On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 06:55:04 -0500, diddy wrote:

The following site mentions:
http://dogs.about.com/cs/basictraining/a/alpha_roll.htm "The only reason
that a dog will FORCEFULLY flip another dog over on its back is to kill
the animal. By forcing an animal to submit in that way you are literally
putting the fear of death into them, they think you are trying to kill
them.

I have seen my dogs alpha roll each other, then sit on them. This would
make the above statement SO wrong, and misleading. My dogs have no
intention of killing the other dog when they alpha roll them.

I think you may be making the same mistake that the original observers
made.

Dominant dogs don't force submissive dogs to roll, submissive dogs offer
the roll to dominant dogs.

--
Government does not solve problems - it subsidizes them.
- Ronald Reagan

"Jeff Dege" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 06:55:04 -0500, diddy wrote:

The following site mentions:
http://dogs.about.com/cs/basictraining/a/alpha_roll.htm "The only reason
that a dog will FORCEFULLY flip another dog over on its back is to kill
the animal. By forcing an animal to submit in that way you are literally
putting the fear of death into them, they think you are trying to kill
them.

I have seen my dogs alpha roll each other, then sit on them. This would
make the above statement SO wrong, and misleading. My dogs have no
intention of killing the other dog when they alpha roll them.

I think you may be making the same mistake that the original observers
made.

Dominant dogs don't force submissive dogs to roll, submissive dogs offer
the roll to dominant dogs.

--
Government does not solve problems - it subsidizes them.
- Ronald Reagan
==============
I have to agree with your statement regarding dominant dogs do not force
submissive dogs to roll. When my dog meets another dog, I notice that many
times, the other dog, especially if the dog is young, will instantly roll
over. Some dogs will put their hair up, growl and run, which is the worst
thing, because my dog then chases it; the meeting that works out the best
with my dog is the calm dog that does not run and does not roll, but just
stands there with my dog with no fear or fight in him. They get along the
best.
============

"pfoley" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Jeff Dege" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 06:55:04 -0500, diddy wrote:

The following site mentions:
http://dogs.about.com/cs/basictraining/a/alpha_roll.htm "The only
reason
that a dog will FORCEFULLY flip another dog over on its back is to
kill
the animal. By forcing an animal to submit in that way you are
literally
putting the fear of death into them, they think you are trying to kill
them.

I have seen my dogs alpha roll each other, then sit on them. This
would
make the above statement SO wrong, and misleading. My dogs have no
intention of killing the other dog when they alpha roll them.

I think you may be making the same mistake that the original observers
made.

Dominant dogs don't force submissive dogs to roll, submissive dogs offer
the roll to dominant dogs.

--
Government does not solve problems - it subsidizes them.
- Ronald Reagan
==============
I have to agree with your statement regarding dominant dogs do not force
submissive dogs to roll. When my dog meets another dog, I notice that
many
times, the other dog, especially if the dog is young, will instantly roll
over. Some dogs will put their hair up, growl and run, which is the worst
thing, because my dog then chases it; the meeting that works out the best
with my dog is the calm dog that does not run and does not roll, but just
stands there with my dog with no fear or fight in him. They get along the
best.
============
I will say this though, she does bump into other dogs with her chest; she
muscles them around a lot, which a lot of dogs don't like. I suppose this
is a sign of asserting her dominance, also.
--------------

pfoley wrote:

I will say this though, she does bump into other dogs with her chest; she
muscles them around a lot, which a lot of dogs don't like. I suppose this
is a sign of asserting her dominance, also.

Why do you let her do that?

--
Shelly (Warning: see label for details)
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 07:11:44 -0500, diddy
wrote:



Well, Then what are my dogs doing, when they roll over another dog, and
either sit on them, or stand over them with barred teeth, or hold their
mouth over their testicles and give a low growl?

Why on earth do you let your dogs do that?

Mustang Sally

sighthounds & siberians wrote:
On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 07:11:44 -0500, diddy
wrote:

Well, Then what are my dogs doing, when they roll over another dog, and
either sit on them, or stand over them with barred teeth, or hold their
mouth over their testicles and give a low growl?

Why on earth do you let your dogs do that?

It certainly makes one wonder who the, um, "alpha" is.

And, what sort of value do dogs place on testicles? Diddy has
mentioned this behavior before. It's the only time I've ever heard
of a dog threatening another dog's testicles.

--
Shelly (Warning: see label for details)
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

diddy wrote:

That doesn't mean the behavior "never happens"

because it apparently "has"

I didn't say it "never happens."

--
Shelly (Warning: see label for details)
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 10:10:02 -0400, shelly
wrote:

sighthounds & siberians wrote:
On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 07:11:44 -0500, diddy
wrote:

Well, Then what are my dogs doing, when they roll over another dog, and
either sit on them, or stand over them with barred teeth, or hold their
mouth over their testicles and give a low growl?

Why on earth do you let your dogs do that?

It certainly makes one wonder who the, um, "alpha" is.

Well, I understand about letting dogs sort out who's going to fit
where, but I wouldn't allow a dog to do that.

And, what sort of value do dogs place on testicles? Diddy has
mentioned this behavior before. It's the only time I've ever heard
of a dog threatening another dog's testicles.

There aren't generally any canine testicles in residence here, but
we've certainly had intact dogs, and I know lots of people who have
intact dogs, but have never seen or heard of testicle-threatening
either.

Mustang Sally

On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 07:11:44 -0500, diddy wrote:

in thread news whittled the following words:


I think you may be making the same mistake that the original observers
made.

Dominant dogs don't force submissive dogs to roll, submissive dogs offer
the roll to dominant dogs.

Well, Then what are my dogs doing, when they roll over another dog, and
either sit on them, or stand over them with barred teeth, or hold their
mouth over their testicles and give a low growl?

What would you call that?

It usually happens when a new dog, makes an aggressive move against one of
the existing pack. When it finishes, no one is hurt, but the aggressor
"IS" put down by the pack leader of my pack.

Ok, if that is NOT an alpha roll. What "is" it?

I'm not saying the dogs don't growl, bare teeth, etc., to try
to demonstrate dominance (though it's usually the middle ranked dogs that
do this - the alphas seem to be more secure in their rankings).

I'm saying that the roll is an appeasement signal that the submissive
offers in response to a dominance threat. It's a signal of submission. A
dog who wants to establish dominance will initiate a dominance signal, the
other dog will roll over to indicate acceptance of the subordinate
position, or will respond with a challenge.

The only time a dog will try to force a dog onto its back is when it's
trying to kill it. Which is why so many handlers who've tried to force
rolls have been bitten.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_articles/yielding.html



--
It is the invariable habit of bureaucracies, at all times and everywhere,
to assume...that every citizen is a criminal. Their one apparent
purpose, pursued with a relentless and furious diligence, is to convert
the assumption into a fact. They hunt endlessly for proofs, and, when
proofs are lacking, for mere suspicions. The moment they become aware
of a definite citizen, John Doe, seeking what is his right under the law,
they begin searching feverishly for an excuse for withholding it from him.
-- H.L. Mencken

in thread news whittled the following words:

I'm not saying the dogs don't growl, bare teeth, etc., to try
to demonstrate dominance (though it's usually the middle ranked dogs
that do this - the alphas seem to be more secure in their rankings).
Danny was VERY secure in his ranking. But a bullshit gene was not in his
makeup.
And he DID put dogs down. I was doing a lot of dog rescue and rehab at the
time, and when a dog who thought he was dominant came in, tried to take
over, Danny put him down. He never laid a tooth on him But he threatened
to.

And bitches that would come in and start something.. he'd put them down
too.
I saw the alpha roll done by the alpha dog very frequently.
I even saw him a great dane,intact adult male down. Although I suspect
there may have been a submissive roll over on that one, because to think
that Danny could have caused that himself just makes no sense.
Reka still will initiate an Alpha roll on a errant dog. She will roll
emover, and sit on them, just as was taught to her, by Danny.
Don't tell me it isn't so.It IS.

I'm saying that the roll is an appeasement signal that the submissive
offers in response to a dominance threat. It's a signal of
submission. A dog who wants to establish dominance will initiate a
dominance signal, the other dog will roll over to indicate acceptance
of the subordinate position, or will respond with a challenge.
I think the rollover IS an appeasement signal by a less dominant dog. I've
seen that too.But these are entirely two different behaviors and causes.

The only time a dog will try to force a dog onto its back is when it's
trying to kill it.
That may be what that web site SAYS, but they are WRONG
Any website can be wrong.

I can make a website that will correct that for you, if you wish.
Danny never killed any dog. He never even bit any dog. He abhored fighting.
He did not allow it. He did, however, tell the offending dog what he did
allow, and what he didn't by putting them down.
He would stand over them for about 30 seconds, and walk away.

Which is why so many handlers who've tried to
force rolls have been bitten.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_articles/yielding.html