Hi there

I have two King Charles Spaniels. Donna and Dior. Donna has just turned
one year old and is quit a hand full. She is almost impossible to
train. Resently she started peeing in her cage at night again. She used
to share her cage with Dior who is 18 months old. He used to wake us up
whenever she urinated in their shared cage. After she urinates in her
cage (which is a collapsable type made out of some sort of cloth) To
stop her from upsetting the older dog at night we bought another cage
to split them up. Everyone has been giving advice but to no avail. I
have not had a good night sleep for months now. Donna has a mind of her
own and is extremely hyper.
As a general rule she does not respond well to any kind of punishment.
She just keeps on wagging her tail when you punish her.
We try and get her to urinate before she gets put in her cage at night.
But she doesn't seem to get what she needs to do. And I give up after
staying outside with her after about half an hour. About an hour after
she has been put in her cage she inevidently urinates in her cage and
starts whining. I end up getting up and change her blanket and let her
out again. When I open her cage instead of wanting to go outside she
heads for the other dogs cage and just wants to play. I then just pick
her up and put her outside for a little bit then back in her cage.
After an hour or so she violently starts scratching at her new hard
plastic cage. And I end up not sleeping very much. She does not stop
scratching at her cage at all and keeps at it all night long. I have
tried to ignore her for the past couple of weeks but she doesn't give
up. She seems to be winning this battle.

I REALLY NEED HELP

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi there

I have two King Charles Spaniels. Donna and Dior. Donna has just turned
one year old and is quit a hand full. She is almost impossible to
train. Resently she started peeing in her cage at night again. She used
to share her cage with Dior who is 18 months old. He used to wake us up
whenever she urinated in their shared cage. After she urinates in her
cage (which is a collapsable type made out of some sort of cloth) To
stop her from upsetting the older dog at night we bought another cage
to split them up. Everyone has been giving advice but to no avail. I
have not had a good night sleep for months now. Donna has a mind of her
own and is extremely hyper.
As a general rule she does not respond well to any kind of punishment.
She just keeps on wagging her tail when you punish her.
We try and get her to urinate before she gets put in her cage at night.
But she doesn't seem to get what she needs to do. And I give up after
staying outside with her after about half an hour. About an hour after
she has been put in her cage she inevidently urinates in her cage and
starts whining. I end up getting up and change her blanket and let her
out again. When I open her cage instead of wanting to go outside she
heads for the other dogs cage and just wants to play. I then just pick
her up and put her outside for a little bit then back in her cage.
After an hour or so she violently starts scratching at her new hard
plastic cage. And I end up not sleeping very much. She does not stop
scratching at her cage at all and keeps at it all night long. I have
tried to ignore her for the past couple of weeks but she doesn't give
up. She seems to be winning this battle.

I REALLY NEED HELP

Is there any reason for your dogs to be crated at night?
Donna sounds distressed and punishing her will add to that and make the
situation worse. She likely doesn't know *why* you are punishing her, only
that you do.
Wagging her tail is showing you that although you are being aggressive to
her (in her view), she is not a threat to you.

Alison

Alison wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi there

I have two King Charles Spaniels. Donna and Dior. Donna has just turned
one year old and is quit a hand full. She is almost impossible to
train. Resently she started peeing in her cage at night again. She used
to share her cage with Dior who is 18 months old. He used to wake us up
whenever she urinated in their shared cage. After she urinates in her
cage (which is a collapsable type made out of some sort of cloth) To
stop her from upsetting the older dog at night we bought another cage
to split them up. Everyone has been giving advice but to no avail. I
have not had a good night sleep for months now. Donna has a mind of her
own and is extremely hyper.
As a general rule she does not respond well to any kind of punishment.
She just keeps on wagging her tail when you punish her.
We try and get her to urinate before she gets put in her cage at night.
But she doesn't seem to get what she needs to do. And I give up after
staying outside with her after about half an hour. About an hour after
she has been put in her cage she inevidently urinates in her cage and
starts whining. I end up getting up and change her blanket and let her
out again. When I open her cage instead of wanting to go outside she
heads for the other dogs cage and just wants to play. I then just pick
her up and put her outside for a little bit then back in her cage.
After an hour or so she violently starts scratching at her new hard
plastic cage. And I end up not sleeping very much. She does not stop
scratching at her cage at all and keeps at it all night long. I have
tried to ignore her for the past couple of weeks but she doesn't give
up. She seems to be winning this battle.

I REALLY NEED HELP

Is there any reason for your dogs to be crated at night?
Donna sounds distressed and punishing her will add to that and make the
situation worse. She likely doesn't know *why* you are punishing her, only
that you do.
Wagging her tail is showing you that although you are being aggressive to
her (in her view), she is not a threat to you.

Alison

The reason we cage them at night is they jump on the table and grab
stuff off it. Find shoes to chew on. And she starts anoying Dior when
he is trying to sleep,

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi there

I have two King Charles Spaniels. Donna and Dior. Donna has just turned
one year old and is quit a hand full. She is almost impossible to
train. Resently she started peeing in her cage at night again. She used
to share her cage with Dior who is 18 months old. He used to wake us up
whenever she urinated in their shared cage. After she urinates in her
cage (which is a collapsable type made out of some sort of cloth) To
stop her from upsetting the older dog at night we bought another cage
to split them up. Everyone has been giving advice but to no avail. I
have not had a good night sleep for months now. Donna has a mind of her
own and is extremely hyper.
As a general rule she does not respond well to any kind of punishment.
She just keeps on wagging her tail when you punish her.
We try and get her to urinate before she gets put in her cage at night.
But she doesn't seem to get what she needs to do. And I give up after
staying outside with her after about half an hour. About an hour after
she has been put in her cage she inevidently urinates in her cage and
starts whining. I end up getting up and change her blanket and let her
out again. When I open her cage instead of wanting to go outside she
heads for the other dogs cage and just wants to play. I then just pick
her up and put her outside for a little bit then back in her cage.
After an hour or so she violently starts scratching at her new hard
plastic cage. And I end up not sleeping very much. She does not stop
scratching at her cage at all and keeps at it all night long. I have
tried to ignore her for the past couple of weeks but she doesn't give
up. She seems to be winning this battle.

I REALLY NEED HELP
====================
One suggestion might be instead of just letting her out of the house to pee,
put her on a leash and walk her, letting her sniff other dogs areas. That
seems to stimulate them into peeing more than opening the door and just
letting them out into the yard. The best thing for her would be to take her
for a walk in the morning and at night. But, even if you can't walk her
outside around your neighborhood, I would put her on a leash and walk her
around the yard, but the longer walks would also calm her down a lot besides
getting her to pee more.
=====================

Alison wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi there

I have two King Charles Spaniels. Donna and Dior. Donna has just turned
one year old and is quit a hand full. She is almost impossible to
train. Resently she started peeing in her cage at night again. She used
to share her cage with Dior who is 18 months old. He used to wake us up
whenever she urinated in their shared cage. After she urinates in her
cage (which is a collapsable type made out of some sort of cloth) To
stop her from upsetting the older dog at night we bought another cage
to split them up. Everyone has been giving advice but to no avail. I
have not had a good night sleep for months now. Donna has a mind of her
own and is extremely hyper.
As a general rule she does not respond well to any kind of punishment.
She just keeps on wagging her tail when you punish her.
We try and get her to urinate before she gets put in her cage at night.
But she doesn't seem to get what she needs to do. And I give up after
staying outside with her after about half an hour. About an hour after
she has been put in her cage she inevidently urinates in her cage and
starts whining. I end up getting up and change her blanket and let her
out again. When I open her cage instead of wanting to go outside she
heads for the other dogs cage and just wants to play. I then just pick
her up and put her outside for a little bit then back in her cage.
After an hour or so she violently starts scratching at her new hard
plastic cage. And I end up not sleeping very much. She does not stop
scratching at her cage at all and keeps at it all night long. I have
tried to ignore her for the past couple of weeks but she doesn't give
up. She seems to be winning this battle.

I REALLY NEED HELP

Is there any reason for your dogs to be crated at night?
Donna sounds distressed and punishing her will add to that and make the
situation worse. She likely doesn't know *why* you are punishing her, only
that you do.
Wagging her tail is showing you that although you are being aggressive to
her (in her view), she is not a threat to you.

Alison

I personally would never advise someone to not crate their dog at
night. While there are dogs that can be left out without getting in to
trouble, in my experience, the majority of them can not. Without
actually meeting a dog in person for extended periods of time and
witnessing how it acts when it thinks it is alone for extended periods
of time I would never recommend not caging a dog because the odds are
against it. Just my opinion.

wrote in message
ups.com...

Alison wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi there

I have two King Charles Spaniels. Donna and Dior. Donna has just
turned
one year old and is quit a hand full. She is almost impossible to
train. Resently she started peeing in her cage at night again. She
used
to share her cage with Dior who is 18 months old. He used to wake us
up
whenever she urinated in their shared cage. After she urinates in her
cage (which is a collapsable type made out of some sort of cloth) To
stop her from upsetting the older dog at night we bought another cage
to split them up. Everyone has been giving advice but to no avail. I
have not had a good night sleep for months now. Donna has a mind of
her
own and is extremely hyper.
As a general rule she does not respond well to any kind of punishment.
She just keeps on wagging her tail when you punish her.
We try and get her to urinate before she gets put in her cage at
night.
But she doesn't seem to get what she needs to do. And I give up after
staying outside with her after about half an hour. About an hour after
she has been put in her cage she inevidently urinates in her cage and
starts whining. I end up getting up and change her blanket and let her
out again. When I open her cage instead of wanting to go outside she
heads for the other dogs cage and just wants to play. I then just pick
her up and put her outside for a little bit then back in her cage.
After an hour or so she violently starts scratching at her new hard
plastic cage. And I end up not sleeping very much. She does not stop
scratching at her cage at all and keeps at it all night long. I have
tried to ignore her for the past couple of weeks but she doesn't give
up. She seems to be winning this battle.

I REALLY NEED HELP

Is there any reason for your dogs to be crated at night?
Donna sounds distressed and punishing her will add to that and make the
situation worse. She likely doesn't know *why* you are punishing her,
only
that you do.
Wagging her tail is showing you that although you are being aggressive
to
her (in her view), she is not a threat to you.

Alison

The reason we cage them at night is they jump on the table and grab
stuff off it. Find shoes to chew on. And she starts anoying Dior when
he is trying to sleep,
=========================
I would think that that is plenty good reason to cage them.
Many dogs don't mind being caged and actually feel safer in their cages. It
becomes a place where they can fully relax; their little haven.
I think dogs like yours that get into trouble when no one is around to watch
them, should be caged, but the cage should not be seen as a a place of
punishment to the dogs. The dog cage protects dogs from hurting themselves
and from ruining the house. But, you want them to like their cage. I have
a travel cage and a wire cage. I am not crazy about the plastic cages. I
think the wire cage allows the dog to feel closer to the family activity and
they can see what is going on plus they get better air circulation. I don't
use any cage anymore, but my Rottie never does anything wrong and just
sleeps on her sheepskin bed in the sun room, never bothering anyone.
The previous Rottie I had could not be kept in a cage at all. She hated the
cage. We had to put two padlocks on the cage, and she got out twice with
the padlocks still left locked on the cage. After that we gave up on the
cage. So, one night we put her in the bathroom and went to a Christmas
party for about 4 hours, but when we returned she was out of the bathroom
and the entire frame around the door was chewed off. She didn't even get
sick or bleed. The entire door and frame had to be replaced. From then on
we took her everywhere we went and when home, she slept on her bed guarding
the front door; no more cages. That dog did not want to be separated from
me.
The Rottie we have now is more easy going; we can leave her home alone for a
few hours sometimes, with no problems at all, but she told me also that she
does not want to use her cage anymore; she slept in it for two years without
any problems at all, even seemed to enjoy it; no stress, and then one day
she would not go in, and the next day, she would not go in, so we just
allowed her to sleep on her mat in the sun room after that, but she has
never been a problem.
=========================

On 4 Aug 2006 01:56:44 -0700, , clicked their
heels and said:

I have two King Charles Spaniels. Donna and Dior. Donna has just turned
one year old and is quit a hand full. She is almost impossible to
train.

What have you done so far? Training classes?

Resently she started peeing in her cage at night again.

Where did you get her?

. Donna has a mind of her
own and is extremely hyper.

How much and what kind of exercise and training does she get?

As a general rule she does not respond well to any kind of punishment.
She just keeps on wagging her tail when you punish her.

How are you "punishing" her? How are you TEACHING her?

We try and get her to urinate before she gets put in her cage at night.
But she doesn't seem to get what she needs to do. And I give up after
staying outside with her after about half an hour.

Stop doing that. Put her on a schedule. Take her out ON LEASH, EVERY
TIME. Praise her. She gets no freedom or play until she eliminates.
If she won't go at bedtime (start 15 minutes earlier than bedtime),
bring her back in. keep her confined, and try again 15 minutes later.
She needs to eliminate when asked to, not on her choice.

The reason we cage them at night is they jump on the table and grab
stuff off it. Find shoes to chew on. And she starts anoying Dior when
he is trying to sleep

I'm assuming they're in your bedroom. She needs a routine, exercise
and training. She needs to be in the mode of sleep at night, and
whatever she's getting or not getting during the day isn't adding up
to that.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

wrote:
Hi there

I have two King Charles Spaniels. Donna and Dior. Donna has just turned
one year old and is quit a hand full. She is almost impossible to
train. Resently she started peeing in her cage at night again. She used
to share her cage with Dior who is 18 months old. He used to wake us up
whenever she urinated in their shared cage. After she urinates in her
cage (which is a collapsable type made out of some sort of cloth) To
stop her from upsetting the older dog at night we bought another cage
to split them up. Everyone has been giving advice but to no avail. I
have not had a good night sleep for months now. Donna has a mind of her
own and is extremely hyper.
As a general rule she does not respond well to any kind of punishment.
She just keeps on wagging her tail when you punish her.
We try and get her to urinate before she gets put in her cage at night.
But she doesn't seem to get what she needs to do. And I give up after
staying outside with her after about half an hour. About an hour after
she has been put in her cage she inevidently urinates in her cage and
starts whining. I end up getting up and change her blanket and let her
out again. When I open her cage instead of wanting to go outside she
heads for the other dogs cage and just wants to play. I then just pick
her up and put her outside for a little bit then back in her cage.
After an hour or so she violently starts scratching at her new hard
plastic cage. And I end up not sleeping very much. She does not stop
scratching at her cage at all and keeps at it all night long. I have
tried to ignore her for the past couple of weeks but she doesn't give
up. She seems to be winning this battle.

I REALLY NEED HELP

For a temporary solution, I would use walking to get the dog to go to
the bathroom every night before putting her in the cage. But I don't
think walking the dog for an extended period of time before each night
is a plausible solution to the problem, because you won't always have
the time for a long walk before bedtime. My first concern is that you
say she is almost impossible to train, and that she doesn't respond to
punishment. What kinds of training have you tried? What kinds of
punishment? Certain kinds of training, and certain kinds of punishment
work differently for different dogs. I personally use a mix of praise
for proper behavior and corrections for inappropriate behavior. I
believe that solely praise will get you a dog which will do it when it
wants to, and solely corrections will get you a dog which will do it
every time, but not because they want to. With a mix, I try and get a
dog that does it every time because they want to please you.

I would work hard on obedience training, that way when the dog does pee
in the cage again, you can correct it with a correction you know works.
The dog could be too hard for the corrections you are giving it, which
is why it just wags it's tail at you. In which case you need to adjust
the level of correction until you get a response from the dog. If the
correction doesn't change the behavior than most likely it isn't a
strong enough correction. If you are going to use correction for
training, it is important to use strong enough corrections. It is a
lot better to have to give one strong correction than to repeatedly
give weak corrections that don't fix the problem.

wrote in message
ups.com...

Alison wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi there

I have two King Charles Spaniels. Donna and Dior. Donna has just turned
one year old and is quit a hand full. She is almost impossible to
train. Resently she started peeing in her cage at night again. She used
to share her cage with Dior who is 18 months old. He used to wake us up
whenever she urinated in their shared cage. After she urinates in her
cage (which is a collapsable type made out of some sort of cloth) To
stop her from upsetting the older dog at night we bought another cage
to split them up. Everyone has been giving advice but to no avail. I
have not had a good night sleep for months now. Donna has a mind of her
own and is extremely hyper.
As a general rule she does not respond well to any kind of punishment.
She just keeps on wagging her tail when you punish her.
We try and get her to urinate before she gets put in her cage at night.
But she doesn't seem to get what she needs to do. And I give up after
staying outside with her after about half an hour. About an hour after
she has been put in her cage she inevidently urinates in her cage and
starts whining. I end up getting up and change her blanket and let her
out again. When I open her cage instead of wanting to go outside she
heads for the other dogs cage and just wants to play. I then just pick
her up and put her outside for a little bit then back in her cage.
After an hour or so she violently starts scratching at her new hard
plastic cage. And I end up not sleeping very much. She does not stop
scratching at her cage at all and keeps at it all night long. I have
tried to ignore her for the past couple of weeks but she doesn't give
up. She seems to be winning this battle.

I REALLY NEED HELP

Is there any reason for your dogs to be crated at night?
Donna sounds distressed and punishing her will add to that and make the
situation worse. She likely doesn't know *why* you are punishing her,
only
that you do.
Wagging her tail is showing you that although you are being aggressive
to
her (in her view), she is not a threat to you.

Alison

The reason we cage them at night is they jump on the table and grab
stuff off it. Find shoes to chew on. And she starts anoying Dior when
he is trying to sleep,

Between the first post, and this second piece of information, you need a lot
more than just a simple answer to crate training. Your one dog is *totally*
confused about what is expected (and that's the human's fault here, not the
dog's, so if anyone is going to be punished....well, stop punishing the dog
for what the humans haven't been doing properly, ok?), and they both sound
totally untrained.

I would find a good in person trainer and enroll yourselves in a training
class ASAP.

Tara

wrote in message
ups.com...

About the weeing, I would take her to the vet for a check up in case she
has a UTI.
Not weeing outside at night (and in the daytime for that matter) and then
weeing indoors is a common problem with rescue dogs or dogs that are
anxious. It can mean that they are not confident about weeing outside and
also maybe they feel
under pressure to preform so to speak which makes them more anxious . I
had this problem with night time weeing my rescue dog, I found it helped
to take him for a short walk to encourage him .
When he did wee, I would wait until he was in mid flow and the say do a
wee or you can say go potty and then good boy. You have to wait until they
are actually weeing to say it so they make the connection and also so it
doesn't put them off .
Once you are sure they have made the connection and understand you can say
it as you let her out in the yard.

I think you should stand back and look at the big picture
and how your dogs lives are in general to see if you can make any
improvement.
How much general attention, playtime and excercise do they get , are
they crated all day and at night too? Do they have toys they are allowed
to chew?
I would try to get to training classes using positive methods or read a
good training book . Remember dogs don't understand English. We know what
we mean and what we want them to do but they doesn't mean to say that
*they* do.
You can buy DAP diffusers which are supposed to help calm dogs.
If you can provide enough exercise and chewing toys she might sleep more
at night and you might be able to consider not crating them.

Alison