So, I've had to spend a lot more time in the dog run lately, and I've
suddenly been inundated with people who tell me all about how much they love
CMs shows.

In the interest of science, I save my opinions about his methods for the end
of the conversation.

If they like his show, they invariably offer that they've tried his methods
and like them (that what they've tried hasn't always worked, or has even had
less than great impacts on the dogs seems to be a different issue
altogether). At that point, I ask if they ever noticed a disclaimer on the
show.

So far, no one has said that they saw it. Not one. And this is from asking
no less than 10 people in the last three days. When I mention that it *is*
apparently there (and that it says to NOT try this without the supervision
of a professional), they all got uncomfortable, most recovered from the
discomfort immediately and popped out with "I can't see why anyone would
need to do that with a professional, I mean, he shows you just how to do
it"....and yes, this is a direct quote from one person). At this time, I
point out that Cesar is an *amazing* handler in his own right, who may, or
may not, even know exactly *why* what he's doing works.....but that his own
skills are so honed that he would have a good effect on a dog, even when
someone else doing the same thing might really do damage.

so far, 7 out of 10 walked away basically saying that they like his show,
and will continue to apply his techniques to the dogs in their care (5 of
these people were dog walkers applying the methods to OTHER people's dogs,
by the way). 2 decided to take a class (I wasn't pushing mine, and in fact
for one of them, I recommended she speak with Karen Overall for a behavior
problem that needs addressing outside of a class setting), and one is
interested in watching further with a more critical eye (and promised to
look out for the disclaimers.

The woman I met just today has just adopted a 6 month old puppy. She's been
looking for puppy classes in the area because she really wants a highly
trained dog that she can trust offlead. Apparently people keep telling her
not to bother, but tell her to watch his show and she'll learn how to train
her puppy.

I've really changed my stance on *him* personally over the last couple of
months (for the better), but the producers are, IMO, being *really*
irresponsible if that many people are walking away with the impression that
this is a show where you can learn basic dog training skills and apply them
to any dog you want.

Tara

"TaraG" wrote in message
news:fK0Ng.6632$wj2.887@trndny06...
So, I've had to spend a lot more time in the dog run lately, and I've
suddenly been inundated with people who tell me all about how much they
love
CMs shows.

In the interest of science, I save my opinions about his methods for the
end
of the conversation.

If they like his show, they invariably offer that they've tried his
methods
and like them (that what they've tried hasn't always worked, or has even
had
less than great impacts on the dogs seems to be a different issue
altogether). At that point, I ask if they ever noticed a disclaimer on the
show.

So far, no one has said that they saw it. Not one. And this is from asking
no less than 10 people in the last three days. When I mention that it *is*
apparently there (and that it says to NOT try this without the supervision
of a professional), they all got uncomfortable, most recovered from the
discomfort immediately and popped out with "I can't see why anyone would
need to do that with a professional, I mean, he shows you just how to do
it"....and yes, this is a direct quote from one person). At this time, I
point out that Cesar is an *amazing* handler in his own right, who may, or
may not, even know exactly *why* what he's doing works.....but that his
own
skills are so honed that he would have a good effect on a dog, even when
someone else doing the same thing might really do damage.

so far, 7 out of 10 walked away basically saying that they like his show,
and will continue to apply his techniques to the dogs in their care (5 of
these people were dog walkers applying the methods to OTHER people's dogs,
by the way). 2 decided to take a class (I wasn't pushing mine, and in fact
for one of them, I recommended she speak with Karen Overall for a behavior
problem that needs addressing outside of a class setting), and one is
interested in watching further with a more critical eye (and promised to
look out for the disclaimers.

The woman I met just today has just adopted a 6 month old puppy. She's
been
looking for puppy classes in the area because she really wants a highly
trained dog that she can trust offlead. Apparently people keep telling her
not to bother, but tell her to watch his show and she'll learn how to
train
her puppy.

I've really changed my stance on *him* personally over the last couple of
months (for the better), but the producers are, IMO, being *really*
irresponsible if that many people are walking away with the impression
that
this is a show where you can learn basic dog training skills and apply
them
to any dog you want.

Tara
=====
But Cesar is not a dog trainer and does not claim to be one; he is a dog
behavior expert and his objective is to help build a healthier relationship
between the dog and its owner, and as he puts it, build a contented and more
balanced dog, using exercise, discipline and affection. So, for anyone
using Cesar's methods for dog behaviour, there is still the necessity for
the dog to be obedience trained by a professional dog trainer; one does not
negate the other. They're two separate things.
--------

"pfoley" wrote in message
nk.net...

=====
But Cesar is not a dog trainer and does not claim to be one; he is a dog
behavior expert and his objective is to help build a healthier
relationship
between the dog and its owner, and as he puts it, build a contented and
more
balanced dog, using exercise, discipline and affection. So, for anyone
using Cesar's methods for dog behaviour, there is still the necessity for
the dog to be obedience trained by a professional dog trainer; one does
not
negate the other. They're two separate things.

You can argue that point forever, but the fact remains that people are
clearly misinterpreting that fact far, FAR too often.

Tara

rOn Sun, 10 Sep 2006 23:30:10 GMT, "pfoley" wrote:

But Cesar is not a dog trainer and does not claim to be one; he is a dog
behavior expert

I'd say that's pretty much exactly backwards. He's teaches people how
to work with their dogs. He does not do *any* sort of behavior
modification on dogs.

there is still the necessity for
the dog to be obedience trained by a professional dog trainer;

I don't know anyone who has a dog that was obedience trained by a
professional dog trainer.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

The gods too are fond of a joke.
-- Aristotle

You can argue that point forever, but the fact remains that people are
clearly misinterpreting that fact far, FAR too often.

Tara

Not to mention, people watch the show and think he fixes their dogs in
under 10 minutes.
I have never seen one of this showes where he doesn't have a dog on a
leash laying at his feet in under 5 minutes or walking nicely by his
side.
Honestly he makes it all look far to easy. Almost like a magic fix.
Sometimes they even put up a timer to show how fast he can make a dog
walk correctly next to him, but I never see a timer on the ones that
take a long time or won't do it at all.

Does the man ever fail? Has he ever come up against a dog that won't
walk for him or lay calmly for him?

"Shelly" wrote in message
...
rOn Sun, 10 Sep 2006 23:30:10 GMT, "pfoley" wrote:

But Cesar is not a dog trainer and does not claim to be one; he is a dog
behavior expert

I'd say that's pretty much exactly backwards. He's teaches people how
to work with their dogs. He does not do *any* sort of behavior
modification on dogs.

there is still the necessity for
the dog to be obedience trained by a professional dog trainer;

I don't know anyone who has a dog that was obedience trained by a
professional dog trainer.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

The gods too are fond of a joke.
-- Aristotle
=
My dog was.

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 22:56:11 GMT, "TaraG"
wrote:

I've really changed my stance on *him* personally over the last couple of
months (for the better), but the producers are, IMO, being *really*
irresponsible if that many people are walking away with the impression that
this is a show where you can learn basic dog training skills and apply them
to any dog you want.

Cesar may be a spectacular handler (he sure seems to have a good touch),
but if there is a problem with his show, he is partially responsible for
it. No one held a gun to his head and forced him to make phat stax of
cash by tarting himself up as some sort of "Dog Whisperer" (whatever on
earth *that* means).

Interesting that the folks you've talked to don't see the disclaimer,
and don't understand that this is not a "how to" show. That just
underlines the original-original point I brought up about whether it's
meant to be entertainment or informational, and how the distinction--or
lack thereof--matters.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

When a Cabbage Patch baby dies, I think we all feel the pain.
-- Melora Creager

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 23:40:22 GMT, "pfoley" wrote:

My dog was.

Somehow, that fails to surprise me.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

Dreams are like water, colourless and dangerous.
-- This Mortal Coil, The Lacemaker

"TaraG" wrote in message
news:lf1Ng.2417$rc3.2233@trndny03...

"pfoley" wrote in message
nk.net...

=====
But Cesar is not a dog trainer and does not claim to be one; he is a dog
behavior expert and his objective is to help build a healthier
relationship
between the dog and its owner, and as he puts it, build a contented and
more
balanced dog, using exercise, discipline and affection. So, for anyone
using Cesar's methods for dog behaviour, there is still the necessity
for
the dog to be obedience trained by a professional dog trainer; one does
not
negate the other. They're two separate things.

You can argue that point forever, but the fact remains that people are
clearly misinterpreting that fact far, FAR too often.

Tara
=
Well that doesn't make any sense. He has never shown anyone how to train
their dogs to heel, sit, down, stay and come. He only shows them how to
teach their misbehaving dogs how to behave better, and he trains the owner
more than he trains the dog. He observes the way the owner handles the dog,
and then he teaches the owner how to better handle the situation. He also
explains to them how to be calm assertive around the dog and to treat the
dog like a dog; not a human. That is basically what he does. The dog still
needs to be trained by someone in obedience.

wrote in message
oups.com...

You can argue that point forever, but the fact remains that people are
clearly misinterpreting that fact far, FAR too often.

Tara

Not to mention, people watch the show and think he fixes their dogs in
under 10 minutes.
I have never seen one of this showes where he doesn't have a dog on a
leash laying at his feet in under 5 minutes or walking nicely by his
side.
Honestly he makes it all look far to easy. Almost like a magic fix.
Sometimes they even put up a timer to show how fast he can make a dog
walk correctly next to him, but I never see a timer on the ones that
take a long time or won't do it at all.

Does the man ever fail? Has he ever come up against a dog that won't
walk for him or lay calmly for him?
====

Many dogs give him trouble. The more difficult dogs he takes to his center
and keeps them there for a couple of weeks. He does this often.
--------