Description of the situation:

My dogs, none littermates, quickly formed a pack, and 2 of them I used to
run in agility.



My small pack (3 8,9,10-yearolds) toy dogs, and they show no sign of slowing
down. and all want to be in my lap.

There's a frequent occurrence I don't understand.

A is on my lap--B is on the floor, considering at length jumping up on my
lap too.

C is nearby on another soft chair by herself.

A senses B is thinking about jumping up on my lap, and starts growling at B.

C reacts by jumping up on my lap from the other side, and starts growling
at the growling A.

What's the dynamics here? Why is C called to challenge and give stink eye
to A, who is warning B not to come and take her space?

iceman wrote:
Description of the situation:

My dogs, none littermates, quickly formed a pack, and 2 of them I used to
run in agility.



My small pack (3 8,9,10-yearolds) toy dogs, and they show no sign of slowing
down. and all want to be in my lap.

There's a frequent occurrence I don't understand.

A is on my lap--B is on the floor, considering at length jumping up on my
lap too.

C is nearby on another soft chair by herself.

A senses B is thinking about jumping up on my lap, and starts growling at B.

C reacts by jumping up on my lap from the other side, and starts growling
at the growling A.

What's the dynamics here? Why is C called to challenge and give stink eye
to A, who is warning B not to come and take her space?

Is it always the same dogs which are involved? Is one dog always doing
the same action. If dog C is always the same dog, then it would appear
he/she is exerting their dominance on the other two dogs. If it is
always the same three dogs and they always do the same thing, then I
would say C is Alpha, and the other two haven't quite figured out who
is who in the pack order yet. If it is always different dogs involved,
do your dogs ever get into fights. If they do, do you immediately
break them up, or do you give them a chance to settle it themselves
first. In the case of similarly sized dogs, where one does not have a
definite advantage over the other, it is best to allow them to settle
it themselves. Only step in if one of them appears to actually be in
danger. Most fights won't actually lead to any serious injuries, and
if they are not able to establish their pack order, they will just keep
having issues.

In article om,
wrote:
Most fights won't actually lead to any serious injuries, and
if they are not able to establish their pack order, they will just keep
having issues.

I'm not sure what you mean by "fight" here, but I'd
*absolutely* intervene in an actual, physical fight.
Snarking is a different matter, and while I keep an eye on
it I tend to let it go. Dogs typically do not establish
pack order by fighting. I have no idea where this myth came
from but I really wish it would go away.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Bad policies lead to bad results.

"iceman" said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

What's the dynamics here? Why is C called to challenge
and give stink eye to A, who is warning B not to come and
take her space?

Without seeing it happen, it's difficult to say exactly what's
happening, so take what I say as a FWIW.

FWIW, this sounds more like resource guarding than
pack/alpha/dominance stuff. In this case, you're the resource,
making it easy for you to control the resource. Make the
resource disappear when one of your dogs lays claim to it by
standing up and not paying any particular attention to the dogs.

Certainly, don't let them fight it out.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Thank you and the Longest, for your replies, and Ifmyfriends',
pack-challenge.

Pack behavior is downright fascinating -- if one figures it out right, I see
that it is repetitive. Having a pack inside the house gives more
observation oppty's.

There has been a history of sudden to-the-death-altracations that ended up
in several stitches. It was over who got the "best" spot in my bed with me
in it, and it happened under the covers(!) and I couldn't get out bed fast
enough. I've decided these sudden, lightening fast confrontations are far
more likely to happen in a confined space than out in the open, and I resist
saving some money when boarding by putting them together in the same kennel,
instead separate them . People that work at boarding kennels don't realize
that these cute little fuzzy females can turn into snapping Jaws in a hot
second. But anyway, in this case, B won, and to this day the other two
don't even get in B's spot EVEN WHEN B IS NOT AT HOME.


This goes on every day at least once. There is something about the spot in
my recliner next to my left leg that is highly sought after. There is no
interest at all in the spot next to my right leg, at least initially, but
frequently I will find all 3 dogs asleep in my lap,, in exactly the same
positions every time. But it starts out as I described--A gets there first
and growls at B, but eventually B sort of worms her way in and is partially
on top of A, which annoys A very much.

X= me

A-X-C
B

Is it possible that each favorite place must be settled?



"Rocky" wrote in message
...
"iceman" said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

What's the dynamics here? Why is C called to challenge
and give stink eye to A, who is warning B not to come and
take her space?

Without seeing it happen, it's difficult to say exactly what's
happening, so take what I say as a FWIW.

FWIW, this sounds more like resource guarding than
pack/alpha/dominance stuff. In this case, you're the resource,
making it easy for you to control the resource. Make the
resource disappear when one of your dogs lays claim to it by
standing up and not paying any particular attention to the dogs.

Certainly, don't let them fight it out.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

iceman wrote:

Is it possible that each favorite place must be settled?

It sounds to me as if at least one of your dogs is resource
guarding, with you as the resource. I have a bitch who, left to her
own devices, thinks she ought to be allowed to resource guard me.
It's not a behavior I am willing to put up with. If she did
something like that in bed, she'd very quickly find herself demoted
to sleeping in her crate.

--
Shelly (Warning: see label for details)
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

Melinda Shore wrote:
In article om,
wrote:
Most fights won't actually lead to any serious injuries, and
if they are not able to establish their pack order, they will just keep
having issues.

I'm not sure what you mean by "fight" here, but I'd
*absolutely* intervene in an actual, physical fight.
Snarking is a different matter, and while I keep an eye on
it I tend to let it go. Dogs typically do not establish
pack order by fighting. I have no idea where this myth came
from but I really wish it would go away.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Bad policies lead to bad results.

Most things which people call a fight, aren't really a fight that is
why they won't lead to injury. It is more a show than anything else.
But if you prevent them from performing their shows, they will never
settle on a pack order, and so disputes will continue to arise.

In article . com,
wrote:
Most things which people call a fight, aren't really a fight that is
why they won't lead to injury. It is more a show than anything else.
But if you prevent them from performing their shows, they will never
settle on a pack order, and so disputes will continue to arise.

I'm still not clear what you mean by "fight." Most
negotiation between dogs is really very subtle. I've seen a
couple of fights to settle pack status but it's the
exception rather than the rule.

I can think of words that might be more descriptive, like
"dispute," "conflict," "contention," and undoubtedly a
myriad of others. It seems to me that if you're going to
tell people that it's okay to let their dogs fight because
otherwise they won't settle pack structure you might want to
consider defining what you mean by "fight" because, well, if
you can't tell why I just don't know.

Personally, I allow gestures, I allow very low-key growling,
I do not allow lunging, baring of teeth, or hard-ass
growling, and I CERTAINLY do not allow fighting. Ever.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Bad policies lead to bad results.

(Melinda Shore) said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

Personally, I allow gestures, I allow very low-key growling,
I do not allow lunging, baring of teeth, or hard-ass
growling, and I CERTAINLY do not allow fighting. Ever.

Exactly. Friday is very good at telling new dogs the house
rules. He's low volume, but he gets his point across. I'm sure
that I've lost more than one client when I didn't correct Friday
for this to-them aggressive attitude.

Just today a pack (it was only 2, but still a pack!) of Mini
Schnauzers (Judy! Are they all high pitched?) came over to
check out my operation. The owners were, thankfully, AOK when
Friday grrrrd at the female who snapped at him.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" wrote in message
...
Just today a pack (it was only 2, but still a pack!) of Mini
Schnauzers (Judy! Are they all high pitched?) came over to
check out my operation. The owners were, thankfully, AOK when
Friday grrrrd at the female who snapped at him.

Not all. You wouldn't find Spenser high-pitched at all. Sassy OTOH has an
absolute scream. Think fingernails on the blackboard. Three notes higher
and only other dogs could hear it. She has an actual normal bark but when
raising the alarm, it's a definite scream. And like 0-60, it comes out of
complete silence to slice your eardrums open.

Both dogs also have very nice roo-roos and another similar sound that is
best described as a yodel. That one is just a pure joy sound - like they
just can't keep it inside anymore.

I find that schnauzers have a play style that not every other breed
understands. (And Friday was completely right to grrrr.) What most other
breeds (and their owners) think of as lunging or as a terrier attack, other
schnauzers react to as play. When meeting another schnauzer, they will
snarl and bark and "attack". Other schnauzers will react by matching the
snarling and then they'll be playmates. But like the boxer type of play,
it's not universally understood by others.

And, as I'm sure you know, even schnauzers don't have to be allowed to bark
just because they want to. They're great at raising an alarm. And they do
feed off each other to escalate the alarm level. And they (Sassy more than
Spenser) understand that as a pack they can be braver than alone. ("There's
two of us - I think we can take 'em.")
--
Judy
Spenser - Carbor Talk of the Town, AX, OAJ, NAC. NJC, NGC
Sassy - Can CH Carbor Back Talk, OA, OAJ, NAC, NJC, TN-N