I had a stressful weekend. Friday afternoon I got a call from a
shelter in another state, that they had picked up a dog with one
of my microchips. They figured right off the bat that I was the
breeder (incorrect) and not the current owner (correct). They let
me know, emphatically, that they would not release her to me.
They would give her owner a week to show up, after which they
would decide whether to euthanize her or put her up for adoption.
I would be free to apply to adopt her if they chose not to
euthanize.

I had to look in my records to find what dog it was. The person
I sold her to was gone for the weekend and didn't call back until
Sunday. I learned from him that she had passed through the hands
of at least two other people. He gave me the name of the first one,
and I called Sunday night and left a message. I called Monday
morning and left another message.

In the end the dog was collected by her owner, or someone in the
chain, anyway. I spent three anxious days, however, not knowing
whether I would succeed in getting to the current owner in time,
and not knowing if they would care enough to go get her--and if
I failed or they didn't, would the shelter choose to kill her rather
than release her to me.

They couldn't tell me of any proof of ownership they would require,
just that I wouldn't qualify.

I would like to try to work out a way to prevent this from happening
with future dogs. I would like to hear from anyone who is involved
with shelters, especially in policy making. If I wrote a sales contract

that included explicit authorization for me to act as agent for the
buyer
in recovering a dog from a shelter or, in a more extreme form, that
said ownership would revert to me if the dog's chip were not
registered to the new owner and the dog wound up in a shelter, would
shelters be inclined to respect that and release the dog to me?

Is it unusual to consider euthanizing a dog when someone acquainted
with the dog expresses a desire to "adopt" it? Or only when the
person is believed to be the breeder?

Would it be a mistake to tell the shelter staff that the dog is a
valuable, trained and titled hunting dog?

TIA,

Amy Dahl

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 02:02:13 GMT, Amy Dahl
wrote:

I had a stressful weekend. Friday afternoon I got a call from a
shelter in another state, that they had picked up a dog with one
of my microchips. They figured right off the bat that I was the
breeder (incorrect) and not the current owner (correct). They let
me know, emphatically, that they would not release her to me.

Amy, I don't understand. Were you the breeder?

I can only guess that this "shelter" was, as I like to say, part of
the problem, not the solution. Some rescues/shelters (the stupidest
of the stupid) won't release a dog to a breeder because they blame
breeders for the problem of pet "over population." And some won't do
it because they think you're going to sell the dog again, and make
another "obscene" profit on the dog. That is, they're concerned more
about you making a profit than they are about the life of the dog.

Question: Did you offer to make a donation to the shelter?

They would give her owner a week to show up, after which they
would decide whether to euthanize her or put her up for adoption.
I would be free to apply to adopt her if they chose not to
euthanize.

boggle

I had to look in my records to find what dog it was. The person
I sold her to was gone for the weekend and didn't call back until
Sunday.

Then you *were* the breeder? And the shelter was correct, when it
"figured right off that you were the breeder"?

I learned from him that she had passed through the hands
of at least two other people. He gave me the name of the first one,
and I called Sunday night and left a message. I called Monday
morning and left another message.

In the end the dog was collected by her owner, or someone in the
chain, anyway.

How did the owner manage to convince the "shelter" that he was in fact
the owner?

How did the shelter get its hands on the dog?

I spent three anxious days, however, not knowing
whether I would succeed in getting to the current owner in time,
and not knowing if they would care enough to go get her--and if
I failed or they didn't, would the shelter choose to kill her rather
than release her to me.

You could, of course, include such language in your contract, but
whether it would be legally enforceable in another state is debatable.

They couldn't tell me of any proof of ownership they would require,
just that I wouldn't qualify.

Simply because you were the breeder?

I would like to try to work out a way to prevent this from happening
with future dogs. I would like to hear from anyone who is involved
with shelters, especially in policy making. If I wrote a sales contract
that included explicit authorization for me to act as agent for the
buyer
in recovering a dog from a shelter or, in a more extreme form, that
said ownership would revert to me if the dog's chip were not
registered to the new owner and the dog wound up in a shelter, would
shelters be inclined to respect that and release the dog to me?

I only work with shelters who have a clue. That is, they never lose
sight of what their mission is -- to find decent (note that I didn't
say ideal) homes for dogs who might otherwise be killed.

Is it unusual to consider euthanizing a dog when someone acquainted
with the dog expresses a desire to "adopt" it? Or only when the
person is believed to be the breeder?

There are just soooo many people working in "shelters" and "rescues"
today who really shouldn't be.

But to answer your questions...no and yes.

"Stupid is as stupid does."

Would it be a mistake to tell the shelter staff that the dog is a
valuable, trained and titled hunting dog?

Who knows how to reliably predict what stupid people will do?

I know that I can't.

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

The Left's broken moral compass:
http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2006/07...ight-line.html

"Suppose this were true - that terrorists blew up Oz honeymooners and
Scandinavian stoners in Balinese nightclubs because of "the Palestinian question."
Doesn’t this suggest that these people are, at a certain level, nuts?"

"There haven’t been any Zionists anywhere near Damascus in 60 years and Syria is in
effect Iran’s first Sunni Arab prison bitch."

"So what is in reality Israel's first non-Arab war is a glimpse of the world the day
after tomorrow: The EU and Arab League won't quite spell it out, but, to modify that
Le Monde headline, they are all Jews now."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?B3A65237D

I stand with Israel.
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005547.htm

Two books that every American (and Canadian) *must* read:

1) The Rage and The Pride, by Orianna Fallaci
http://makeashorterlink.com/?J13521A6D

2) The Force of Reason, by Orianna Fallaci
http://makeashorterlink.com/?T42552A6D

While they still can.

Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:

Amy, I don't understand. Were you the breeder?

No. I bought the dog as a puppy, and microchipped her when I had
her hips evaluated shortly after her 2nd birthday. Not long after,
John and I decided that she wasn't going to make a field trial dog
and didn't meet our criteria for a brood bitch, so we sold her to a
guy who wanted to run her in hunt tests.


I can only guess that this "shelter" was, as I like to say, part of
the problem, not the solution. Some rescues/shelters (the stupidest
of the stupid) won't release a dog to a breeder because they blame
breeders for the problem of pet "over population." And some won't do
it because they think you're going to sell the dog again, and make
another "obscene" profit on the dog. That is, they're concerned more
about you making a profit than they are about the life of the dog.

She was a valuable dog, with an excellent pedigree, OFA Excellent,
CERF, Master Hunter, experienced hunting dog, etc. Having sold
her once, however, my interest was to get her safely out of there
while trying to track down her owner or, if he didn't want her, find
her another home.

Question: Did you offer to make a donation to the shelter?

No, I didn't think of it. In retrospect, I think it would have been
pretty transparent. Or is it OK to be transparent? And how much
of a donation does it take to impress shelter staff?

I had to look in my records to find what dog it was. The person
I sold her to was gone for the weekend and didn't call back until
Sunday.

Then you *were* the breeder? And the shelter was correct, when it
"figured right off that you were the breeder"?

No, as I explained. I wonder if AVID (chip maker) told the shelter
people that the chip I used was part of a breeder kit, though.

I learned from him that she had passed through the hands
of at least two other people. He gave me the name of the first one,
and I called Sunday night and left a message. I called Monday
morning and left another message.

In the end the dog was collected by her owner, or someone in the
chain, anyway.

How did the owner manage to convince the "shelter" that he was in fact
the owner?

Don't know. I asked them, when they emphatically told me I could not
collect the dog, what the current owner could do or would have to do
to establish his claim. They were vague, even though I rephrased the
question at least three times. Later, on their phone message deal, I
heard a recording that the owner had to offer proof of ownership, proof
of rabies vaccination, and proof of license.

I never talked to the guy who picked her up. I wanted to follow this
thing through to the end, but the previous person in the chain
wouldn't give me his number, choosing to call him instead. She
told me he jumped in the car and headed straight to the shelter.
He was not the actual current owner (both he and the person above
him in the chain expressed doubts about that person based on the
dog's being in the shelter), but when I called the shelter later they
said they had released the dog to him.

I get a strong impression that the standard of proof required of anyone
else is not the same as the standard required of the person who
microchipped the dog. Of course my current dogs have my microchips
in them, and they ARE my dogs. And I naively thought a microchip
was useful in establishing ownership.

How did the shelter get its hands on the dog?

They didn't say. They weren't at all friendly, so, although I was
curious, I didn't bug them with questions that didn't pertain to getting
her out of there.


They couldn't tell me of any proof of ownership they would require,
just that I wouldn't qualify.

Simply because you were the breeder?

They didn't say that specifically. I suspect that they thought I was
lying about not being the breeder, so that was the reason, but they
didn't say it because I had denied being the breeder. Which I'm
not.

I think this is the same shelter where a dog of my breeding wound
up a few years ago, and at that time they made it clear they *would*
euthanize before returning a dog to its breeder. That time, the dog
had not changed hands. I called his owner, who picked him up. It
was kinda stupid: he lived near the county line, and checked his
county's shelter, but didn't think to check the other county, which is
where his dog was picked up.

I only work with shelters who have a clue. That is, they never lose
sight of what their mission is -- to find decent (note that I didn't
say ideal) homes for dogs who might otherwise be killed.

I need to get new microchips that say, "if found, please take only
to a shelter that has a clue."


"Stupid is as stupid does."


Isn't it, though.

Amy Dahl

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 16:50:59 GMT, Amy Dahl
wrote:

Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:

Amy, I don't understand. Were you the breeder?

No. I bought the dog as a puppy, and microchipped her when I had
her hips evaluated shortly after her 2nd birthday. Not long after,
John and I decided that she wasn't going to make a field trial dog
and didn't meet our criteria for a brood bitch, so we sold her to a
guy who wanted to run her in hunt tests.

Apparently he didn't register her...

I can only guess that this "shelter" was, as I like to say, part of
the problem, not the solution. Some rescues/shelters (the stupidest
of the stupid) won't release a dog to a breeder because they blame
breeders for the problem of pet "over population." And some won't do
it because they think you're going to sell the dog again, and make
another "obscene" profit on the dog. That is, they're concerned more
about you making a profit than they are about the life of the dog.

She was a valuable dog, with an excellent pedigree, OFA Excellent,
CERF, Master Hunter, experienced hunting dog, etc. Having sold
her once, however, my interest was to get her safely out of there
while trying to track down her owner or, if he didn't want her, find
her another home.

Just think about that, folks.

Here we have a fabulously well-trained dog, and these "shelter" folks
said that this dog might have to be "euthanized," because they
couldn't find the dog's owner (and the clock was
ticking...tic...toc...), just the dog's breeder, who volunteered to
take him and/or find the current owner.

Now, tell me again, why many shelters and rescues aren't part of the
problem?

Question: Did you offer to make a donation to the shelter?

No, I didn't think of it. In retrospect, I think it would have been
pretty transparent. Or is it OK to be transparent?

I prefer the word "blunt."

And how much
of a donation does it take to impress shelter staff?

About what they charge to place a dog with anyone else.

I had to look in my records to find what dog it was. The person
I sold her to was gone for the weekend and didn't call back until
Sunday.

Then you *were* the breeder? And the shelter was correct, when it
"figured right off that you were the breeder"?

No, as I explained. I wonder if AVID (chip maker) told the shelter
people that the chip I used was part of a breeder kit, though.

That shouldn't matter. The subsequent owners apparently didn't
register themselves. They just assumed you were the one who placed
the chip in the dog, e.g., the vet, the breeder.

I learned from him that she had passed through the hands
of at least two other people. He gave me the name of the first one,
and I called Sunday night and left a message. I called Monday
morning and left another message.

In the end the dog was collected by her owner, or someone in the
chain, anyway.

How did the owner manage to convince the "shelter" that he was in fact
the owner?

Don't know. I asked them, when they emphatically told me I could not
collect the dog, what the current owner could do or would have to do
to establish his claim. They were vague, even though I rephrased the
question at least three times. Later, on their phone message deal, I
heard a recording that the owner had to offer proof of ownership, proof
of rabies vaccination, and proof of license.

I never talked to the guy who picked her up. I wanted to follow this
thing through to the end, but the previous person in the chain
wouldn't give me his number, choosing to call him instead.

I'd call that guy back and ask him to remind the other guy that he
needed to register himself if he wanted to be the party called.

http://www.avidmicrochip.com/answer.htm#15

I just can't imagine why this guy wouldn't give the dog's breeder a
contact number, or agree to have him call you.

Sound a little fishy to you?

She told me he jumped in the car and headed straight to the shelter.
He was not the actual current owner (both he and the person above
him in the chain expressed doubts about that person based on the
dog's being in the shelter), but when I called the shelter later they
said they had released the dog to him.

So they released the dog to someone who was clearly not the dog's
current owner, but they wouldn't release it to you, the dog's breeder?

sigh

One can only imagine how this guy was able to provide proof of
ownership.

I get a strong impression that the standard of proof required of anyone
else is not the same as the standard required of the person who
microchipped the dog. Of course my current dogs have my microchips
in them, and they ARE my dogs. And I naively thought a microchip
was useful in establishing ownership.

Not really. Unless someone registers, it only identifies who placed
the chip in the dog. The assumption is, that the vet or breeder will
have a record of who the dog's owner is.

How did the shelter get its hands on the dog?

They didn't say. They weren't at all friendly, so, although I was
curious, I didn't bug them with questions that didn't pertain to getting
her out of there.

I guess it's safe to say that I would have acted a bit differently...

They couldn't tell me of any proof of ownership they would require,
just that I wouldn't qualify.

Simply because you were the breeder?

They didn't say that specifically. I suspect that they thought I was
lying about not being the breeder, so that was the reason, but they
didn't say it because I had denied being the breeder. Which I'm
not.

I think this is the same shelter where a dog of my breeding wound
up a few years ago, and at that time they made it clear they *would*
euthanize before returning a dog to its breeder.

Haven't you talked to them about that? What I mean by that is, to go
straight to the top, not to just deal with some temporary or part-time
buffoon...er...helper.

That time, the dog
had not changed hands. I called his owner, who picked him up. It
was kinda stupid: he lived near the county line, and checked his
county's shelter, but didn't think to check the other county, which is
where his dog was picked up.

sigh

I only work with shelters who have a clue. That is, they never lose
sight of what their mission is -- to find decent (note that I didn't
say ideal) homes for dogs who might otherwise be killed.

I need to get new microchips that say, "if found, please take only
to a shelter that has a clue."

My chips say: "If this dog somehow falls into your possession, and you
decide to kill it without returning it to me or the dog's owner, I
will know it, and then I will personally hunt you down and slit your
throat."

Works for me.

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

"I love you too
But I will never be yours
I’m a rebel
A loner
I’m bad news, baby
And you don’t want me inside you
Because once you go Omar, you’ll never go kuffar"
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk..._you_too_.html

The Left's broken moral compass:
http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2006/07...ight-line.html

"Suppose this were true - that terrorists blew up Oz honeymooners and
Scandinavian stoners in Balinese nightclubs because of "the Palestinian question."
Doesn’t this suggest that these people are, at a certain level, nuts?"

"There haven’t been any Zionists anywhere near Damascus in 60 years and Syria is in
effect Iran’s first Sunni Arab prison bitch."

"So what is in reality Israel's first non-Arab war is a glimpse of the world the day
after tomorrow: The EU and Arab League won't quite spell it out, but, to modify that
Le Monde headline, they are all Jews now."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?B3A65237D

I stand with Israel.
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005547.htm

Two books that every American (and Canadian) *must* read:

1) The Rage and The Pride, by Orianna Fallaci
http://makeashorterlink.com/?J13521A6D

2) The Force of Reason, by Orianna Fallaci
http://makeashorterlink.com/?T42552A6D

While they still can.

Amy, I believe you said you were not the breeder right? Just the owner
at one time.
I am sorry I don't have any specific answers. I just know from
dealing with shelters as a citizen that sometimes it is the "luck of the
draw" when you make a call or even go there. In other words if someone
else there had answered the phone it may have been a whole different
scenario. I have dealt with the brightest and most dedicated and the
most ignorant and rude. However, that is true of any public
interactions for example the phone co. bank, etc. You call ask a ?,
hang up and call back get someone else and get a totally different
answer. I know this is of no help to you as it is all resolved now. I
also don't know how much spare time you have but I would pursue it to
find out just what exactly is their policy and why? Ya never know how
many lives you could save....if it was just one dim wit on a power trip
perhaps that shelter could end up with one less dim wit. Ya know?
I am scheduled to have Jack neutered at the shelter. They also put in
a chip. He has already has his shots. He is passing thru I hope. He
is a Pit Bull that I rescued. He is about 2 years old..Ok, this is my
concern, let's say I am fortunate enough to find him a home. They do
not register him. He does harm. How could I prove he was not my dog?
I could see it turning ugly.
BTW was the dog in question spayed or neutered, just curious?
I will be interested to hear if you get any info from the shelter and
why their behavior was so stupid. You would think they would be dying
to have some one claim him....any one??? Another nosey question which
you will probably never find an answer to why was she passed thru so
many owners?
Anyway, Good Luck, with whatever info you get....
Judy

Be Free,
Judy

Drat, Amy. There are a couple of unknowns about the shelter that make
a difference.
Was it a public pound or a private non-profit rescue group shelter?
Sometimes the private ones will set policies that reflect agendas that
have nothing at all to do with ownership. Like assuming anyone who
ever sold a dog is a puppymill and should never be able to take a dog
from them. There's also questions about the laws governing shelters in
that state. Some, like CA, have legislated hold periods before an
animal can be released to anyone other than the owner. (or the other
CA state law that would have required the dog be spayed before release
to you) Ownership is usually proven by license. In lieu of that, some
shelters will accept photos and/or vet bills. Both public and private
shelters can have rules about limiting adoptions to residents of their
srevice areas.

I'd think that a clause in your sales contract requiring right of
refusal before a dog can be transferred to a 3rd party would be
sufficient.

Lynn K.

Judith Althouse wrote:

BTW was the dog in question spayed or neutered, just curious?

I don't think so. She didn't meet our criteria for a brood bitch, but
was very smart, an all-around good retriever, MH titled, OFA Excellent,
with sound temperament and an exceptional pedigree, and many
would have considered her a breeding candidate.

Another nosey question which
you will probably never find an answer to why was she passed thru so
many owners?


I am a professional retriever trainer. When I raise a puppy, I am hoping
it will be competitive in retriever field trials (an extremely competitive
area of dog sport). It can take months or years to determine how strong
a prospect a dog is. Then I may put the dog in the hands of a
customer, who will pay me to continue the dog's training and campaign
it, or I could campaign it in my own name. If it's a bitch, there's also
a chance that we might regard it as a prospect for breeding really good
puppies, whether it is competitive or not.

If a dog "washes out" or fails to meet our expectations, we get rid of it.
Usually our washouts are in demand as hunting dogs, because most
hunters don't get dogs with as much native ability nor train them
anywhere near as well. So we sell them. I'll just mention that the
sale price usually about covers the puppy purchase price, and doesn't
come anywhere close to the equivalent cost of training plus vet care,
birds and other supplies. For anybody looking to get a hunting
retriever, field trial washouts are the best bargain in the business.

So we sold her. The guy who bought her was active in retriever
hunting tests, campaigned her and got her Senior Hunter and
Master Hunter titles. He did a lot of hunting with her. He also
bred her once. He changed jobs and realized he didn't have time
to train and do justice to a working dog.

He sold her to another pro trainer who does a fair amount of
breeding, as a prospective brood bitch. She passed her on to a
friend of a friend who wanted a hunting dog. I think she may have
retained the registration so that she could breed the dog in the
off-season. I know of some breeders who do this. Their bitches
live with families and get trained and go hunting, instead of
being kept in a kennel with limited attention. But I don't know
if that's what the arrangement was in this case.

Apparently the guy really likes her. They did a lot of hunting and
I'm told she retrieved over 600 birds last season.

That's what I learned when at last my calls were answered. I don't
know how she happened to get into the shelter, and I haven't asked.

Amy Dahl

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 14:54:23 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:

So they released the dog to someone who was clearly not the dog's
current owner, but they wouldn't release it to you, the dog's breeder?

It's even more stupid. They released the dog to someone who was
clearly not the current owner, but was a former owner, but they
wouldn't release it to Amy, who also was not the breeder and was a
former owner.

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 21:55:28 GMT, Paula
wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 14:54:23 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:

So they released the dog to someone who was clearly not the dog's
current owner, but they wouldn't release it to you, the dog's breeder?

It's even more stupid. They released the dog to someone who was
clearly not the current owner, but was a former owner, but they
wouldn't release it to Amy, who also was not the breeder and was a
former owner.

"Today we are all [former owners]."

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

Chomsky's New Blood Libel:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=23543

The Left's broken moral compass:
http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2006/07...ight-line.html

"Suppose this were true - that terrorists blew up Oz honeymooners and
Scandinavian stoners in Balinese nightclubs because of "the Palestinian question."
Doesn’t this suggest that these people are, at a certain level, nuts?"

"There haven’t been any Zionists anywhere near Damascus in 60 years and Syria is in
effect Iran’s first Sunni Arab prison bitch."

"So what is in reality Israel's first non-Arab war is a glimpse of the world the day
after tomorrow: The EU and Arab League won't quite spell it out, but, to modify that
Le Monde headline, they are all Jews now."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?B3A65237D

I stand with Israel.
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005547.htm

Two books that every American (and Canadian) *must* read:

1) The Rage and The Pride, by Orianna Fallaci
http://makeashorterlink.com/?J13521A6D

2) The Force of Reason, by Orianna Fallaci
http://makeashorterlink.com/?T42552A6D

While they still can.

wrote:

Drat, Amy. There are a couple of unknowns about the shelter that make
a difference.
Was it a public pound or a private non-profit rescue group shelter?

I got the impression it is a public pound, but am not positive.

There are so many ways a dog can get out and end up in a shelter.
Dog stolen, truck stolen with dog in it, house burgled and doors
left open, dog lost while hunting, dog left with friends or neighbors
and escapes, contractors or trespassers leave gate open, etc. In my
ideal world, shelters would respect ownership and their first priority
would be getting dogs back to their owners.

When I was a kid, we had a Siberian husky. She eluded us and went
out for a run, probably several times a year. We had to pay fines at the
pound, but they always called us. They gave my parents some grief
as she would sometimes go worry some guy's chickens, but there was
never any question of lording it over us that they had possession and
could do whatever they wanted.

I guess things are different now, or at least they are in Maryland.
IMO what we need is more tolerance and less judgmentalism, but
we seem to be going in the other direction.

Amy Dahl