first put a leash on
her. She's so high drive that *nothing* I do is
as reinforcing to her as pulling. I can stand still
till I keel over--she just stands there at the end
of the leash, pulling as hard as she can. I can do
sneak aways until I am dizzy, we just get yo-yo
effect ("okay, I'll pull THIS way now!).

I can clicker her for loose leashes until my thumb
falls off--and she still pulls.

A click and treat is not as reinforcing as the world
around her. Our only real solution at this point is
the pinch collar, which keeps her from totally wearing
me out, or hurting herself by actually flipping at the
end of the leash.

I have a feeling this is something that she will
only develop with age, and will come regardless
of any training I do or don't do.

And yes, I've trained many, many dogs to walk on
a loose leash, but not this one... Robin Nuttal.

From: Robin Nuttall
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 00:29:21 GMT

Subject: Doggie temperament test

Suja wrote:
Robin Nuttall wrote:

Oh My. Whoever thought of this thing is an idiot.
Many of the STOP TEST AGGRESSIVE DOG responses are
exactly the responses you want to have in a high
drive, active, curious dog. I got so many of those
(pretty much all that way) for Cala that I stopped
taking the test. And she's not aggressive.

Well, I don't agree with that stupid test at all,
but Cala isn't what I'd call a Newbie dog, is she?

Nope. She's not. She's bred to her working heritage.
But that test doesn't talk about any of that. It
just makes blanket statements.

And FWIW, I full well realize the responsibility I
took on in breeding the litter I did, with the type
of working temperament I was looking for, and got.

Heck no, she's not a beginner dog, but I would never
have placed any dog out of this litter with a beginner
owner. Robin Nuttall.



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