Hi again folks,

Saskia (2 1/2-year-old Great Dane) gets a bout of gastroenteritis every
couple/few months, we think from eating swan poop or something in the
park. The first couple of times I took her to the vet, the next couple
of times I phoned the vet, the last few times I haven't bothered,
because it always follows the same course and clears up on its own in a
couple of days. This time, though, it seems a bit different. I don't
want to trot her off to the vet for simple gastroenteritis (we're broke
and she finds the vet VERY stressful even if we just pop in to pay a
bill and she never goes near an exam room), but I don't want to let
something dangerous go too long either. I'm looking for some informed
opinions on my planned course of action.

Symtoms: Saskia seemed fine until yesterday evening. In the afternoon
she was out of my sight in the small park a lot because I was following
our toddler around and Saskia was playing with a couple of good friends
of hers, so they kept charging up to the various humans to check in and
then disappearing as a small pack back into the shrubbery or over the
hill. She could well have eaten something she shouldn't. This park is
not known especially for human leavings like cooked chicken (like one
we used to go to in Amsterdam), but there is the occasional dropped
hamburger wrapper or dead fish or pile of swan poop or what have you.

About 6 hours after the trip to the park Saskia got very restless so I
took her for her last outing a bit early. She pooped normally, then
threw up quite a lot of food she'd eaten some hours earlier. She seemed
fine after that. Two hours later she threw up a bunch of foamy yellow
bile, and then seemed fine. That was at about 11:20 p.m. At midnight
she threw up more yellow bile and went right back to her bed, in a
normal sleepy dog way, not a run-for-security way. At 12:30 she had to
go out and had diarrhea, not a lot of it and not unusual looking. Then
she was fine again (sleeping normally) until about 5:30 a.m. when she
had to go out and have more diarrhea, and then threw up a tiny amount
more bile and once again seemed to feel fine.

(I have been withholding food for 14 hours now in accordance with the
usual advice for gastroenteritis, but she hasn't been going in there
looking for food anyway.) So then she acted just fine again, and by
8:30 was pretty bouncy and wanted her usual morning walk, so we went to
the other park, down the road--we usually do that one in the mornings
and the smaller one across the street in the afternoons. She had a bit
more diarrhea and didn't race around with the zoomies or anything but
she did seem to be feeling pretty OK, trotting about and cantering here
and there and checking out all her usual spots and trying to play with
a couple of elderly Westies that weren't having any of it. Back here,
she settled right back down on her bed, and flipped onto her back with
her feet in the air for a while, making faces at us. Then at about
11:00 a.m. she had some nearly unproductive vomiting, just trace
amounts of yellow bile.

Now it's 12:00. My plan has been to just keep a close eye on her, offer
her some bland food like rice when she hasn't had anything for 24
hours, and make sure she drinks some water. If symptoms haven't changed
in 48 hours I was planning to call the vet and see if they want her
brought in, and of course if anything seemed to get any worse I would
call right away, even at night. She does seem to feel a bit poorly but
she isn't all tucked up in pain or whining or anything, she just seems
to want to rest a fair bit. No fever, normal gums color, clear eyes,
etc. If any of us (toddler included) walk over to her bed, she rolls
onto her back, stretches all her toes out, and thumps her tail. Her
belly is not hard or distended, she had her usual gastrointestinal worm
meds just over a week ago, there are no heartworms in this country, and
she's only restless just before she vomits.

Does it sound to you folks like I should carry on with waiting and
observing?

--Katrina

in thread ups.com:
"ReturnOfSaskia" whittled the following words:


Does it sound to you folks like I should carry on with waiting and
observing?

--Katrina




It sounds like a bad plan to me. I'd take her to the vet. And I would
make her wear a muzzle in the park to avoid the things she does that cause
your vet bills in the future,if you are unable to physically keep her from
doing those things.

ReturnOfSaskia wrote:


Does it sound to you folks like I should carry on with waiting and
observing?

How good is your nighttime/weekend vet service, and can
you afford the extra charge?

Usually I take a dog to the vet if it seems to "feel bad." Hydration,
gum color, temperature, and capillary refill can all be perfect, and
the dog have something really wrong with it. I know it's
frustrating to jump the gun and have the vet not find anything,
but in this case I would choose to pay the exam fee and be on
the safe side.

Is this bitch spayed?

Gastroenteritis can be really frustrating--hard to figure out, I know.
I'd support the boiled rice idea, especially if it has some cottage
cheese or boiled white-meat chicken mixed in.

Amy Dahl

"ReturnOfSaskia" wrote in message
Does it sound to you folks like I should carry on with waiting and
observing?



That, of course, depends on your powers of observation, how comfortable you
are with your own gut feelings, and how willing you are to make a mistake by
waiting too long.

That said, one of my Wolfhounds had IBD and regularly had episodes similar
(but not identical) to those you described. After the first few years I
tended to wait with her also- withhold food and let it pass. When she got
hungry enough to want to eat, I loaded her with liquid Kaopectate- a turkey
baster full. It cut the feeling of hunger, soothed her stomach, and helped
dry up the last bits of diarrhea. The next time she begged for food I did it
again.The next time she would get a small handful of food so I could judge
her progress. In her case the rest to her system from lack of having to
digest food always worked. At her worst she never went longer than three
days without a full meal, and never experienced any negative consequences.

I'm not a vet and make no recommendations on how to treat medical problems-
this is just anecdotal, and worth exactly what you paid for it. Your vet
will counsel you on the best course of action for repeated yet somewhat
minor flare ups. My veterinarian knew the problems we had with this dog and
knew how we handled it. When we did take her in for treatment he just
flooded her with barium from both ends which has exactly the same effect as
the Kaopectate loading.
YMMV.



--
Toni
http://www.irish-wolfhounds.com

Thanks everyone. I'll try to answer all the questions/comments at once.


Yes, Saskia is spayed, and had a gastropexy at that time (9 months
old).

She has not vomited or attempted to vomit in many hours now, seems to
feel better, and had a little diarrhea a while ago but it was much less
explosive and seemed just like her other episodes, so I have decided
*for the moment* to keep monitoring her, but I will call the vet for a
phone consultation before they close today. It is on the advice of the
vet (a smallish hospital, thus very modern with several vets but not so
big as to be impersonal--they always remember Saskia and her specific
situations) that I don't bring her in for the usual anymore--she's had
several lab tests and complete examinations repeatedly. When I call
they always say, "Well, we never tell people NOT to come in, if they
feel the dog should be looked at, but in this case it would probably be
best to let things take their course for a day or three and drop by for
some pills if it's still going on". Only once have I ever needed to
drop by for some pills, quite a long time ago.

My gut feelings and observational skills are very good (in my opinion
and that of vets I have taken animals to when there was nothing
"obviously wrong" but it turned out there was something vet-worthy
going on; I also tend to err toward the paranoid, it's safer), good
enough anyway that I'm willing to risk a nighttime vet visit if
necessary--since she's not showing any warning signs of general misery
or bloat or that sort of situation and there's no sign of any color of
blood in her stool.

We have a 24-hour animal ambulance service that responds very quickly
and is volunteer-run and relatively inexpensive for what it is and
there's always a good vet on call within a 15 minute drive. The regular
vets take night and emergency duty on a rotational basis, and at such
times are more expensive but not outrageous--I remember being
pleasantly surprised by the bill (comparatively, you understand) when I
took Saskia in several months ago when she stepped on glass on a
Saturday night.

When I say we're broke that IS so, but we do have good overdraft
protection and if I come to feel she really should be seen of course
the money won't be a factor.

Muzzle--no, she would HATE that and before you say, "Doesn't she hate
THIS?", yes she does, but it may not be due to eating stuff anyway (vet
says it could be IBS, for example) and also yes, I CAN stop her--she
responds very well to "leave it". This has been a wake-up call that
what I need to do in the future is only pop the toddler out of the
stroller to run around in those areas of the other park where Saskia
will remain in sight while I follow him around.

Did I miss anything? Anyway, thank you again, folks. We'll see how
she's doing within the next 3 hours (that's when the regular vet
closes) but she does seem to be improving at the moment.

--Katrina

"ReturnOfSaskia" wrote in message
ups.com...
Muzzle--no, she would HATE that and before you say, "Doesn't she hate
THIS?", yes she does, but it may not be due to eating stuff anyway (vet
says it could be IBS, for example) and also yes, I CAN stop her--she
responds very well to "leave it". This has been a wake-up call that
what I need to do in the future is only pop the toddler out of the
stroller to run around in those areas of the other park where Saskia
will remain in sight while I follow him around.

I think this would be best. I have to admit that I actually gasped out loud
a little when I read your description of the pack of playing dogs charging
up to people and then going back to hide in the bushes. I don't know if you
live in a populated area, but where I live, behavior like this has caused
more than one lawsuit forcing the city to ban offlead dogs from public
spaces at all times. Its also *really* inconsiderate to others that are just
trying to enjoy the park. When we take our dogs into public spaces, we
(whether we like it or not) are presenting our dogs as ambassadors. People
walk away with opinions based on the bulk of their experiences. If people
feel that they can't comfortably and safely walk through the park without
being accosted by a pack of totally unsupervised dogs (and whether or not
they're "friendly" is irrelevant in this context), then they are going to
start complaining....and rightfully so, imo.

To me, dog runs are for forms of group play, if only because if the dogs
aren't being watched, at least they aren't at large. I feel that if one is
going to use an open area, it should be mainly for offlead play between
dogs and their owners/handlers. There are, of course, exceptions to this,
but far too many average joe owners think that as long as there is a group
of dogs entertaining their dog, they can pretty much mentally check out and
neglect their responsibilities as steward for their dog's behavior. Of
course, whether in an open space, or a dog run, the owner should *always* be
on top of things, but reality says that most owners just don't want to
bother. If that's the case, they should at least not ruin it for others and
go to an enclosed area where dogs are allowed to run, but where they won't
impose their out of control behavior on everyone else.

Take what I say with a grain of salt right now....I tend to rant before my
coffee has kicked in :-)

I'm glad your dog is feeling better so far. I hope that trend continues.

Tara

"ReturnOfSaskia" wrote in
ups.com:

Does it sound to you folks like I should carry on with waiting and
observing?


Hi Katrina,

Queenie gets these bouts (without the vomiting) -- I think it's from
getting really worked up about something and not being able to calm down.
For example, one time my tree guy came and did some work when I wasn't
home and I didn't come home for several hours after that. She couldn't
hold it and that was the beginning of an "episode."

I usually deprive her of food for 24 hours, then give her a small amount,
and increase the amounts if she continues to handle them well. If it goes
on past 2-3 days, I take her in, although I would be mighty pleased if
the vet would just acknowledge that this happens and hand over the
metronizadol, which always does the trick almost instantly.

--
Catherine
& Zoe the cockerchow
& Queenie the black gold retriever
& Max the Pomeranian
& Rosalie the calico

Actually I agree with you but did not provide enough detail. This is a
park specifically and obviously posted as a dog-running area, and the
people they were charging up to were owners of these dogs--Saskia would
leave the group as they passed me and give me a head tap and then
re-join the fun and the others were doing that too with their own
people. Dogs there do often greet people just going for a walk (there
is also a large section NOT for offlead fun, by the way) but they
mostly do it politely (sure, there are a few bad apples)--and Saskia
doesn't because she's shy. Most of the time the "pack" is in pursuit of
a ball or stick anyway; we all throw them.

Update on the medical problem: she is still doing both things and I
spotted a streak of blood in some of the diarrhea, so I collected a
sample and have an appointment in 2 hours with the evening vet. It'll
be fun going there with a toddler and a Great Dane on the train instead
of dinner time, but so it goes.

--Katrina



TaraG wrote:
"ReturnOfSaskia" wrote in message
ups.com...
Muzzle--no, she would HATE that and before you say, "Doesn't she hate
THIS?", yes she does, but it may not be due to eating stuff anyway (vet
says it could be IBS, for example) and also yes, I CAN stop her--she
responds very well to "leave it". This has been a wake-up call that
what I need to do in the future is only pop the toddler out of the
stroller to run around in those areas of the other park where Saskia
will remain in sight while I follow him around.

I think this would be best. I have to admit that I actually gasped out loud
a little when I read your description of the pack of playing dogs charging
up to people and then going back to hide in the bushes. I don't know if you
live in a populated area, but where I live, behavior like this has caused
more than one lawsuit forcing the city to ban offlead dogs from public
spaces at all times. Its also *really* inconsiderate to others that are just
trying to enjoy the park. When we take our dogs into public spaces, we
(whether we like it or not) are presenting our dogs as ambassadors. People
walk away with opinions based on the bulk of their experiences. If people
feel that they can't comfortably and safely walk through the park without
being accosted by a pack of totally unsupervised dogs (and whether or not
they're "friendly" is irrelevant in this context), then they are going to
start complaining....and rightfully so, imo.

To me, dog runs are for forms of group play, if only because if the dogs
aren't being watched, at least they aren't at large. I feel that if one is
going to use an open area, it should be mainly for offlead play between
dogs and their owners/handlers. There are, of course, exceptions to this,
but far too many average joe owners think that as long as there is a group
of dogs entertaining their dog, they can pretty much mentally check out and
neglect their responsibilities as steward for their dog's behavior. Of
course, whether in an open space, or a dog run, the owner should *always* be
on top of things, but reality says that most owners just don't want to
bother. If that's the case, they should at least not ruin it for others and
go to an enclosed area where dogs are allowed to run, but where they won't
impose their out of control behavior on everyone else.

Take what I say with a grain of salt right now....I tend to rant before my
coffee has kicked in :-)

I'm glad your dog is feeling better so far. I hope that trend continues.

Tara

Thanks. That sort of stress doesn't usually bring it on in her--thank
goodness, because we're in teh (hopefully) closing stages of a
Psychotic Landlady Drama, the upstairs neighbor is moving, a new one
moves in tomorrow, and they're building a bridge across the street, so
Nervous Nellie Saskia is always jumping to the window and giving, as a
James Herriott character stated, "a bit of a woof".

Our vet does just give the drugs in Saskia's case if I describe the
same symptoms as usual (the vomiting is not as usual)--might be that
drug, I'd have to look in her files, probably is--but usually I don't
need it, and in this case think now that a prompt exam is important.

I've decided we'll walk--Saskia is having no problem or discomfort in
that regard, Walter could then ride in the stroller instead of the
backpack (thus making snacks and an activity center realistic options
and redusing wear and tear on my occasionally wonky hip), and it looks
on the map like it won't take more than 40 minutes each way. If I'm
wrong and it's a serious hassle to get there we can train back--there's
always someone willing to help out with a stroller as far as boarding
and disembarking go.
--Katrina



ceb wrote:
"ReturnOfSaskia" wrote in
ups.com:

Does it sound to you folks like I should carry on with waiting and
observing?


Hi Katrina,

Queenie gets these bouts (without the vomiting) -- I think it's from
getting really worked up about something and not being able to calm down.
For example, one time my tree guy came and did some work when I wasn't
home and I didn't come home for several hours after that. She couldn't
hold it and that was the beginning of an "episode."

I usually deprive her of food for 24 hours, then give her a small amount,
and increase the amounts if she continues to handle them well. If it goes
on past 2-3 days, I take her in, although I would be mighty pleased if
the vet would just acknowledge that this happens and hand over the
metronizadol, which always does the trick almost instantly.

--
Catherine
& Zoe the cockerchow
& Queenie the black gold retriever
& Max the Pomeranian
& Rosalie the calico

"ReturnOfSaskia" wrote in message
ups.com...
Actually I agree with you but did not provide enough detail.

Ahhh, then please forgive my very precaffeinated rant earlier. Sounds like
your earlier assessment was spot on, though, in that you need to be
interacting and watching her more closely while there. Thanks so much for
clarifying what's going on and for not getting snarky with my judgemental
rant! :-)

Update on the medical problem: she is still doing both things and I
spotted a streak of blood in some of the diarrhea, so I collected a
sample and have an appointment in 2 hours with the evening vet. It'll
be fun going there with a toddler and a Great Dane on the train instead
of dinner time, but so it goes.

I'm sorry to hear that she's not improving. I'd say that trip to the vet is
a really good idea. Please let us know how that turns out.

Tara