I caught an episode of Dog Whisperer today by chance. I haven't seen
a lot of his shows, but have seen a couple. This episode had a couple
who had met over the internet but were unable to get their pit bull
mixes to get along nicely in the now blended family. Cesar worked
with the more aggressive pit with a muzzle and even at the end of the
segment was advising that the couple leave the muzzle on when the dogs
were together for the time being. I didn't hear anything about what
to do to get to the non-muzzle stage or any explanation of the fact
that pitbulls were bred to fight dogs and may never be safe together.
I was wondering if he addresses things like inbred dog aggression in
breeds like pitbulls in his book, where he may have more time to
explain more fully. Or does he subscribe to the dog is a dog is a dog
theory?

By the way, I think he did a good job with getting the two dogs to go
on walks together without getting into it. I was impressed with his
personal dog handling skills. But I am concerned about how things
will go with the dog in its home if the owners have not had the
hardwired nature of their dogs' breed explained to them. I also
wonder what Cesar would do to get them to the point where they could
live together unmuzzled and in harmony. This show didn't go that far.

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

Paula said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

By the way, I think he did a good job with getting the two
dogs to go on walks together without getting into it. I
was impressed with his personal dog handling skills. But I
am concerned about how things will go with the dog in its
home if the owners have not had the hardwired nature of
their dogs' breed explained to them. I also wonder what
Cesar would do to get them to the point where they could
live together unmuzzled and in harmony. This show didn't
go that far.

I saw that episode for the second time the other day, and it
cemented my opinion as to why I like Millan sometimes. Follow-
up would be nice - I've only seen that once.

How about "Beverly Hills Vet"? I like it.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

who knows, but there is a good chance he covers a lot more with the people
then what we see. It appears that he usually spends at least 1 full day with
the people but we only get to see 15 minutes of footage.


"Paula" wrote in message
...
I caught an episode of Dog Whisperer today by chance. I haven't seen
a lot of his shows, but have seen a couple. This episode had a couple
who had met over the internet but were unable to get their pit bull
mixes to get along nicely in the now blended family. Cesar worked
with the more aggressive pit with a muzzle and even at the end of the
segment was advising that the couple leave the muzzle on when the dogs
were together for the time being. I didn't hear anything about what
to do to get to the non-muzzle stage or any explanation of the fact
that pitbulls were bred to fight dogs and may never be safe together.
I was wondering if he addresses things like inbred dog aggression in
breeds like pitbulls in his book, where he may have more time to
explain more fully. Or does he subscribe to the dog is a dog is a dog
theory?

By the way, I think he did a good job with getting the two dogs to go
on walks together without getting into it. I was impressed with his
personal dog handling skills. But I am concerned about how things
will go with the dog in its home if the owners have not had the
hardwired nature of their dogs' breed explained to them. I also
wonder what Cesar would do to get them to the point where they could
live together unmuzzled and in harmony. This show didn't go that far.

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

I have to admit, that while I'm not wild about his techniques (parts of
his philosophy are interesting, though I would think if you can control
dogs with calm assertive energy you wouldn't need so much physical
force) I have read the book. For one thing, I've found that many people
who come to me for training have watched the show, and I need to be
able to be able to address their perceptions and misperceptions in a
way that makes sense. And then again, I think you can learn from anyone
(even if most of it is what you WOULDN'T do) It's my memory of the book
that he's of the "no bad dogs" opinion that all undesired behaviors are
the fault of the owner. Good leadership can certainly cut down on
internal squabbles. Really good leadership can avoid having some of
those issues come up in the first place. And if the techniques used are
scary enough to a dog, they may decide that pursuing agendas isn't
worth it and inhibit their behavior around him. That's not something I
suggest, though I know many do. Because Cesar is very macho and very
scary, it's not unusual for dogs to defer to him (although there were
those two Akita housemates who were anything but peaceful when he was
showing how they could walk nicely together) And, not everyone has a
pack to scare the behavior plumb out of a spoiled little pet who has
never seen that many big, mean looking dogs. (although I do hear that
there are plenty of inner-pack spats that take place off-camera). Most
people don't have that kind of intimidation factor, and doesn't have
access to live with huge packs of dogs (nor want to)
The fact is, some breeds DO have hard-wired dog aggression as an
accepted breed trait. You can manage hardwired behaviors, but you can't
train them away. They are always there, just under the veneer of
training. And the fact is, some dogs have traits which make it
difficult fo them to be "best friends" with certain other dogs in the
family. In the wild, the higher status animal (and maybe others in the
pack) would drive the misfit individual away, and that individual would
be free to leave. But we bring animals into our fenced yards and our
homes and expect the animals WE choose (frequently for reasons other
than their compatibility) will be friends and live peacefully together.
That's not always realistic. I know I've met human individuals I would
truly hate to be expected to be able to live with. But we expect that
of our dogs. It can be a worse problem with bitches than dogs. I think
it was Shirley Chong who said "dogs fight for status, bitches fight for
breathing rights". So, if you train two incompatible dogs to live
together and don't manage, and get sloppy, eventually you are likely to
come home to a big vet bill or a dead dog.
I think the thing that bothers me most about CM isn't his methods, but
the fact that he leads people to believe that quick fixes, "patches" on
the behavior, have solved their problems. I'd like to see a follow-up
of some of these dogs six months, a year later. Sandy in OK

On 24 Oct 2006 08:55:31 -0700, "Sandy in OK"
wrote:

You can manage hardwired behaviors, but you can't
train them away. They are always there, just under the veneer of
training. And the fact is, some dogs have traits which make it
difficult fo them to be "best friends" with certain other dogs in the
family. In the wild, the higher status animal (and maybe others in the
pack) would drive the misfit individual away, and that individual would
be free to leave. But we bring animals into our fenced yards and our
homes and expect the animals WE choose (frequently for reasons other
than their compatibility) will be friends and live peacefully together.
That's not always realistic. I know I've met human individuals I would
truly hate to be expected to be able to live with. But we expect that
of our dogs. It can be a worse problem with bitches than dogs. I think
it was Shirley Chong who said "dogs fight for status, bitches fight for
breathing rights". So, if you train two incompatible dogs to live
together and don't manage, and get sloppy, eventually you are likely to
come home to a big vet bill or a dead dog.
I think the thing that bothers me most about CM isn't his methods, but
the fact that he leads people to believe that quick fixes, "patches" on
the behavior, have solved their problems. I'd like to see a follow-up
of some of these dogs six months, a year later.

This is the problem I had as well. I was in awe of how well he did
with the dogs in the one episode, but he is going to be gone and the
owners are going to have to face the realities. The reality is that
two pit mixes may not ever be able to be left alone unsupervised. How
many dogs would never counter surf in front of their owner but go
straight for the counter (or the garbage or whatever) as soon as they
are alone? The owners may not be able to train the dogs not to fight
and even if they managed, it may be that they get the message that
they cannot fight when the people are there to intervene and keep the
peace, but not that they can't fight when they aren't around. If the
owners don't understand the difference and don't understand that dog
aggression is hardwired into their breeds and will always be a strong
impulse even if the dogs are trained to resist it, I don't see how it
can't lead to disaster down the line. I was hoping that he did a
better job in the book and the show was just a case of editing it to
fit the time slot and the entertainment agenda of the producers, but
it sounds like that's not the case. That's a shame.

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:35:57 -0400, elegy
wrote:

at the same time, it's
one of the things i accepted in taking in a second bully- that there's
always the possibility that they'd start fighting and have to live
segregated. i'd hate that

But because you are aware of that and accept it, you can protect your
dogs and do right by them. Knowledge is power.

Molly doesn't like girl dogs. She is an alpha bitch all the way. She
does some bitchy posturing and intimidating even with boy dogs, but
she lets it go and loves them to death after they show they don't want
to challenge her. When we had a foster bitch she hated, we kept them
separated. It was a pain, but it had to be done. I was not going to
see either of them hurt in a throw down, but the chemistry was too
volatile to trust it wouldn't happen. I notified the rescue that they
needed to find another foster home for McKenna. It turned out that
they had a potential adoption, but needed to check some things out
first. I was willing to keep her a little longer so she could go
straight to her new home and they wouldn't have to find another
placement short term, but I accepted that meant keeping on top of
managing their issues.

With Diva, I had to deal with dog aggression issues long term, though
she got a lot better over time. It's something you do when you have
to. Much better than stitching dogs up or burying them. I do believe
you train aggressive dogs. Diva wasn't getting better over time
because I was chanting incantations over her. But you have to manage
them in the meantime and you have to be on your toes. You can't do
that if you don't even know that the truce could be temporary or only
related to the dogs thinking they have to behave differently with the
trainer than they do with their owners.

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

Paula wrote in
:

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:35:57 -0400, elegy
wrote:

at the same time, it's
one of the things i accepted in taking in a second bully- that there's
always the possibility that they'd start fighting and have to live
segregated. i'd hate that

But because you are aware of that and accept it, you can protect your
dogs and do right by them. Knowledge is power.

On that note, I'd like to announce that my beginning obedience class
graduated all TEN dogs on Monday! Even the bouncy Boxer boy. Even the
other Boxer boy who thought Ranger Must Die. The little Cav lost her brane
(but did a great trick), and the Dachsie was a S-T-A-R. A really good
group of dogs, some with issues, but it speaks well of their owners that
they saw the 7-week class through to the end.

The rumbly Boxer-boy and the shy little Basset mix tried to elope. Sort of
an Archie 'n Edith pairing, but if they're happy, their owners were happy.

Next class starts in 2 weeks. (Class is like a box of chocolates. You
never know exactly what you're going to get.)

On 25 Oct 2006 17:14:14 GMT, Mary Healey wrote:

The rumbly Boxer-boy and the shy little Basset mix tried to elope. Sort of
an Archie 'n Edith pairing, but if they're happy, their owners were happy.

Oh my goodness. I bet they were a cute couple!

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

You have to systematically create confusion, it sets creativity free.
Everything that is contradictory creates life.
-- Salvador Dali