I've had pets, including dogs, growing up and none of them were
particularly well behaved and aside from feeding them and occasionally
acknowledging them when going into the back yard, I was never really
taught as a kid how to properly care for a pet. I've got my own family
now and decided to add a new member to our family. I'd like to learn a
new way to actually enjoy having a dog and having him participate in
the family unit.

We just adopted a 7mo lab puppy from our local shelter and I'm in
search of alternate training methods. I've tried a few of Caesar
Milan's techniques but they don't seem to have a lasting effect since
most of them are dependant on having a lead just behind the dogs ears
and after a couple of corrective yanks, it ends up around his throat
and then he pulls and the lead slides down to his shoulders which makes
him want to pull even harder. We walk him until he's calm every day
like Caesar recommends, but as soon as he gets home and off the lead he
gets rowdy. Keeping a lead on him 24/7 is not practical. We take him
to the local dog park every day and he does pretty well socializing
with the other dogs there. He's very active and occasionally jumps
up on other dogs but it's usually other active dogs and it seems like
he's trying to get them to wrestle around with him. Once in a while
he'll find one to play with and they'll go at it for an hour or
more. I haven't gotten any of Caesar's books, so maybe some of the
missing pieces are there but I'm bothered by having to make a purchase
to do something as common as
training/rehabing/whatever-else-you-wanna-call-it a pet.

In searching the groups here I couldn't help but come across Jerry
Howe's postings. My initial impression was he's a belligerent, rude
and insulting kook, but I also have an open mind and before I wrote his
entire program off, I wanted to see what he actually provided free of
charge. I was surprised to see that he does indeed provide his entire
training manual online and free of charge. I know he tries to sell
other things, or at least has tried in the past, but like I said, I'm
opposed to buying information in regards to common every-day tasks so I
didn't look into that side of his program at all. I'm about 1/2 way
through the training guide and he hasn't pushed any products as of yet.
In fact, his recommended training tools (i.e. soda can with a few
coins, etc) are made from inexpensive items found around the house and
he actually seems to discourage the purchase of all but the most basic
collar and leashes, unlike our vet who promptly suggested the Gentle
Leader by brand name. The dog hates this thing and I feel bad using it
to force him to walk or heel or sit. I'd rather he do these things
because he knows it's what I want him to do. I see other dogs do it,
so I know it can be done.

I enjoy studying psychology, which is the reason Caesar's techniques
appeal to me, and it seems Jerry's techniques use even more psychology
and less physical contact to accomplish the desired result. I'm
curious if anyone here has actually been able to get far enough past
Jerry's ignorance in dealing with people to be able to try his training
methods and what the result was.

Thanks in advance.

2 things,

as a kid we had a golden which was a great dog, would never relieve itself
in the house, if we where gone all day it would just hold it. I never
participated in the training but from what I remember my parents used every
technique now considered wrong. paper training, rubbing its nose in it,
smacking your dog with rolled up newspaper etc... I've been using all the
current techniques myself.

and my 2nd, one night will drunk I hopped on here and was reading one of
Howe's posts and it actually made sense, wierd...

wrote in message
oups.com...
I've had pets, including dogs, growing up and none of them were
particularly well behaved and aside from feeding them and occasionally
acknowledging them when going into the back yard, I was never really
taught as a kid how to properly care for a pet. I've got my own family
now and decided to add a new member to our family. I'd like to learn a
new way to actually enjoy having a dog and having him participate in
the family unit.

We just adopted a 7mo lab puppy from our local shelter and I'm in
search of alternate training methods. I've tried a few of Caesar
Milan's techniques but they don't seem to have a lasting effect since
most of them are dependant on having a lead just behind the dogs ears
and after a couple of corrective yanks, it ends up around his throat
and then he pulls and the lead slides down to his shoulders which makes
him want to pull even harder. We walk him until he's calm every day
like Caesar recommends, but as soon as he gets home and off the lead he
gets rowdy. Keeping a lead on him 24/7 is not practical. We take him
to the local dog park every day and he does pretty well socializing
with the other dogs there. He's very active and occasionally jumps
up on other dogs but it's usually other active dogs and it seems like
he's trying to get them to wrestle around with him. Once in a while
he'll find one to play with and they'll go at it for an hour or
more. I haven't gotten any of Caesar's books, so maybe some of the
missing pieces are there but I'm bothered by having to make a purchase
to do something as common as
training/rehabing/whatever-else-you-wanna-call-it a pet.

In searching the groups here I couldn't help but come across Jerry
Howe's postings. My initial impression was he's a belligerent, rude
and insulting kook, but I also have an open mind and before I wrote his
entire program off, I wanted to see what he actually provided free of
charge. I was surprised to see that he does indeed provide his entire
training manual online and free of charge. I know he tries to sell
other things, or at least has tried in the past, but like I said, I'm
opposed to buying information in regards to common every-day tasks so I
didn't look into that side of his program at all. I'm about 1/2 way
through the training guide and he hasn't pushed any products as of yet.
In fact, his recommended training tools (i.e. soda can with a few
coins, etc) are made from inexpensive items found around the house and
he actually seems to discourage the purchase of all but the most basic
collar and leashes, unlike our vet who promptly suggested the Gentle
Leader by brand name. The dog hates this thing and I feel bad using it
to force him to walk or heel or sit. I'd rather he do these things
because he knows it's what I want him to do. I see other dogs do it,
so I know it can be done.

I enjoy studying psychology, which is the reason Caesar's techniques
appeal to me, and it seems Jerry's techniques use even more psychology
and less physical contact to accomplish the desired result. I'm
curious if anyone here has actually been able to get far enough past
Jerry's ignorance in dealing with people to be able to try his training
methods and what the result was.

Thanks in advance.

writes:

I enjoy studying psychology

Jerry is certainly intriguing from this perspective.

I'd be curious to see if his method works, but likewise, I won't
invest my own time based on "consider the source" grounds, as well as,
out of courtesy to the dog, not having me associate him with anything
to do with said nutjob.

--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

petebert wrote:
and my 2nd, one night will drunk I hopped on here and was reading one of
Howe's posts and it actually made sense, wierd...

Haha...well, I'm not drunk and I can't really say that his posts in
general make sense, but his manual does seem to strike a chord with me.
It almost seems as if the manual was not written by the same mind that
fires off the inflamatory posts.

Yes, I have.
The problem with Jerry is he's so beligerent and ends up vilifying you
and accusing you of child abuse unless you want to be a disciple.
So if you can get past his mispelling and maniacal rantings, inside his
text there are
some useful tools.

The hot and cold exercise used to gather the dog's attention before a
walk absolutely
works! The family pack leadership exercise absolutely works.
As for the 4 times requirement, insistance training not be done on home
turf,
and the application of sound interruptions from opposite directions,
these
I find less useful.

But the main idea of using praise instead of corrections to obtain
trust and attention
absolutely work. I've trained nieghbors dogs from my side of the fence
to quiet down,
sit, down and relax using nothing but persistent praise. It does fly
in the face of everything
you've likely heard, but the proof is in the pudding. How many folks
can say they can get
their neighbor's dog to listen reliably? These nieghbor's pups are pit
mixes, dominant males who act as though they'll eat you, which is why I
bothered in the first place. Should they get loose, instead of me
fearing attack, I have them wanting into my yard for play. Instead of
them getting splattered on nearby very busy road, they come when I
call, sit when I ask them to, or down, or stay. That pleases me to no
end.

I have a female gsd who is severley overbit. So much so, her upper
incisors are in front of her chin. The result of this is she was the
omega in the litter pack, and the first to seek refuge in any available
lap...which is how she picked out my wife. I was on the floor playing
with the boys when she walked up holding her, completely intoxicated by
the amneisia causing puppy breath. Not a way to pick a pup, but I
caved and we got our first female.
In days, we were calling her triangle head. In a week, I realized she
had no chin.
Having rasied 3 dominant hard males, I was ill-prepared for a
submissive. She'd titsup
at a firm tone, or the sight of a choke or prong. Instant shutdown.

So at this point, I figured, it might just be a lunatic I was looking
for.

I emailed him. We had civil conversations for a few months before he
found a post
on a group in which I was discussing a dog who was killing deer. I had
a dog once
who was wonderful, save for chasing deer. I said at that moment the
dog has quickly become a distant crashing in the woods, I wished I had
a red button on a remote.
Though I've never used an ecollar, that statement flipped his cork, and
I became his prey item. C'est la vie! You dance with the devil, there
is a price. In the meantime I added
some tools to my bag of tricks.

Individual mileage may vary, but that's my experience.

Personally, I don't know how anyone could spend as much time cross
posting all that blather and find time enough to actually tend to a
dog. His "video" is totally useless,
split the cost with another neighbor just to see, we were extremely
disappointed.
All it is is him talking his blather. He does not work a dog in it.
Sooner or later, either
Earthlink will put the clamps on him, or he'll have a stroke hammering
the keyboard
in a fit of rage.

As for Ceasar...there is nothing new about anything he does, and his
terms for psychology
do not align with the science at all, so the behaviorists are all up in
arms about his success,
claiming it drags them back 30 years. He's popular, in my opinion,
because he sounds like
Ricky Ricardo, and who didn't love him? For the completely clueless,
which most of his clients are, with more money than brains, he could
help some households. But his domination techniques will get someone
bit in a heartbeat. When the lawyers smell enough
cha-ching, that show will disappear. In the meantime, he's riding the
train to the bank, and
who could blame him? He's living every immigrant's dream. Would I let
him work my dog?
Not for all the tea in China.

Gotta go RELOAD now, and put on some asbestos pants.
Enjoy this day!



wrote:
I've had pets, including dogs, growing up and none of them were
particularly well behaved and aside from feeding them and occasionally
acknowledging them when going into the back yard, I was never really
taught as a kid how to properly care for a pet. I've got my own family
now and decided to add a new member to our family. I'd like to learn a
new way to actually enjoy having a dog and having him participate in
the family unit.

We just adopted a 7mo lab puppy from our local shelter and I'm in
search of alternate training methods. I've tried a few of Caesar
Milan's techniques but they don't seem to have a lasting effect since
most of them are dependant on having a lead just behind the dogs ears
and after a couple of corrective yanks, it ends up around his throat
and then he pulls and the lead slides down to his shoulders which makes
him want to pull even harder. We walk him until he's calm every day
like Caesar recommends, but as soon as he gets home and off the lead he
gets rowdy. Keeping a lead on him 24/7 is not practical. We take him
to the local dog park every day and he does pretty well socializing
with the other dogs there. He's very active and occasionally jumps
up on other dogs but it's usually other active dogs and it seems like
he's trying to get them to wrestle around with him. Once in a while
he'll find one to play with and they'll go at it for an hour or
more. I haven't gotten any of Caesar's books, so maybe some of the
missing pieces are there but I'm bothered by having to make a purchase
to do something as common as
training/rehabing/whatever-else-you-wanna-call-it a pet.

In searching the groups here I couldn't help but come across Jerry
Howe's postings. My initial impression was he's a belligerent, rude
and insulting kook, but I also have an open mind and before I wrote his
entire program off, I wanted to see what he actually provided free of
charge. I was surprised to see that he does indeed provide his entire
training manual online and free of charge. I know he tries to sell
other things, or at least has tried in the past, but like I said, I'm
opposed to buying information in regards to common every-day tasks so I
didn't look into that side of his program at all. I'm about 1/2 way
through the training guide and he hasn't pushed any products as of yet.
In fact, his recommended training tools (i.e. soda can with a few
coins, etc) are made from inexpensive items found around the house and
he actually seems to discourage the purchase of all but the most basic
collar and leashes, unlike our vet who promptly suggested the Gentle
Leader by brand name. The dog hates this thing and I feel bad using it
to force him to walk or heel or sit. I'd rather he do these things
because he knows it's what I want him to do. I see other dogs do it,
so I know it can be done.

I enjoy studying psychology, which is the reason Caesar's techniques
appeal to me, and it seems Jerry's techniques use even more psychology
and less physical contact to accomplish the desired result. I'm
curious if anyone here has actually been able to get far enough past
Jerry's ignorance in dealing with people to be able to try his training
methods and what the result was.

Thanks in advance.

I've finished reading the manual and PART II seems less coherent than
the first. There also seems to be a lot of hand/foot/body movement
that has to be performed in an exact manner and exact sequence with no
deviation from one time to the next at the risk of not following the
manual properly.

I'll give PART I and honest effort and see what happens. If the
results are undisputed, I'll move on to PART II if I can manage 30
extra minutes a day to practice the choreography.

I'm still interested in other's experiences with Jerry's techniques.

Dave wrote:
petebert wrote:
and my 2nd, one night will drunk I hopped on here and was reading one of
Howe's posts and it actually made sense, wierd...

Haha...well, I'm not drunk and I can't really say that his posts in
general make sense, but his manual does seem to strike a chord with me.
It almost seems as if the manual was not written by the same mind that
fires off the inflamatory posts.

The manual wasn't written by him. You are correct in that assumption.
But he should have stolen at least a DECENTLY written manual. He
wasn't smart enough to do that - what a surprise since he has no
intelligence...he can't even solve some simple brainteasers that
middle-school kids can.

That says it all...would YOU trust your dog's well being to him?

not now, but if you search for McProtection, a post from 2000, you'll
see your pal
whom I know you really love, was lucid 6 years ago.
get past the dobe part, the last half, where learning OUT first is
discussed.
this made sense to me, intrigued me and prompted my odessey.
If I was talking with the same guy in 00, I might.

Enjoy This Day!


wrote:
Dave wrote:
petebert wrote:
and my 2nd, one night will drunk I hopped on here and was reading one of
Howe's posts and it actually made sense, wierd...

Haha...well, I'm not drunk and I can't really say that his posts in
general make sense, but his manual does seem to strike a chord with me.
It almost seems as if the manual was not written by the same mind that
fires off the inflamatory posts.

The manual wasn't written by him. You are correct in that assumption.
But he should have stolen at least a DECENTLY written manual. He
wasn't smart enough to do that - what a surprise since he has no
intelligence...he can't even solve some simple brainteasers that
middle-school kids can.

That says it all...would YOU trust your dog's well being to him?

wrote:
The manual wasn't written by him. You are correct in that assumption.

How do you know this? Who wrote it if it wasn't Howe?

he doesn't, he just hates him.
he's as whack at bashing jh as jh is bashing anyone and everyone.
birds of a feather that way

..
Dave wrote:
wrote:
The manual wasn't written by him. You are correct in that assumption.

How do you know this? Who wrote it if it wasn't Howe?