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Halti Headcollar vs Pinch Prongs for training



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 16th 06, 04:01 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Paul E. Schoen
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Posts: 1,654
Default Halti Headcollar vs Pinch Prongs for training

I was recommended to try a small pinch prong collar at Muttley's first
obedience class, and it seemed to work better than just the choker chain
collar, but it was still an effort to control him and keep him focused on
me and the commands he was given. Also, he managed to make it pop open and
it had to be refastened.

This evening I bought a larger pinch prong collar, which is made of heavier
gauge metal, and also the prongs are very smoothly rounded, which I think
should pose less chance of damage than the more roughly cut ends of the
smaller collar. I plan to try it on him when I pick him up from a friend
who has been keeping him while I've been out of town.

The clerk at the store did not like the prong type collars, and thought
they really should be outlawed. She recommended a "Halti" headcollar, which
appears to be a combination collar and muzzle made of thin nylon straps. It
looks like a pull on the strap constricts a band around the nose. It is
labeled as an "improved design" by Dr. Roger Mugford.

I plan to try each of these for a brief time to see how they work on
Muttley. Then I can take them to the training class on Tuesday to have the
instructors evaluate them as well, and I can choose what may have the best
chance for success.

If anyone has any experience with these collars, please let me know. My
decision will be based on any input from here, as well as how Muttley seems
to react, and finally also the thoughts of the instructors. I would like to
do what is best for the dog, and provide him the best possible training for
future adoption.

Thanks,

Paul


  #2  
Old September 16th 06, 04:11 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Jeff Dege
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Posts: 144
Default Halti Headcollar vs Pinch Prongs for training

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 23:01:39 -0400, Paul E. Schoen wrote:


The clerk at the store did not like the prong type collars, and thought
they really should be outlawed. She recommended a "Halti" headcollar, which
appears to be a combination collar and muzzle made of thin nylon straps. It
looks like a pull on the strap constricts a band around the nose. It is
labeled as an "improved design" by Dr. Roger Mugford.

I plan to try each of these for a brief time to see how they work on
Muttley. Then I can take them to the training class on Tuesday to have the
instructors evaluate them as well, and I can choose what may have the best
chance for success.


Great idea.

Don't listen to me. Don't listen to the clerk.

Listen to your dog.

Most of them really hate head collars. Some will learn to tolerate them,
many will not.

--
..Sig?
  #3  
Old September 16th 06, 05:11 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Todd H.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 52
Default Halti Headcollar vs Pinch Prongs for training

"Paul E. Schoen" writes:

I was recommended to try a small pinch prong collar at Muttley's
first obedience class, and it seemed to work better than just the
choker chain collar,


Yup. And they don't construct their airway in the unlikely event
they try to strain at the chain.

but it was still an effort to control him and keep him focused on me
and the commands he was given.


Have they taught you sneak aways on a long line? Has someone with
experience evaluated the fit of that collar to make sure it's sized
correctly? It's exceedingly common to have these mis-sized.

Also, he managed to make it pop open and it had to be refastened.


Getting one that isn't quick release, where you take a link out of the
middle of the collar will fix that.

This evening I bought a larger pinch prong collar, which is made of
heavier gauge metal, and also the prongs are very smoothly rounded,
which I think should pose less chance of damage than the more
roughly cut ends of the smaller collar. I plan to try it on him when
I pick him up from a friend who has been keeping him while I've been
out of town.

The clerk at the store did not like the prong type collars, and thought
they really should be outlawed.


Let me guess, teenage or early 20 something female? Got the same
look from one at Petsmart here. Probably has never trained a dog.

Has your dog ever whelped from a correction on the pinch collar? I
know my 10lb poodle hasn't, yet learned his obedience very well. For
bigger breeds with a higher threshhold of getting their attention, the
pinch seems to be more helpful still. For instnace, how many Labs do
you see able to ignore a standard training collar in the hands of a
new handler?

She recommended a "Halti" headcollar, which appears to be a
combination collar and muzzle made of thin nylon straps. It looks
like a pull on the strap constricts a band around the nose. It is
labeled as an "improved design" by Dr. Roger Mugford.


I didn't see any of these at my dog club's obedience class. That's
not to say they don't work, but it's not a terribly proven design yet
I'd say.

I plan to try each of these for a brief time to see how they work on
Muttley. Then I can take them to the training class on Tuesday to have the
instructors evaluate them as well, and I can choose what may have the best
chance for success.

If anyone has any experience with these collars, please let me know. My
decision will be based on any input from here, as well as how Muttley seems
to react, and finally also the thoughts of the instructors. I would like to
do what is best for the dog, and provide him the best possible training for
future adoption.


The pinch collars work wonderfully, easier to learn to use correctly
and are what our club leans towards. Just make sure you've got it
sized correctly.

Good luck with the training!

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/
  #4  
Old September 16th 06, 06:46 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Paul E. Schoen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,654
Default Halti Headcollar vs Pinch Prongs for training


"Jeff Dege" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 23:01:39 -0400, Paul E. Schoen wrote:


The clerk at the store did not like the prong type collars, and thought
they really should be outlawed. She recommended a "Halti" headcollar,
which
appears to be a combination collar and muzzle made of thin nylon straps.
It
looks like a pull on the strap constricts a band around the nose. It is
labeled as an "improved design" by Dr. Roger Mugford.

I plan to try each of these for a brief time to see how they work on
Muttley. Then I can take them to the training class on Tuesday to have
the
instructors evaluate them as well, and I can choose what may have the
best
chance for success.


Great idea.

Don't listen to me. Don't listen to the clerk.

Listen to your dog.

Most of them really hate head collars. Some will learn to tolerate them,
many will not.

Thanks for your comments. I like to try and "listen" to what my animals are
trying to tell me. I am more used to cats, but have learned in my six
months with Muttley that dogs can be very expressive as well. He seems to
be able to tell me when he needs attention, and that has been very helpful
in building a feeling of mutual trust. Hopefully one of the collars,
properly fitted and used, will help him (and me) concentrate on training,
and then hopefully will not be needed again once he learns to listen to me
rather than following his nose.

Paul


  #5  
Old September 16th 06, 07:18 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Paul E. Schoen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,654
Default Halti Headcollar vs Pinch Prongs for training


"Todd H." wrote in message ...
"Paul E. Schoen" writes:

I was recommended to try a small pinch prong collar at Muttley's
first obedience class, and it seemed to work better than just the
choker chain collar,


Yup. And they don't construct their airway in the unlikely event
they try to strain at the chain.

With Muttley, this was a very predictable event. He would strain mightily
until he was gasping. I would then try to kneel next to him, settle him
down, loosen the chain, look him in the eye, and try to get him to focus on
me. Two seconds later he would strain eagerly again trying to follow his
nose somewhere.

but it was still an effort to control him and keep him focused on me
and the commands he was given.


Have they taught you sneak aways on a long line? Has someone with
experience evaluated the fit of that collar to make sure it's sized
correctly? It's exceedingly common to have these mis-sized.

The trainer added extra links to size it properly. She connected the leash
also to the choke chain as a backup, fortunately.

Also, he managed to make it pop open and it had to be refastened.


Getting one that isn't quick release, where you take a link out of the
middle of the collar will fix that.

Each of the links could be fairly easily squeezed and removed. It may have
become tangled with the choke chain to make it pop open. It opened between
a pair of links, not at the clip.

This evening I bought a larger pinch prong collar, which is made of
heavier gauge metal, and also the prongs are very smoothly rounded,
which I think should pose less chance of damage than the more
roughly cut ends of the smaller collar. I plan to try it on him when
I pick him up from a friend who has been keeping him while I've been
out of town.

The clerk at the store did not like the prong type collars, and thought
they really should be outlawed.


Let me guess, teenage or early 20 something female? Got the same
look from one at Petsmart here. Probably has never trained a dog.

This was a middle aged woman at a Tractor Supply Company store, which
specializes in rural animal needs. She may have been the same one who
warned me to watch my dog when he chewed on rawhide pieces. Muttley is very
careful (and efficient) when he eats them.

Has your dog ever whelped from a correction on the pinch collar? I
know my 10lb poodle hasn't, yet learned his obedience very well. For
bigger breeds with a higher threshhold of getting their attention, the
pinch seems to be more helpful still. For instnace, how many Labs do
you see able to ignore a standard training collar in the hands of a
new handler?

Muttley is built with a very large and powerful neck, and he never made a
sound when the pinch collar was snapped up. He simply slowed down a bit and
then continued to pull. I think I could probably just about lift his 70+ lb
off the ground with the smaller pinch coller (and even the choker) without
him even flinching. I will see how the larger one works on him in the less
distracting environment here at home, and then the final test will probably
be at his next class on Tuesday, with evaluation by the trainers.

She recommended a "Halti" headcollar, which appears to be a
combination collar and muzzle made of thin nylon straps. It looks
like a pull on the strap constricts a band around the nose. It is
labeled as an "improved design" by Dr. Roger Mugford.


I didn't see any of these at my dog club's obedience class. That's
not to say they don't work, but it's not a terribly proven design yet
I'd say.

The woman at the store said, essentially, that if you control the dog's
head, you control the dog. Maybe exerting some pull on his nose will bring
his attention more to me. When I took Muttley to a horse farm, the woman
who ran it seemed to have some success with Muttley in a short time, by
forcing him to look her in the eye, and giving very quick, strong
corrections at the least sign of his inattention. And that was only with
the choker chain.

I plan to try each of these for a brief time to see how they work on
Muttley. Then I can take them to the training class on Tuesday to have
the
instructors evaluate them as well, and I can choose what may have the
best
chance for success.

If anyone has any experience with these collars, please let me know. My
decision will be based on any input from here, as well as how Muttley
seems
to react, and finally also the thoughts of the instructors. I would like
to
do what is best for the dog, and provide him the best possible training
for
future adoption.


The pinch collars work wonderfully, easier to learn to use correctly
and are what our club leans towards. Just make sure you've got it
sized correctly.

Good luck with the training!

Best Regards,
--


Thanks. I'll report on my future successes or difficulties. It is probably
a combination of my inexperience with dog training and also a very smart,
willful, powerful dog who was used to being able to run free for quite a
while.

Paul


  #6  
Old September 16th 06, 07:43 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
TaraG
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 503
Default Halti Headcollar vs Pinch Prongs for training


"Todd H." wrote in message ...
"Paul E. Schoen" writes:


The trainer added extra links to size it properly. She connected the
leash
also to the choke chain as a backup, fortunately.


Both collars simultaneously? This seems extremely unorthodox, and in
fact may have led to the release of the clasp.


Untrue. Actually, though I rarely use prong collars these days, I would
NEVER use one without also using a backup slip collar with it (a nylon slip,
to be specific)
A prong collar n its own can fail and open....and enough do to make the use
of a backup collar not only prudent, but wise.

Each of the links could be fairly easily squeezed and removed. It may
have
become tangled with the choke chain to make it pop open. It opened
between
a pair of links, not at the clip.


Oh, yeah... I'm not an expert on these topics, but having 2 collars on
at once with any training collar just seems like a recipe for
disaster. Do you get the feeling your instructor is competent?


Its definitely NOT a "recipe for disaster". In my opinion, using a prong
collar solo without any sort of safety mechanism for if/when the collar
opens on its own is a "recipe" of its own.

To the OP (Paul), while I don't go to the prong collar as a first option, I
also find that enough dogs have issues with head collars that Muttley might
have to tell you which one he a) responds to most quickly and b) prefers
(and, yes, this is second in priority). The larger prongs might not be the
best idea....and I have yet to see the rounded nubs help *anything* besides
the owner's conscience. The dog pulls harder, and then ultimately learns to
pull *through* the prong with those plugs at the end. Again, you'll find out
when its actually *on* Muttley, and when your trainer has a chance to see
you guys in action in person.

I did have to interject when I saw the above statements from Todd, though.

Tara


  #7  
Old September 16th 06, 07:44 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Todd H.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Halti Headcollar vs Pinch Prongs for training

"Paul E. Schoen" writes:
"Todd H." wrote in message ...
"Paul E. Schoen" writes:

I was recommended to try a small pinch prong collar at Muttley's
first obedience class, and it seemed to work better than just the
choker chain collar,


Yup. And they don't construct their airway in the unlikely event
they try to strain at the chain.

With Muttley, this was a very predictable event. He would strain mightily
until he was gasping. I would then try to kneel next to him, settle him
down, loosen the chain, look him in the eye, and try to get him to focus on
me. Two seconds later he would strain eagerly again trying to follow his
nose somewhere.


I watched a trainer take care of that with a couple similarly strong
willed dogs with a few "OUT!" corrections delivered well, and with a
quick and simple praise when they stopped the offending behavior.

It's possible that by kneeling down next to him and attempting to
settle him that you may be unwittingly encouraging the behavior that
led you to comfort it.


The trainer added extra links to size it properly. She connected the leash
also to the choke chain as a backup, fortunately.


Both collars simultaneously? This seems extremely unorthodox, and in
fact may have led to the release of the clasp.


Each of the links could be fairly easily squeezed and removed. It may have
become tangled with the choke chain to make it pop open. It opened between
a pair of links, not at the clip.


Oh, yeah... I'm not an expert on these topics, but having 2 collars on
at once with any training collar just seems like a recipe for
disaster. Do you get the feeling your instructor is competent?

Muttley is built with a very large and powerful neck, and he never made a
sound when the pinch collar was snapped up. He simply slowed down a bit and
then continued to pull. I think I could probably just about lift his 70+ lb
off the ground with the smaller pinch coller (and even the choker) without
him even flinching. I will see how the larger one works on him in the less
distracting environment here at home, and then the final test will probably
be at his next class on Tuesday, with evaluation by the trainers.


Sounds reasonable. He sounds like a beast. :-)

Thanks. I'll report on my future successes or difficulties. It is probably
a combination of my inexperience with dog training and also a very smart,
willful, powerful dog who was used to being able to run free for quite a
while.


Yeah you've probably got your work cut out for you, but from what I've
seen in the 10wk obedience class recently finished, you should be
seeing some impressive results if you put in the daily work with him
and learn the handling techniques, timing of corrections, when not to
give eye contact, and all that jazz. It sounds like your dog needs
to learn that he the lowest number on the totem pole at your house,
and that when you're training, he needs to be focused on his new pack
leader, and that pulling like that is simply not acceptable behavior.

With enough correction, and well-timed genuine praise immediatley
after he breaks off the bad behavior, he will eventually "get" that
the place to be is at your heel and that bad things happen when he
starts to pull.

Good luck!

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/
  #8  
Old September 16th 06, 02:31 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Handsome Jack Morrison
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,772
Default Halti Headcollar vs Pinch Prongs for training

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 22:11:24 -0500, Jeff Dege
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 23:01:39 -0400, Paul E. Schoen wrote:


The clerk at the store did not like the prong type collars, and thought
they really should be outlawed. She recommended a "Halti" headcollar, which
appears to be a combination collar and muzzle made of thin nylon straps. It
looks like a pull on the strap constricts a band around the nose. It is
labeled as an "improved design" by Dr. Roger Mugford.

I plan to try each of these for a brief time to see how they work on
Muttley. Then I can take them to the training class on Tuesday to have the
instructors evaluate them as well, and I can choose what may have the best
chance for success.


Great idea.


Not in my opinion.

He's collar shopping without any input from his trainer? How smart is
that?

He's also obviously expecting the collar itself to be some kind of
silver bullet. I can almost hear his gears grinding from he "Gee,
if I can just find the right kind of collar, Muttley will transform
himself into Lassie overnight! I'll be the toast of the town!"

It's not the freakin' collar! It's never the freakin' collar!

It's the TRAINING. It's always the TRAINING.

Don't listen to me. Don't listen to the clerk.

Listen to your dog.


Actually, I don't agree with that sentiment, either.

He should be listening to his *trainer.* Period.

What, pray tell, is he paying a trainer for, if it's not to show him
how to train his dog? What kind of equipment to use? How to use it?

He's already anthropomorphizing the prong collar, by thinking that the
kind with smooth tips will somehow be more "kind" to his dog, etc. And
he's also listening to people who sell dog food for a living, instead
of listening to people who actually train dogs for a living.

How smart is that?

I think Janet (as his trainer, I presume) should get control of
Muttley's *owner* first, before worrying about ol' Muttley.

Yep, that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

A very, very brave woman dies - Oriana Fallaci. R.I.P.
(read her books, while you still can)
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005934.htm
http://pajamasmedia.com/2006/09/in_memoriam.php
The Iraqi Truth Project:
http://www.iraqitruthproject.com/
Payback's gonna be a real bitch.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/edi...n_bush_hatred/
Deranged Democrat Watch
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/webl...Watch#comments
"Reality Based" Community Watch:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/webl...Watch#comments
The "Azzam" Threat: A prelude to Future Jihad in America:
http://counterterrorismblog.org/2006...prelude_to.php
The Waiting Game:
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q...ZiNzM1NTI4NjY=
Border War. Another must-see movie.
http://hotair.com/archives/2006/08/31/border-war/
Playing with fire, the commie pinko liberal way:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...ama/article.do
  #9  
Old September 16th 06, 03:48 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
flick
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 568
Default Halti Headcollar vs Pinch Prongs for training

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote in message
...

snipped

With Muttley, this was a very predictable event. He would strain mightily
until he was gasping. I would then try to kneel next to him, settle him
down, loosen the chain, look him in the eye, and try to get him to focus
on me. Two seconds later he would strain eagerly again trying to follow
his nose somewhere.


This isn't how to use a prong collar. See your trainer.

The woman at the store said, essentially, that if you control the dog's
head, you control the dog. Maybe exerting some pull on his nose will bring
his attention more to me. When I took Muttley to a horse farm, the woman
who ran it seemed to have some success with Muttley in a short time, by
forcing him to look her in the eye, and giving very quick, strong
corrections at the least sign of his inattention. And that was only with
the choker chain.


The last time I took a dog through a formal beginner's obedience class was
decades ago. We ALL had prong collars on our dogs.

You control the dog through its training. I think a Halti is useful as an
emergency control measure, or if you've got a particularly powerful dog,
until the dog is trained. To me, a Halti is not a training tool.

Thanks. I'll report on my future successes or difficulties. It is probably
a combination of my inexperience with dog training and also a very smart,
willful, powerful dog who was used to being able to run free for quite a
while.


He doesn't know what you want, yet - he isn't trained, yet. You'll learn
how to size and use that prong collar in class, and all will become clear,
Grasshopper ;-).

flick 100785


  #10  
Old September 16th 06, 03:51 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
flick
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 568
Default Halti Headcollar vs Pinch Prongs for training

"TaraG" wrote in message
news:K2NOg.33$x11.20@trndny02...


Untrue. Actually, though I rarely use prong collars these days, I would
NEVER use one without also using a backup slip collar with it (a nylon
slip, to be specific)
A prong collar n its own can fail and open....and enough do to make the
use of a backup collar not only prudent, but wise.


I've never had a prong collar fail like this. The ones I have, if you want
to remove a link you've got to squeeze the prongs together with pliers and
pull hard to get it separate.

flick 100785


 




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