Hi All
Looking for views on what to do next with my Jack Russell. My mind changes
every minute!!
He's 8; got a grade 2 tumour removed from his stomach but with dirty
margins. The vet didn't want to take too much into his stomach muscles or
too near his penis. Ultrasound, bone marrow and lymph node tests showed it
hadn't spread. Oncologist said best to use vinblastine. Met with surgeon;
suggested another op to remove the required inch margins which will require
large incisions up his sides to stretch his skin to cover the hole. Also
take a bit of his muscle out. 2 days in hops and 3 week recovery. I'm just
so concerned about another big operation and he perhaps doesn't come through
it or goes through it and doesn't get any better. He is so very healthy
right now and not suffering at all.
I'd appreciate anyone's view/thoughts and if anyone's had any experience. I
feel I'm too emotionally attached (obviously!!) when perhaps the operation
might be the right thing that will give him another few years! But who
knows?
Thanks for your help
mags

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 08:21:49 GMT, "Mags"
wrote:

Hi All
Looking for views on what to do next with my Jack Russell. My mind changes
every minute!!

I don't have any advice on what to do. I did want, however, to tell
you that I am so sorry that you have to make decisions like this and
that no matter what you choose, your dog is lucky to have someone who
cares so much and wants the best quality of life possible. Having
already given that priceless gift to your dog's health, well being and
quality of life, be at peace with whatever decision you make.

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

Is he taking Benedryl & cimetadine? If not he should be the Benedryl keeps
the histamines from going balistic in his system. That's one of the things
these tumors do they release massive amounts of histamines and produce
excess stomach acid. They can release enough histamines to send a dog into
anaphalactic shock.

I treated Barney with these two for over 5 years. And in that time span I
stopped them after the first surgery like my vet said to and he developed
another tumor less than 7 weeks later. After that he stayed on the
medications daily. He never eventually developed one in his mouth that we
couldn't operate on. I feel that the drugs while it may not have kept him
mast cell free that they did help give him a few more years that he would
not have had.

Right after he passed away there was information that cumin helps with
cancer. I didn't have the opportunity to try it with Barney but here is the
information on it. It might be something you can add to his treatment.
http://youngagain.com/cumin1.html There are quite a few articles if you
google cumin cancer

The other thing I would do is massage him nightly. It's the fastest way to
catch any tumors that are starting. Regardless of how small it is get it
biopsied ASAP. The key to keeping ahead of this is to catch it early.

Good Luck
Celeste


"Mags" wrote in message
...
Hi All
Looking for views on what to do next with my Jack Russell. My mind
changes every minute!!
He's 8; got a grade 2 tumour removed from his stomach but with dirty
margins. The vet didn't want to take too much into his stomach muscles or
too near his penis. Ultrasound, bone marrow and lymph node tests showed
it hadn't spread. Oncologist said best to use vinblastine. Met with
surgeon; suggested another op to remove the required inch margins which
will require large incisions up his sides to stretch his skin to cover the
hole. Also take a bit of his muscle out. 2 days in hops and 3 week
recovery. I'm just so concerned about another big operation and he
perhaps doesn't come through it or goes through it and doesn't get any
better. He is so very healthy right now and not suffering at all.
I'd appreciate anyone's view/thoughts and if anyone's had any experience.
I feel I'm too emotionally attached (obviously!!) when perhaps the
operation might be the right thing that will give him another few years!
But who knows?
Thanks for your help
mags

"Spot" wrote in message
news:M%Q4h.12570$3r6.11653@trndny09...
Is he taking Benedryl & cimetadine? If not he should be the Benedryl
keeps the histamines from going balistic in his system. That's one of the
things these tumors do they release massive amounts of histamines and
produce excess stomach acid. They can release enough histamines to send a
dog into anaphalactic shock.

I treated Barney with these two for over 5 years. And in that time span I
stopped them after the first surgery like my vet said to and he developed
another tumor less than 7 weeks later. After that he stayed on the
medications daily. He never eventually developed one in his mouth that we
couldn't operate on. I feel that the drugs while it may not have kept him
mast cell free that they did help give him a few more years that he would
not have had.

Right after he passed away there was information that cumin helps with
cancer. I didn't have the opportunity to try it with Barney but here is
the information on it. It might be something you can add to his
treatment. http://youngagain.com/cumin1.html There are quite a few
articles if you google cumin cancer

The other thing I would do is massage him nightly. It's the fastest way
to catch any tumors that are starting. Regardless of how small it is get
it biopsied ASAP. The key to keeping ahead of this is to catch it early.

Good Luck
Celeste


"Mags" wrote in message
...
Hi All
Looking for views on what to do next with my Jack Russell. My mind
changes every minute!!
He's 8; got a grade 2 tumour removed from his stomach but with dirty
margins. The vet didn't want to take too much into his stomach muscles
or too near his penis. Ultrasound, bone marrow and lymph node tests
showed it hadn't spread. Oncologist said best to use vinblastine. Met
with surgeon; suggested another op to remove the required inch margins
which will require large incisions up his sides to stretch his skin to
cover the hole. Also take a bit of his muscle out. 2 days in hops and 3
week recovery. I'm just so concerned about another big operation and he
perhaps doesn't come through it or goes through it and doesn't get any
better. He is so very healthy right now and not suffering at all.
I'd appreciate anyone's view/thoughts and if anyone's had any experience.
I feel I'm too emotionally attached (obviously!!) when perhaps the
operation might be the right thing that will give him another few years!
But who knows?
Thanks for your help
mags



Thanks for your help; he's not taking anything except some "Mast cell"
herbal tonic and maritime pine bark. and changed his diet to all natural
foods and no carbohydrates (except from veg/fruit). Also using cottage
cheese and flax seed oil!
I never knew of these medications; only options I were given were chemo,
another op or "do nothing". I'll speak to my vet today.
He does have another couple of lumps but they said they weren't mast cell
(but I found it odd they just showed up after the first cancerous one!)
Thanks again for all help; I want to have as much info as possible, but it
seems one professional only has one option which makes it difficult for
someone with no idea like me!!
mags

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 02:42:23 GMT, "Mags"
, clicked their heels and said:


I never knew of these medications; only options I were given were chemo,
another op or "do nothing". I'll speak to my vet today.

I think it's important to get clean margins, so perhaps they were
pushing you in that direction. Still, prednisone, benadryl (or
atarax/hydroxyzine) and tagamet/cimetidine are widely prescribed for
mast cell cancer. I'm amazed that your vet didn't prescribe or
discuss this. May be time to find a different vet.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

"Janet B" wrote in message
...
Still, prednisone, benadryl (or
atarax/hydroxyzine) and tagamet/cimetidine are widely prescribed for
mast cell cancer. I'm amazed that your vet didn't prescribe or
discuss this. May be time to find a different vet.

..........ditto, ditto, ditto. Years ago I never had Benedryl mentioned to
me either. They did mention Tagamet, but it gave my dog an upset stomach.
Pred, though, I can see waiting on, as it is used in high doses a a
chemotherapeutic agent. Certainly I would think it would be one of the
choices and I wouldn't call it *doing nothing*.


buglady
take out the dog before replying

"Mags" wrote in message
...

I never knew of these medications;
........Benedryl is an over the counter anti-histamine. Cimetidine
(histamine irritates the stomach and can cause ulcers - this med is for the
stomach) is over the counter also - brand name Tagamet. I really don't know
if Benedryl has any effect on the mast cell cancer itself, though it may.
And I just read that Cimetidine may have some effect also (so you could be
right Celeste!). Certainly Benedryl can help with inflammation. Both of
these can help with symptoms. Some dogs can't tolerate Tagamet - I had one
that threw up. If no one has mentioned these to you, well, they're not
doing all they can for your dog. I think sometimes vets get overwhelmed
with cancer cases continually walking in the door and sort of give up. No
reason for you to buy into that kind of thinking.

only options I were given were chemo,
another op or "do nothing".
.............Hmmm, at one point they were treating mast cell cancers with
high dose steroids, which basically tamps down the immune system. Mast
cells are a normal part of the immune system, so this method helps keep
their proliferation in check. I guess I find it unusual that they're
limiting options. ASAIK radiation has also been used for mast cell cancer.

........You mentioned an oncologist I think. So you've been to a specialist
and that is all he/she has said - one chemo drug or nothing? You can't be
shy when talking to these people if you are going to do the best you can for
your dog. Read your eyeballs off. Ask questions. If you can't get any
answers out of the oncologist as to why he/she is only suggesting one chemo
drug and nothing else, then I'd try to find a second opinion. Radiation
therapy may not be available in your area, I don't know. And it's a long,
frequent, expensive process, so it may not be an option, BUT all the options
should have been presented to you with the oncologist explaining WHY the one
offered is the best choice in his/her opinion. There are certainly premier
institutions I would seek out if I lived anywhere near them - Cornell,
Colorado State, Gulf Coast Vet in Houston, UC - Davis, U of Penn, or really,
any of the large university vet schools.

,,,,,I urge you to read this site (very reputable) and also check all the
links. The better informed you are the better discussion you can have with
a specialist. And I'm not convinced that your oncologist is giving you all
the options. Do you mind mentioning where you are? Perhaps others can give
you recommendations of institutions or oncologists they have worked with in
your area.
Crash Course in Mast Cell Cancer:
http://www.kateconnick.com/library/mastcelltumor.html

I don't know if this link was included above, but it is a very good overview
of ALL treatment possibilities:
http://www.vetbiomed.murdoch.edu.au/...%2520Club_Arti
cle7a.pdf

A few more links:
http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/CLERK/Nesbit/
J. of Am Vet Med Assoc - these cost big bucks to download - see if your vet
or any vet in the area would copy them for you:
http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs...?journalCode=j
avma
http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs...68?cookieSet=1
&journalCode=javma

http://veterinaryrecord.bvapublicati...ct/158/9/287?e
toc
http://www.gcvs.com/oncology/gcvo_tumorinfo.htm

These studies will cost you 5 bucks to get full text, which you can access
immediately on line:
http://www.jaaha.org/cgi/content/abstract/38/5/458
http://www.jaaha.org/cgi/content/abstract/40/4/309
http://www.jaaha.org/cgi/content/abstract/40/2/124

.........I urge you to go to www.ivis.org and sign up for access to this
site. You don't have to be a vet (unless they've changed the rules - if so
email me - don't forget to take out the dog! - and I'll send you articles).
The proceedings from the WSAVA (World SMall Animal Vet Assn) and the annual
Canine Cancer Conference are available at this site.

I'll speak to my vet today.
He does have another couple of lumps but they said they weren't mast cell

..........He needle biopsied them? Honestly, unless they're warts on the
OUTSIDE of the dog, any lump at this point, to me at least, would be
suspicious and should be biopsied. And ask your vet for the proper dose of
Benedryl for your dog. There's no reason I can think of NOT to give it to
your dog while you're figuring out what to do. Make sure you get plain
Benedryl, as there's pills for sinus that have extra stuff in them.
..........I'd get copies of all of your records WRT this dog, including a
copy of the histopathology report on the tumor.
............One more thing. In some kinds of cancers you do NOT want to
stimulate the immune system. Mast cell cancer is such an animal, because it
is basically an overstimulation of one part of the immune system. Hence,
before using any alternative or adjunct therapy, I'd try to consult with a
holistic vet or any vet who is familiar with the use of herbs and
nutraceuticals.

I know this is a lot of reading, but really, being informed on what is out
there is the best way to have a good discussion with a vet or a specialist.
Please post back and let us know how your pup is doing.

All the best,
buglady
take out the dog before replying

"buglady" wrote in message
news

"Mags" wrote in message
...

I never knew of these medications;
.......Benedryl is an over the counter anti-histamine. Cimetidine
(histamine irritates the stomach and can cause ulcers - this med is for
the
stomach) is over the counter also - brand name Tagamet. I really don't
know
if Benedryl has any effect on the mast cell cancer itself, though it may.
And I just read that Cimetidine may have some effect also (so you could be
right Celeste!). Certainly Benedryl can help with inflammation. Both of
these can help with symptoms. Some dogs can't tolerate Tagamet - I had
one
that threw up. If no one has mentioned these to you, well, they're not
doing all they can for your dog. I think sometimes vets get overwhelmed
with cancer cases continually walking in the door and sort of give up. No
reason for you to buy into that kind of thinking.

only options I were given were chemo,
another op or "do nothing".
............Hmmm, at one point they were treating mast cell cancers with
high dose steroids, which basically tamps down the immune system. Mast
cells are a normal part of the immune system, so this method helps keep
their proliferation in check. I guess I find it unusual that they're
limiting options. ASAIK radiation has also been used for mast cell
cancer.

.......You mentioned an oncologist I think. So you've been to a
specialist
and that is all he/she has said - one chemo drug or nothing? You can't be
shy when talking to these people if you are going to do the best you can
for
your dog. Read your eyeballs off. Ask questions. If you can't get any
answers out of the oncologist as to why he/she is only suggesting one
chemo
drug and nothing else, then I'd try to find a second opinion. Radiation
therapy may not be available in your area, I don't know. And it's a long,
frequent, expensive process, so it may not be an option, BUT all the
options
should have been presented to you with the oncologist explaining WHY the
one
offered is the best choice in his/her opinion. There are certainly
premier
institutions I would seek out if I lived anywhere near them - Cornell,
Colorado State, Gulf Coast Vet in Houston, UC - Davis, U of Penn, or
really,
any of the large university vet schools.

,,,,,I urge you to read this site (very reputable) and also check all the
links. The better informed you are the better discussion you can have
with
a specialist. And I'm not convinced that your oncologist is giving you
all
the options. Do you mind mentioning where you are? Perhaps others can
give
you recommendations of institutions or oncologists they have worked with
in
your area.
Crash Course in Mast Cell Cancer:
http://www.kateconnick.com/library/mastcelltumor.html

I don't know if this link was included above, but it is a very good
overview
of ALL treatment possibilities:
http://www.vetbiomed.murdoch.edu.au/...%2520Club_Arti
cle7a.pdf

A few more links:
http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/CLERK/Nesbit/
J. of Am Vet Med Assoc - these cost big bucks to download - see if your
vet
or any vet in the area would copy them for you:
http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs...?journalCode=j
avma
http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs...68?cookieSet=1
&journalCode=javma

http://veterinaryrecord.bvapublicati...ct/158/9/287?e
toc
http://www.gcvs.com/oncology/gcvo_tumorinfo.htm

These studies will cost you 5 bucks to get full text, which you can access
immediately on line:
http://www.jaaha.org/cgi/content/abstract/38/5/458
http://www.jaaha.org/cgi/content/abstract/40/4/309
http://www.jaaha.org/cgi/content/abstract/40/2/124

........I urge you to go to www.ivis.org and sign up for access to this
site. You don't have to be a vet (unless they've changed the rules - if
so
email me - don't forget to take out the dog! - and I'll send you
articles).
The proceedings from the WSAVA (World SMall Animal Vet Assn) and the
annual
Canine Cancer Conference are available at this site.

I'll speak to my vet today.
He does have another couple of lumps but they said they weren't mast cell

.........He needle biopsied them? Honestly, unless they're warts on the
OUTSIDE of the dog, any lump at this point, to me at least, would be
suspicious and should be biopsied. And ask your vet for the proper dose
of
Benedryl for your dog. There's no reason I can think of NOT to give it to
your dog while you're figuring out what to do. Make sure you get plain
Benedryl, as there's pills for sinus that have extra stuff in them.
.........I'd get copies of all of your records WRT this dog, including a
copy of the histopathology report on the tumor.
...........One more thing. In some kinds of cancers you do NOT want to
stimulate the immune system. Mast cell cancer is such an animal, because
it
is basically an overstimulation of one part of the immune system. Hence,
before using any alternative or adjunct therapy, I'd try to consult with a
holistic vet or any vet who is familiar with the use of herbs and
nutraceuticals.

I know this is a lot of reading, but really, being informed on what is out
there is the best way to have a good discussion with a vet or a
specialist.
Please post back and let us know how your pup is doing.

All the best,
buglady
take out the dog before replying


Where to begin... I'm overwhelmed! First of all, I'm in Australia and I
went to the only specialist place in my region! The oncologist mentioned
radiation in first consultation but said there is none in all of Aus for
animals and they have to sort of "sneak in the back door" to use ones for
treating humans. After he did tests that option was dropped. He said there
was an 85% success rate using that drug, but that wasn't what I read; I've
really nowhere else to go. I really would fly to US if it was feasible and
not more stress for my dog!! I did read surgery was best and oncologist
mentioned only 3 vets in our area could possibly manage such a large op, one
of whom worked at the hospital. After consulting with a surgeon there, I
really didn't think I wanted to go through it when he is so healthy now and
that has been consensus on talking to others. I am trying to get an
appointment to see a holistic vet in the area.
Thank you so very much for all your effort and information; I shall read
through them.
Best regards
Mags

"Mags" wrote in message
...
First of all, I'm in Australia and I
went to the only specialist place in my region! The oncologist mentioned
radiation in first consultation but said there is none in all of Aus for
animals and they have to sort of "sneak in the back door" to use ones for
treating humans. After he did tests that option was dropped.
..........too bad. I think they used to do that here too, sneak in. If
there's anywhere close they'll let you do that, well, I'd put it back on the
table, because I think radiation has a proven track record, especially for
dirty margins. It's probably a pain the rump to arrange, but don't let him
take it out of the equation for that reason.

He said there
was an 85% success rate using that drug, but that wasn't what I read;
...........I don't know offhand - I'd have to go back and read more. By
itself, I kind of doubt it. The protocol seems to be vincristine AND
prednisone. I'd like to know where he got that statistic, if it's something
he read or has direct experience with. I always ask what THEIR experience
is - and what they consider a good outcome - quality of life, life
expectancy, how old the dogs were. I'm not a big fan of chemo unless it's
apparent that it's actually going to make a difference. It has a good track
record with lymphoma, but don't think that's true with the rest of the
canine cancers. I think in some cases it's just something they can DO,
offer someone something, whether or not it does much good.

I did read surgery was best and oncologist
mentioned only 3 vets in our area could possibly manage such a large op,
one
of whom worked at the hospital. After consulting with a surgeon there, I
really didn't think I wanted to go through it

........I don't blame you. With mast cell cancer, the first surgery is the
most important. Since they'd have to take some of your dog's muscle out, I
think I'd pass on that too. I had a lab with mast cell cancer. The lump
was on his side and he had a 9 inch incision as they tried to undermine the
skin and get all they could of the tumor and still have enough to stitch him
back together. He made it another 1/1/2 yrs and left the planet at over 13
yrs. I was offered nothing else, except Tagamet, which made him vomit.

I am trying to get an
appointment to see a holistic vet in the area.

..........good. Adjunctive therapy can be helpful. They could probably
even help you with decisions on standard treatment options. If nothing
else, I think I'd try prednisone as in high doses it acts like chemo.

good luck and keep us posted
buglady
take out the dog before replying