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  #1  
Old September 2nd 06, 10:45 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Judy
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Posts: 1,411
Default Dogs and Cat

You would think I would know exactly what to do and how to do this but it
honestly has never been an issue in my life before.

We are making plans for a move to a house that will be large enough for DH
and me, my mother (with COPD and Alzheimer's) and my adult brother (who has
been living with Mom).

We have two adult schnauzers (five years old) - who have never lived with a
cat. When they see one they get very excited. And if the cat should RUN,
well, you know they have to give chase. They do kill rabbits and such when
they catch them in our yard.

My brother has an adult cat (eight/nine years old?) who, as a kitten until
about two years old, lived with dogs but based on her reaction when we visit
my mother's house, she has forgotten. She was de-clawed by a previous
owner. She is not a terribly friendly cat - never sits on laps, tolerates
limited petting and then only on her own terms. She does hang out sometimes
with my brother and mother in the same room and likes to be talked to by
them. Other people send her into hiding.

I have had dogs and cats together most of my life. We just threw them all
together and they quickly worked it out and almost always became friends of
sorts.

My brother's vet suggested putting the cat in a cage (this is a cat who
HATES being crated) and then letting the dogs into the room to get used to
her while she's being protected. I can't agree that this is going to work -
especially because of the cat's reaction. I would expect her to be
terrified both by the crate and by the dogs sniffing and (knowing Sassy as I
do) trying to dig their way into the crate.

DH says we will take the introductions slowly and just be vigilant until the
dogs understand that the cat is not vermin to be chased. I can see that
possibly working - knowing that we should probably never plan to leave them
all loose alone in the house. But, boy, would I feel terrible if something
happened to the cat.

Brother is not concerned about it (although it's clearly his cat who would
have the greatest adjustment to make). Like me, he grew up with dogs and
cats all living together and getting along.

Mom is concerned about it (we have always kept them apart when visiting) but
with her memory losses, she is just as likely to try to stir the dogs up
just because.

The house could have a place where the cat can be safe and it can be a
dog-free zone. But the dogs will be allowed in all the other living areas
of the house. Which are also the places where the people will be hanging
out.

Any tried and true tricks to introduce these animals and help them achieve
some sort of truce?

Thanks,
Judy


  #2  
Old September 2nd 06, 10:59 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Melinda Shore
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Posts: 7,732
Default Dogs and Cat

In article ,
Judy wrote:
We are making plans for a move to a house that will be large enough for DH
and me, my mother (with COPD and Alzheimer's) and my adult brother (who has
been living with Mom).


Wow. Best wishes for the move! Are you staying in the same
area?

Any tried and true tricks to introduce these animals and help them achieve
some sort of truce?


My experience with the Siberians and cats is that it can be
done up to a point. The interactions have to be heavily
supervised until it's clear that the dog gets the idea, and
the dog has to get a clear, unambiguous message that he's
not allowed to mess with the cat. It's the only time I've
gotten ferocious with my dogs, but my guys are so predatory
and the stakes were so high (the cats lives) that I wasn't
willing to take undue risks.

Here's the point at which it became untenable: Crow and
Eclipse came into the household together and were (and are)
bonded like crazy. They tend to amplify each other's
behavior and that sets off the others, so that, for example,
Cinder, who's usually loathe to do anything that might
attract negative attention, started going after the cats
when she saw Crow stalking them. So, we were good up to six
dogs, then Duncan died and the two girls came in and upset
the cat situation. The cats are now living in the main
barn.

I don't know your dogs or your situation, but I would think
that your dogs could learn to be fine with the cats. The
main problem I ran into was packy behavior from the dogs.
Otherwise, I've got photos of Image asleep with her head on
Moby George (cat), and similar with the other dogs (Martha
[other cat] was much more circumspect around the dogs).
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Bad policies lead to bad results.
  #3  
Old September 2nd 06, 11:01 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
[email protected]
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Posts: 76
Default Dogs and Cat


Judy wrote:
Any tried and true tricks to introduce these animals and help them
achieve
some sort of truce?



I was once told to put the cat in a room with the door closed. They
will be able to smell each other threw the door. If there is a crack
under the door even better. Leave them this way until both parties are
calm and the dogs can go by the door with out getting all excited. This
gives them a chance to get use to each others scent saftly. Could take
a couple of days. From there try and introduce them in person.

  #4  
Old September 2nd 06, 11:31 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Suja
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Posts: 873
Default Dogs and Cat


"Judy" wrote in message:

We have two adult schnauzers (five years old) - who have never lived with

a
cat. When they see one they get very excited. And if the cat should RUN,
well, you know they have to give chase. They do kill rabbits and such

when
they catch them in our yard.


Good luck with the move, the new living arrangement and the cat, Judy. I
just wanted to say that just because they do all of the above does not mean
that can't learn to live with cats. Khan, chaser and killer of four legged
edibles, is *highly* interested in cats, will chase cats that run, but won't
hurt them as long as they are indoor cats. Our vet's office has 'house
cats', and he just likes to stick his nose into their fur, and inhale
deeply. Hope it turns out to be the same with your two.

Diane has archived rpd* collective wisdom WRT cats and dogs he
http://www.dogplay.com/Behavior/cats.html There are a couple of other links
that deal with the issue as well.

Suja


  #5  
Old September 3rd 06, 01:43 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Judy
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Posts: 1,411
Default Dogs and Cat

"Melinda Shore" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Judy wrote:
We are making plans for a move to a house that will be large enough for DH
and me, my mother (with COPD and Alzheimer's) and my adult brother (who
has
been living with Mom).


Wow. Best wishes for the move! Are you staying in the same
area?


The plan is just up across the border here. Kind of split the distance
between the mother here (who is at home and enrolled in hospice because of
heart problems) and the familiar area for the other mother. It will mean
changing states for us - which means not only all those licenses to change
but also our health insurance (which is something I've been avoiding doing
for too long anyway). So assuming we can find a place, which so far hasn't
been easy, it'll be SE Tioga County. That'll put us about 15 miles from the
PA mother and not a whole lot further for my brother to drive to his job in
Broome County.

We need someplace with at least four bedrooms and a minimum of three baths.
Both a living room and a family room - so we have room to get away from each
other at least a little bit. Room to park at least four cars in and out of
garages. And DH refuses to be in a development on a tiny lot. And he also
insists that the basement have at least two ways out - even if it's not used
as living space. At least one bedroom and bath must be on the main level.
Must be enough level space on the lot to be able to set up some agility
equipment.

And we need it NOW. We can do remodelling after we move in but we need to
get the whole process underway ASAP. Tomorrow wouldn't be too soon.

My experience with the Siberians and cats is that it can be
done up to a point. The interactions have to be heavily
supervised until it's clear that the dog gets the idea, and
the dog has to get a clear, unambiguous message that he's
not allowed to mess with the cat.


We actually at one point had a rescued flying squirrel in the house and
taught the two beagles to ignore it. The cat had to be removed from the
house when the squirrel was out of his cage but the beagles were able to
pretend it didn't even exist. It was even safe to let the flying squirrel
have the run of the house at night while we and the dogs slept.

The
main problem I ran into was packy behavior from the dogs.


This is one of my concerns. Either dog alone would be easier. When they
are together, there is a definite pack thing going on and they are convinced
they can do things together that they can't do alone - both "can" and
"allowed". ("There's two of us - we can take on that Great Dane!")

Otherwise, I've got photos of Image asleep with her head on
Moby George (cat), and similar with the other dogs (Martha
[other cat] was much more circumspect around the dogs).


This has always been my experience. Either they become friends or they
reach a sort of agreement to coexist. Our previous schnauzer came into a
household that already had a cat. The cat smacked him around the first
couple of days. Then the puppy fought back. And then there was peace. You
would think they didn't even notice each other except that at least a couple
of times a winter, cabin fever would strike and they would chase each other
round and round the house for ten minutes or so - all clearly in play.

I think the basis for my concern is that the cat is not very social - either
toward people or toward other animals. And if the cat were forced to stay
in one or two rooms, it would upset my mother. Plus she'd forget and open
the doors.

It's going to be interesting. As in the old Chinese proverb/curse, "May you
have an interesting life".

Judy



  #6  
Old September 3rd 06, 01:50 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Judy
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Posts: 1,411
Default Dogs and Cat

"Suja" wrote in message
news:mknKg.6687$SZ3.2887@dukeread04...
I
just wanted to say that just because they do all of the above does not
mean
that can't learn to live with cats. Khan, chaser and killer of four
legged
edibles, is *highly* interested in cats, will chase cats that run, but
won't
hurt them as long as they are indoor cats.


We had friends who had a boxer and three Siamese. The dog would not leave
the barn cats alone but if you said "Get the kitty" when he was inside, he
would run frantically from door to door looking, totally ignoring the cats
on the couch. They weren't cats in his mind.

Hope it turns out to be the same with your two.


I hope so too.

I think we're going to try to put them together a little before the move.
While the cat is in a house where she knows all the hiding places.

Diane has archived rpd* collective wisdom WRT cats and dogs he
http://www.dogplay.com/Behavior/cats.html There are a couple of other
links
that deal with the issue as well.


Diane. Of course. I will definitely check that out.

Judy


  #7  
Old September 3rd 06, 07:04 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Paula
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Posts: 1,726
Default Dogs and Cat

On Sat, 2 Sep 2006 17:45:07 -0400, "Judy"
wrote:

Any tried and true tricks to introduce these animals and help them achieve
some sort of truce?


I think it was Cindy Tittle Moore who had a whole post devoted to
helping dogs and cats get along that I used to share with adopters who
had cats. Here is one discussion I googled up that seemed relevant,
but I haven't read through all of it so it may or may not be that
helpful for your specific situation. Good luck!

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.p...e9fb8b 4a5636
--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
  #8  
Old September 3rd 06, 01:22 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Melinda Shore
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Posts: 7,732
Default Dogs and Cat

In article ,
Judy wrote:
The plan is just up across the border here. Kind of split the distance
between the mother here (who is at home and enrolled in hospice because of
heart problems) and the familiar area for the other mother. It will mean
changing states for us - which means not only all those licenses to change
but also our health insurance (which is something I've been avoiding doing
for too long anyway).


Well, at least you know the area very well and are well-
positioned to make good choices. I love living in rural
NY. Last month my mother and I did a day trip to Scranton
and passed through the area you're talking about, and it
surely is beautiful (although my mother wasn't really
knocked out when I said "Behold - the Binghamton skyline!").
I know a dressage trainer in Appalachin who has a really,
really pretty farm on a hilltop. It's gorgeous (and quiet)
out there.

I think the basis for my concern is that the cat is not very social - either
toward people or toward other animals. And if the cat were forced to stay
in one or two rooms, it would upset my mother. Plus she'd forget and open
the doors.


I was lucky with George, to a point. He helped train the
dogs by parking himself in the middle of hallways and
smacking the dogs as they passed. The dogs found this
intimidating (George is HUGE). Unfortunately Martha's
reticence led to some prey-like behavior that Crow and
Eclipse found very provocative.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Bad policies lead to bad results.
  #9  
Old September 3rd 06, 02:48 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Judy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,411
Default Dogs and Cat

"Melinda Shore" wrote in message
...
Well, at least you know the area very well and are well-
positioned to make good choices.


And we know it even better now after driving up and down every road in the
area to see what's there. We have found a house which may or may not be for
sale. We (and and our real estate agent) haven't been able to get in touch
with the owners. We have a phone number and an address (they don't live at
the property) but haven't made a connection yet. The house would need a
bunch of updating (it hasn't been lived in for years) and likely some
remodelling (and contractors in that area are in rather short supply since
the June flooding). My goal for this weekend is to get hold of the owners
and either get some talks going or be able to cross it off our list and stop
thinking about.

I really hope we can work something out with the owners. It's in an area
that we *really* like and we actually have some friends in the immediate
area - close enough to walk the dogs over and share agility equipment. The
house could be worked on and made pretty close to perfect. And it would
resell well in a few years (this arrangement is for the "duration" only).

And I really need a positive direction to focus on. I spent yesterday doing
nothing positive and it gives me too much time to think and I get depressed.
Today I'm cleaning closets and throwing stuff into a pile for the landfill.

I love living in rural NY.


I prefer rural PA - mostly because of the tax differences. But for some
financial reasons concerning my mother, it needs to be in NY. Otherwise,
we'd be looking *just* over the line on the cheaper side of the border.

Last month my mother and I did a day trip to Scranton
and passed through the area you're talking about, and it
surely is beautiful (although my mother wasn't really
knocked out when I said "Behold - the Binghamton skyline!").


Although we moved a lot around NYS, the majority of my growing up years were
in Broome County - southside Binghamton, Maine, Endwell, Endicott. It has
the feeling of "home" for me as much as any place.

Scranton? As my father would say "Well, I guess Scranton is okay if you
can't do Newark". (Insert appropriate city names to personalize.)

I know a dressage trainer in Appalachin who has a really,
really pretty farm on a hilltop. It's gorgeous (and quiet)
out there.


One of our requirements is to be close to 17 but far enough away that we
don't hear the trucks rumbliing at night.

I was lucky with George, to a point. He helped train the
dogs by parking himself in the middle of hallways and
smacking the dogs as they passed. The dogs found this
intimidating (George is HUGE). Unfortunately Martha's
reticence led to some prey-like behavior that Crow and
Eclipse found very provocative.


I need a George. Then I'd know we could handle it. Unfortunately, what we
have is a Martha. And one without claws at that. That's nice because I
don't have to worry about the dogs getting an eye scratched but makes it
harder for them to recognize the wake-up call.

Judy


  #10  
Old September 3rd 06, 03:08 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Melinda Shore
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,732
Default Dogs and Cat

In article ,
Judy wrote:
Scranton? As my father would say "Well, I guess Scranton is okay if you
can't do Newark". (Insert appropriate city names to personalize.)


That was certainly the impression we were left with. My
mother's father was born in Scranton and we have a bunch of
family buried in the old Jewish cemetery, which was recently
restored. We also have the address at which he was born,
from an old census record. Her brother died a few months
ago and this has been a, emotional, nostalgic time for my
mom, so we drove down to check things out. We found the
family headstones and the cemetery was in good condition,
but the alley where he'd been born had been "urban renewed"
and then the urban renewal had been abandoned, so it was
crappy and disappointing. When we were in Toronto we also
visited the area where she grew up, and the people who had
the shop that had been my great-grandfather's and over which
my mother and the rest of the family had lived let us wander
around a bit. We also went to her elementary school, to
their old shul, and so on. That was great, but Scranton was
a let-down.

I need a George. Then I'd know we could handle it. Unfortunately, what we
have is a Martha. And one without claws at that. That's nice because I
don't have to worry about the dogs getting an eye scratched but makes it
harder for them to recognize the wake-up call.


You'd think that if they could deal with the squirrel they
wouldn't bat an eye at the cat, but I suppose it depends on
the cat.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Bad policies lead to bad results.
 




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