I have Chesapeake Bay retrievers, and their coloration is
not well described in terms of the general dog color patterns.
They are all bb, and vary from dark brown to pale buff
("light deadgrass").

They sometimes show various A locus patterns, such as
tanpoint, saddle, and what I think is sable, as well as
brindle. What I have been wondering for some time
is whether some of the "brown" dogs are in fact very dark
tan, either sable patterned or some other A locus pattern
where the brown is nearly indistinguishable from the tan.

Right now I have two puppies, out of "brown" parents.
One appears to be uniform, solid dark brown. The other
is medium brown, with darker brown markings. I'd like
to know from people experienced with breeds showing
unambiguous A-locus markings, if they consider these
markings typical in a 6-week-old "sable."

The puppy has a darker stripe down his back, somewhat
denser or darker farther back than it is over his shoulders.
His tail has a color change about 1/3 of the way from the
base, being darker brown from there to the tip. His ears
appear darker right around the edges. Does this sound like
sable pattern in a puppy to you?

What other breeds are known to have very dark tan? I think
this puppy's dam is either sable or saddle marked, but you
can't see any markings. Well, I can't. Her dam in turn was
lighter brown with tanpoint shadings some of the time, and
reddish without shadings at other times (a weird thing about
these dogs is the major changes in appearance some of them
undergo).

Amy Dahl

Amy Dahl wrote in
:

Chesapeake Bay retrievers,
They are all bb, and vary from dark brown to pale buff

I haven't seen with my own eyes anything but solid pale browns in this
breed, but I've seen nice photos of several A locus patterns. So your
colors come from 3 different traits, which are inherited separately:

1. pattern (mainly A locus)
you have at least:
- dominant black (solid brown, any shade)
- sable (mainly yellow/tan dog with some darker shading
- tanpoint
- saddle (or perhaps wolf pattern? haven't seen enough pics)
- brindle, which creates stripes over the pale parts of any pattern.

2. shade of eumelanin
varies from very dark brown to very faded "deadgrass".

3. shade of phaeomelanin
varies from dark tan to creamish, and is visible only on dogs which are
not solid brown. Darker shades make it hard to see the pattern, as brown
eumelanin and rich phaeomelanin can be very close to each others. Dark to
medium shades seem to be most common in this breed.

This site has a nice photo collection of patterns and shades:
http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/F...6/colours.html

What I have been wondering for some time
is whether some of the "brown" dogs are in fact very dark
tan, either sable patterned or some other A locus pattern
where the brown is nearly indistinguishable from the tan.

Yup, very likely. Look at these pages:

http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/F...deadgrass.html
the pup is clearly a dark-masked sable, and as its phaeomelanin is quite
pale, it is quite easy to see where it has brown hairs and where just that
yellow.

http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Farm/1276/sedge.html
These "sedge" dogs are not solid brown, but some borders between darker and
paler can be seen especially on face. The pattern might be some kind of
sable, but as its eumelanin is non-dark reddish brown and phaeomelanin is
reddish tan, the real edges are very hard to see.

base, being darker brown from there to the tip. His ears
appear darker right around the edges. Does this sound like
sable pattern in a puppy to you?

Yes. Here is a pale cream Finnish Lapphund dam with both cream (ee) and
sable pups:
http://lapikas.net/varisivut/varikuvat/pennut/sp3.jpg

What other breeds are known to have very dark tan?

About all breeds which have been bred to be "brighter" and "prettier". All
setters, all spaniels, Dobermann and Rottweiler, many GSDs, several hounds,
St Bernhard etc. And any dogs which dark hair tips over tan base color look
darker than pure tan dogs.

Liisa

Thank you for the detailed and researched reply!

Liisa Sarakontu wrote:

I haven't seen with my own eyes anything but solid pale browns in this
breed, but I've seen nice photos of several A locus patterns. So your
colors come from 3 different traits, which are inherited separately:

1. pattern (mainly A locus)
you have at least:
- dominant black (solid brown, any shade)
- sable (mainly yellow/tan dog with some darker shading
- tanpoint
- saddle (or perhaps wolf pattern? haven't seen enough pics)
- brindle, which creates stripes over the pale parts of any pattern.

I was looking at the sire of these puppies this morning, and he
is the same golden-brown color I suspect of being "tan"
(phaeomelanin) in my bitch. That makes me wonder if the
dark puppy could be "recessive black." Any thoughts
on whether "recessive black" does or does not occur in
the breed, or what to look for in the individual for clues?


This site has a nice photo collection of patterns and shades:
http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/F...6/colours.html



That is Adrienne Bordo's site. She and I used to ponder color
and pattern together and we have lost touch. I need to
photograph these puppies and send them to her.



Yes. Here is a pale cream Finnish Lapphund dam with both cream (ee) and
sable pups:
http://lapikas.net/varisivut/varikuvat/pennut/sp3.jpg


The pattern looks a little different. Do you find there are
variations in the areas of shading on the back in immature
sable-marked puppies? Mine has a band of uniform width
down his back, and a clear line of demarcation on his tail.


About all breeds which have been bred to be "brighter" and "prettier". All
setters, all spaniels, Dobermann and Rottweiler, many GSDs, several hounds,
St Bernhard etc. And any dogs which dark hair tips over tan base color look
darker than pure tan dogs.


The Rotts and hounds I know don't seem as dark in the tan
as my Chesapeake bitch...but maybe I'm misled by the
contrast with their black markings. Maybe I need to go find
a red Rott to look at, or something.

Amy Dahl

Amy Dahl wrote in
:

I was looking at the sire of these puppies this morning, and he
is the same golden-brown color I suspect of being "tan"
(phaeomelanin) in my bitch. That makes me wonder if the
dark puppy could be "recessive black." Any thoughts
on whether "recessive black" does or does not occur in
the breed, or what to look for in the individual for clues?

Young pups, which will develop a pattern later, might look solid dark
(black or brown) at birth. But even darkest ones normally show at least a
little tan around vent, if they are going to turn into for example
tanpoints with very small points.

Recessive black is a rather rare pattern in dogs. It is far more common
than older books tell (they mention that it can be found only from GSD and
Sheltie), but it seems to be missing from about all "lop-eared hunting
breeds" like hounds, spaniels, gundogs and retrievers. I think that I have
seen rec. black this far only in spitz-type breeds, GSD and some other
herding breeds and in Tibetan Mastiff. In most breeds solid
black/brown/dark is always the more common dominant black (K).

But then rec. black is often confused by "just normal black" and it
wouldn't be a too big surprise if it popped up in still more breeds.

And then some solid brown dogs look very faded especially during late
summer, and might show several shades instead of being totally solid.
Palest browns can sometimes look like ee yellows or patterned dogs.

That is Adrienne Bordo's site. She and I used to ponder color
and pattern together and we have lost touch. I need to
photograph these puppies and send them to her.

I bet that she would know how puppy patterns in your breed will turn out
when they grow up. And if you happen to put those photos on a web site,
please send the url to mee too!

The pattern looks a little different. Do you find there are
variations in the areas of shading on the back in immature
sable-marked puppies? Mine has a band of uniform width
down his back, and a clear line of demarcation on his tail.

Sable varies from breed to breed. In some breeds sable pups are born more
black/dark than tan, and in others they are nearly as clear as adult
sables. Let me see if I can find better sable photos...

These sable Basenji pups have just very little dark shading:
http://static.flickr.com/29/89268897_e37503c12b.jpg?v=0

All these rather dark Malinois pups are sables too:
http://www.heartlandbelgians.com/Vix...riggsPups3.jpg

And here's a trio of Shiba pups:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y20...sha%20en%20Nij
i/DSC07957.jpg

Liisa

Liisa Sarakontu wrote:


Young pups, which will develop a pattern later, might look solid dark
(black or brown) at birth. But even darkest ones normally show at least a
little tan around vent, if they are going to turn into for example
tanpoints with very small points.

I will look for this. I thought that since at 6 weeks, she has
no eyebrow spots, she is probably not tanpoint.

Recessive black is a rather rare pattern in dogs. It is far more common
than older books tell (they mention that it can be found only from GSD and
Sheltie), but it seems to be missing from about all "lop-eared hunting
breeds" like hounds, spaniels, gundogs and retrievers. I think that I have
seen rec. black this far only in spitz-type breeds, GSD and some other
herding breeds and in Tibetan Mastiff. In most breeds solid
black/brown/dark is always the more common dominant black (K).

There are some bluetick coonhounds that are all-blue, that is,
white-spotted with heavy ticking over solid black. My husband
bred some once out of two tanpoint bluetick parents. He says
he has never heard of an all-black born in a black-and-tan
breeding, although that doesn't prove it hasn't.


That is Adrienne Bordo's site. She and I used to ponder color
and pattern together and we have lost touch. I need to
photograph these puppies and send them to her.

I bet that she would know how puppy patterns in your breed will turn out
when they grow up. And if you happen to put those photos on a web site,
please send the url to mee too!

Thanks, if I get organized, I will.

Amy Dahl

Amy Dahl wrote in
:

I will look for this. I thought that since at 6 weeks, she has
no eyebrow spots, she is probably not tanpoint.

Most likely. But there still are tanpoints like this, although probably not
in your breed:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/tuulen/tuulen22.htm
This male doesn't have eyebrow spots, but then he isn't "pure" tanpoint but
he is ata, one allele for tanpoint and one for recessive black.

There are some bluetick coonhounds that are all-blue, that is,
white-spotted with heavy ticking over solid black. My husband
bred some once out of two tanpoint bluetick parents. He says
he has never heard of an all-black born in a black-and-tan
breeding, although that doesn't prove it hasn't.

That really sounds like recessive black! Or it was a mutation, or one of
the parents wasn't a real tanpoint after all. "Ghost tanpoint" pattern
might look like a smutty tanpoint, when it actually is dominant black which
is hiding tanpoint under it.

Liisa