Expression of white in an elkhound.

I know of a breeder who had an elkhound puppy born with big splashes of
white on the throat and neck/chest area as well as legs that have white to
above the knee. Neither parents have more than a couple toes, or small
chest patch of white, and would like to know what genetics is behind
creating a paint bucket puppy (so this can be avoided in the future)

diddy wrote in
:

Expression of white in an elkhound.
I know of a breeder who had an elkhound puppy born with big splashes
of white on the throat and neck/chest area as well as legs that have
white to above the knee. Neither parents have more than a couple toes,
or small chest patch of white, and would like to know what genetics is
behind creating a paint bucket puppy (so this can be avoided in the
future)

I haven't seen more than tiny white spots on chest or toes on this breed,
and I haven't heard of any other mismarks than some minor stuff like "too
dark" or "not enough black masking on muzzle" - but then I'm not a hunter
and so I don't personally know any breeders or owners of that breed.

Two or perhaps three possibilities come to my mind.

1. The description sounds like irish spotting, and the mode of inheritance
fits: totally recessive to normal solid. If this was irish, there is no
other way to avoid it but pedigree research. Both parents are now known
carriers, full siblings have 67 % chance to be carriers, half siblings and
grandparents have 50 % chance to be carriers and so on.

If this is the only case of this type of white spotting, don't worry and
only thing to avoid is inbreeding between these known and supposed
carriers. Any breeding with dogs from other bloodlines is ok. If other
similarly patterned dogs are known, the possibility to be a carrier can be
counted for each of their relatives too.

Minor white spotting on a dog doesn't mean have to mean that it is a
carrier of irish spotting. But when you want to breed a known or
supposed carrier, it might be wise to avoid any potential partners which
have visible white as long as good, totally solid partners are available.

No need to worry too much. This is a totally harmless mismark, which
affects just the show quality of the dog and nothing else. Even breeding
irish to irish gives just more irish and not larger white patches or any
health problems. And hey, "Panda Elkhounds" might turn out to be very
popular (I hope NOT.)

2. These are just an extreme case of "minor white spotting" on normal SS
solid dog. It doesn't sound like that, as SS dogs are not supposed to be
able to have more than a smallish chest patch and white paws, not socks,
but I present this theory anyway.

If it was this, it means that both parents and siblings are normal SS dogs
with larger than average amount of "minus" modifiers which create those
small white patches. This one puppy has happened to inherit largest
possible amount of them.

How to cope with this: no inbreeding inside this bloodline, and take care
to breed these dogs with just partners who are totally solid and haven't
gotten pups with even coin-sized white spots.

3. This is a mutant. Or a double breeding, and the other sire is that
piebald spitz-looking mutt behind that not high enough back yard fence! In
these cases the genotype could even be Ssw aka "false irish".

Liisa

diddy wrote in
:

Could you explain "irish spotting further please?"

Look at Lassie's white markings. She has irish pattern in all her
"incarnations". Nearly all Collies, Shelties, (show bred) Border Collies,
Bearded Collies, Karelian Bear Dogs and Basenjis of this world are irish
patterned aka irish spotted.

Typical irish markings in a dog include white chest, forelegs white well
over paws, white back paws and white belly. Sometimes there is a white spot
on neck, or white creates a full white collar. Forelegs can be white up to
elbows, and the tail tip can be white. There might be a white muzzle and a
white stripe between eyes, but the head can be solid too. Larger white
markings on head, like a broad blaze, are not a typical part of irish
pattern.

If a dog has also white spots on sides or even on back, tail is at least
1/3 white or backlegs have white over heels (hocks? I don't know the proper
anatomy words in English), it most probably isn't a homozygous irish but
something else. Homozygous irish is genotype sisi. Genotypes Ssw, sisp and
sisw can give a very irish-looking expression but they might have these
extra white markings I described here.

The pattern is called "irish" because a wild (?) rat strain with a certain
white spotting pattern was found from Ireland. These rats were called
"irish", and later rather similar pattern in dogs got the same name.
"Tuxedo pattern" is its closest counterpart in cats.

Here's a rather typical irish pattern in Smooth Collie:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/sarakontu/kis.../kepukuva1.jpg

These paint Bucket puppies DO occur in elkhounds. In fact, backin the
70's a VERY famous Elkhound (Don't laugh) SBIS CH.Freddie Fudpucker was
renowned for his broad white splashes. He was such an outstanding
elkhound, he won inspite of his white splashes, that were frowned
upon. I'll see if I can find pictures somewhere and post them on a
website.

I'd really love to see a picture of such a dog!

Liisa

"Liisa Sarakontu" wrote in message
6...
diddy wrote in
:

Could you explain "irish spotting further please?"

Look at Lassie's white markings. She has irish pattern in all her
"incarnations". Nearly all Collies, Shelties, (show bred) Border Collies,
Bearded Collies, Karelian Bear Dogs and Basenjis of this world are irish
patterned aka irish spotted.

Typical irish markings in a dog include white chest, forelegs white well
over paws, white back paws and white belly. Sometimes there is a white
spot
on neck, or white creates a full white collar. Forelegs can be white up to
elbows, and the tail tip can be white. There might be a white muzzle and a
white stripe between eyes, but the head can be solid too. Larger white
markings on head, like a broad blaze, are not a typical part of irish
pattern.

If a dog has also white spots on sides or even on back, tail is at least
1/3 white or backlegs have white over heels (hocks? I don't know the
proper
anatomy words in English), it most probably isn't a homozygous irish but
something else.

In collie land lore, the most reliable indicator of a white factoring (si
sw) is white extending over the stifle (knee). Most likely the hock (heel)
is white as well, but not always.

A friend here in Ithaca just got a smooth collie puppy, Bree, who is white
factored. If you go to : http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/chrisjjung/my_photos
you can see Bree giving me a paw (I'm in love). And you can see her white
stifle and hock.

Homozygous Irish is genotype sisi. Genotypes Ssw, sisp and
sisw can give a very Irish-looking expression but they might have these
extra white markings I described here.

Both Pablo and Lucy, being non white factored collies, are of course si si.
Pablo has maximum Irish White (very flashy) plus the blaze (which has been
mostly bred out of the collie breed) and Lucy has fairly minimum Irish white
(minimum for a collie that is). I stuck a few side photos of them in the
"Lucy & Pablo" album.

Chris and her smoothies,
Pablo and Lucy

"chris jung" wrote in
:

In collie land lore, the most reliable indicator of a white factoring
(si sw) is white extending over the stifle (knee). Most likely the
hock (heel) is white as well, but not always.

Yep, that is a very good indicator too. I've thought that "belly white
creeps to the sides" is the most reliable hint about sisw genotype, but
that "white up to and over the knee" is certainly a very good too, and
really might be the best one.

A friend here in Ithaca just got a smooth collie puppy, Bree, who is
white factored. If you go to :
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/chrisjjung/my_photos you can see Bree
giving me a paw (I'm in love). And you can see her white stifle and
hock.

LOTS of white! That "white collar extends over shoulders" seems to be
connected with sisw genotype as well. When sisi dogs have a full collar, it
normally stays in front of shoulder blade area or at least doesn't go very
far over it.

Both Pablo and Lucy, being non white factored collies, are of course si
si. Pablo has maximum Irish White (very flashy) plus the blaze (which
has been mostly bred out of the collie breed) and Lucy has fairly
minimum Irish white (minimum for a collie that is). I stuck a few side
photos of them in the "Lucy & Pablo" album.

Lucy really has very little white for a Collie, but that pattern would be
more common in several other breeds. When a breed is not bred to show as
pretty irish pattern as possible, full collar is rare and socks are often
rather low.

Pablo, on the other hand, has lots of white. When looking at the photo I
would actually say that he is more likely sisw (or sisp) than sisi. I've
seen pics of known sisw dogs which had about that same amount of white:
extra wide collar, and belly white nearly starts to creep to the sides. But
the amount of white on all legs fits nicely to "close to maximum
expression" of sisi.

Liisa

"Liisa Sarakontu" wrote in message
...
"chris jung" wrote in
:

In collie land lore, the most reliable indicator of a white factoring
(si sw) is white extending over the stifle (knee). Most likely the
hock (heel) is white as well, but not always.

Yep, that is a very good indicator too. I've thought that "belly white
creeps to the sides" is the most reliable hint about sisw genotype, but
that "white up to and over the knee" is certainly a very good too, and
really might be the best one.

Both Pablo and Lucy, being non white factored collies, are of course si
si. Pablo has maximum Irish White (very flashy) plus the blaze (which
has been mostly bred out of the collie breed) and Lucy has fairly
minimum Irish white (minimum for a collie that is). I stuck a few side
photos of them in the "Lucy & Pablo" album.

Lucy really has very little white for a Collie, but that pattern would be
more common in several other breeds. When a breed is not bred to show as
pretty irish pattern as possible, full collar is rare and socks are often
rather low.

There is one line of collies that has even less Irish white. In fact I
remember one smooth sable in particular that did not have a collar at all,
just a white stripe running down the front of his neck, white toes the
front, white toe tips on the back and maybe a few white hairs on the tail
tip. Personally I felt that was way too little Irish white. Without the
chrome, he looked like just any old brown dog. ;-)

Pablo, on the other hand, has lots of white. When looking at the photo I
would actually say that he is more likely sisw (or sisp) than sisi. I've
seen pics of known sisw dogs which had about that same amount of white:
extra wide collar, and belly white nearly starts to creep to the sides.
But
the amount of white on all legs fits nicely to "close to maximum
expression" of sisi.

I'm pretty certain he's sisi since no whites (swsw or spsp - piebald type)
have ever shown up in the line. Pablo is from a tightly line-bred strain of
collies. Many of them have the white starting up the side of the chest and
various amounts of white on the face (usually snips on top of the muzzle or
thin blazes). Pablo, however, has the most facial white of any of the
collies in this family line. All of them have wide collars and full
stockings on the front. Pablo himself is from a father daughter mating.
His father was a BIS show dog and is a ROM (I can't remember what the words
stand for but it means he's sired a certain number of champions).

Chris and her smoothies,
Pablo & Lucy

"chris jung" wrote in
:

I'm pretty certain he's sisi since no whites (swsw or spsp - piebald
type) have ever shown up in the line. Pablo is from a tightly line-bred
strain of collies.

Then he really is most likely sisi. Tight inbreeding should have revealed
the sp/sw allele if it was lurking in that bloodline.

Liisa