I brought a new dog home tonight (more about him later). We introduced
the dogs in the yard, they got on great, then we all went in (new dog on
a leash), the cats checked him out, he didn't care about them. I let him
off the leash and he happily explored Everything was good so far until I
STUPIDLY!!!! gave them each a bone. They went into different rooms to
enjoy them. At one point, new dog left his somewhere, saw Roxy chewing
on hers in another room and attacked her pretty aggressively. I broke up
the fight, made sure new dog knew I was displeased, then consoled Roxy.
There was no blood drawn, despite all the flying fur, and I realized my
mistake right away. (My daughter is still upset...)

So I put new dog in his crate briefly, picked up every toy in the house
(while kicking myself) then took both dogs outside. They seemed just
fine. Roxy got over her fear pretty quickly and tried to engage new dog
in play. He was more interested in sniffing every square inch of the
yard, but at one point they did start taking turns chasing each other
with no signs of aggression. Back in the house (dealt with upset
daughter), no more problems, and now new dog is asleep in his crate in my
daughter's room and Roxy is with me. After googling this group, I'm not
sure how to go forward and avoid more problems.

Obviously I need to supervise them when they are together and keep them
seperated when I cannot. I also plan to feed new dog outside as my
kitten likes to play with Roxy's food while she is eating and I
definitely don't want that happening with new dog, but what else do I
need to be aware of? I see signs that new dog is already considering me
a resource to be guarded, as he kept trying to get between Roxy and me
when I was petting her. I basically pushed him aside a bit and kept
petting them both. I know I can successfully manage the situation, but
is there hope that in the future this will cease to be an issue? If so,
how do we get there? I have NO idea what I'm doing here. This doesn't
have to be a deal breaker, right??

--
Lynne


"Every once in a while, the tables are turned and we get to share our
lives with an animal who takes care of their human." - Tara, rpdb

Lynne wrote:
I see signs that new dog is already considering me
a resource to be guarded, as he kept trying to get between Roxy and me
when I was petting her. I basically pushed him aside a bit and kept
petting them both. I know I can successfully manage the situation, but
is there hope that in the future this will cease to be an issue? If so,
how do we get there? I have NO idea what I'm doing here. This doesn't
have to be a deal breaker, right??

No sign of resource guarding against humans? I'd supervise, make sure
if they have something valuable, they are in their crates or separated.
Feed separately. Only takes a bit of management. I would also separate
when you can't supervise, just in case. Animals coming into a situation
always have some adjustments to make. The fact that the scuffle was
noisy but not bloody is a very good sign. I'd also be practicing adding
treats to his food and "trading" objects to be certain that it doesn't
become an issue of guarding against humans as well, though frequently
the two (guarding against other animals and guarding against people)
don't occur in the same dogs. Broomsandy

on Sat, 18 Nov 2006 04:36:16 GMT, "Sandy in OK"
wrote:

No sign of resource guarding against humans?

I'm going to test him with this tomorrow. I hope it doesn't get ugly, as
I'm a bleeder.

I just took him out for a midnight potty break, and he and Roxy did fine
again. I made sure to pet her first and let her out and in the door
before him so he knows she is important to me. I'm trying not to wig out
about this, but I'm more than a little worried he may decide something
one of the cats is playing with is something he wants and really hurt one
of them. On the other hand, I know this might just be a food thing and
that is easily managed. I just don't know the extent of yet.

I do see good signs that he is seeking my approval so I hope this is
something we can work through. I'm damn far out of my league here, but I
really want to make this work!!

Is resource guarding such as what happened tonight considered dog
aggression? By that, I mean do I need to keep him out of group training
classes?

--
Lynne


"Every once in a while, the tables are turned and we get to share our
lives with an animal who takes care of their human." - Tara, rpdb

Lynne wrote:

No sign of resource guarding against humans?

I'm going to test him with this tomorrow. I hope it doesn't get ugly, as
I'm a bleeder.


You know, if you are observant you should be able to tell if it's
likely to get ugly without getting yourself bitten. Most resource
guarders will "freeze" with their head slightly oriented toward
whatever it is that they are guarding. Look for stillness, changes in
pupil size, change in breathing pattern. etc. And if you see any of the
above, maybe rethink your plan. It's a shame we are a little past
Halloween. I got me a nifty disembodied arm and hand - stick a dowel
rod down it and you have a nice, effective extension. It would probably
gross my human students out less if it had less fake blood on it. Dog
wants to bite that, it's a lot cheaper than stitches.

If the dog is really in an adrenalized state, you push that dog at your
own risk. And if you get yourself bitten, it's your own stupidity.
Resource guarding can be hardwired and almost like OCD, but it also can
be just a misunderstanding of how things need to work in your world. I
rehabbed an otherwise very sweet and tolerant rescue by hand feeding,
adding treats to her food dish, trading for higher value stuff, etc. I
had to fight the Rescue over her because that was considered human
aggression by our president. But the dog came out of it nicely. I
would NOT have sent her to a home with children, but the new owner has
kept up her protocol and it hasn't been an issue. Jean Donaldson has a
good book on the subject called "Mine!" Basically, instead of
challenging the dog and punishing the dog, you change the dog's
perception.and teach the dog that giving stuff up to people frequently
brings better things.


I just took him out for a midnight potty break, and he and Roxy did fine
again. I made sure to pet her first and let her out and in the door
before him so he knows she is important to me. I'm trying not to wig out
about this, but I'm more than a little worried he may decide something
one of the cats is playing with is something he wants and really hurt one
of them. On the other hand, I know this might just be a food thing and
that is easily managed. I just don't know the extent of yet.

I do see good signs that he is seeking my approval so I hope this is
something we can work through. I'm damn far out of my league here, but I
really want to make this work!!

Is resource guarding such as what happened tonight considered dog
aggression? By that, I mean do I need to keep him out of group training
classes?


I wouldn't consider it dog aggression per se. It's a very specific
issue. And I think it shouldn't keep him out of group classes if he's
otherwise suited for it. Just be sure he knows that guarding you gets
him a time out, while hanging nicely gets the good stuff. But you want
to be proactive. Watch him closely and redirect him if he's giving
another dog "the eye". Dogs can't aggress something they aren't
focussed on. Work with a trainer who is willing to let him work a bit
off to the side if necessary. On the other hand, you must be able to
avoid giving him signals that there is something to be worried about.
Be confident and have a game plan! BroomSandy

on Sat, 18 Nov 2006 06:46:19 GMT, "Sandy in OK"
wrote:

You know, if you are observant you should be able to tell if it's
likely to get ugly without getting yourself bitten. Most resource
guarders will "freeze" with their head slightly oriented toward
whatever it is that they are guarding. Look for stillness, changes in
pupil size, change in breathing pattern. etc. And if you see any of
the above, maybe rethink your plan.

Thank you, this is advice I needed.

It's a shame we are a little past
Halloween. I got me a nifty disembodied arm and hand - stick a dowel
rod down it and you have a nice, effective extension. It would
probably gross my human students out less if it had less fake blood on
it. Dog wants to bite that, it's a lot cheaper than stitches.

Superglue works in lieu of stitches! (As a rock climber, I have learned
these nifty tricks.)

If the dog is really in an adrenalized state, you push that dog at
your own risk. And if you get yourself bitten, it's your own
stupidity

I agree.

Resource guarding can be hardwired and almost like OCD, but
it also can be just a misunderstanding of how things need to work in
your world.

I sure hope it's the latter.

Jean Donaldson has a good book on the subject called "Mine!"
Basically, instead of challenging the dog and punishing the dog, you
change the dog's perception.and teach the dog that giving stuff up to
people frequently brings better things.

I ordered this book last night after reading a bit on the dogwise forums.

I wouldn't consider it dog aggression per se. It's a very specific
issue. And I think it shouldn't keep him out of group classes if he's
otherwise suited for it. Just be sure he knows that guarding you gets
him a time out, while hanging nicely gets the good stuff. But you want
to be proactive. Watch him closely and redirect him if he's giving
another dog "the eye". Dogs can't aggress something they aren't
focussed on. Work with a trainer who is willing to let him work a bit
off to the side if necessary. On the other hand, you must be able to
avoid giving him signals that there is something to be worried about.
Be confident and have a game plan! BroomSandy

Thank you, this is all great advice.

This morning I fed the dogs in sight but out of reach of each other.
Roxy got her food first while new dog was outside, and then he got his.
He watched Roxy eat from outside while not touching his own food. He
growled at her a few times until I told him no. He was definitely alert
and intent on watching her eat. I then went outside and hand fed him a
bit and afterward, left him outside while Roxy ate. One of the cats came
and sniffed around Roxy's dish and new dog observed. I hope I'm doing
this right.

They were playing outside a little while ago and new dog found a stick.
Roxy went up to him and sniffed at the stick, and he didn't seem to care.
I was ready to jump in but didn't need to this time. I'm very hopeful
this is just a food/bone issue.

--
Lynne


"Every once in a while, the tables are turned and we get to share our
lives with an animal who takes care of their human." - Tara, rpdb

wrote:
HOWEDY sandy in OK aka Thirty Years Trippin ACID ANNIE,

Sandy in OK wrote:
Lynne wrote:
I see signs that new dog is already considering me a resource to be guarded,

That's SHEER INSANITY, Acid Annie {): ~ (

ALL aggression is FEAR. ALL FEAR is CAUSED BY MISHANDLING.

You can continue to say that until you are blue, but the fact is you
are STILL wrong and don't have a clue...

on Sat, 18 Nov 2006 14:48:36 GMT, montana wildhack
wrote:

top posting to thank you for this advice!

My experience with our pack iteraions lead me to believe that dogs will
try and see what they may get away with. Roxy told new dog he couldn't
get away with trying to sample her bone. It probably won't be the last
time.

And yes, doing the bone thing wasn't a good idea, but it's not the end
of the world. Don't beat yourself up over that. We always had to
closely supervise bones because they were high value and we had a
stable pack. We had to be careful with toys, too, but they weren't as
valuable as bones. If one small mistake ruined everything, no-one would
have any relationships.

I'd probably limit the new guy's access to the cats and their toys for
a while until he begins to feel at home.

I wouldn't worry so much about displays of affection, and as a matter
of fact, would spend less time showing affection. I would also not
have"comforted" Roxy. (And I'm sure we're going to be going through
this - again - when we introduce the new dog). Dogs will snark at each
other, but you have to tell them that's not acceptable behavior.

I would walk both dogs together several times a day. The old adage
about tired dogs being good dogs is true and I think it's easier to get
them used to each other through walking. Neither one of them realizes
that new dog is staying and that life is changing.

Make each dog sit and wait for a command before it may eat. Again, you
reenforce obedience skills. It sounds very reasonable to feed them
separately and also to feed the new dog away from the cats.

Wwork on obedience training with each dog and with both dogs. I think
you need to make it clear to both dogs that you are the queen of the
universe, the maker of rules, and she from whom all good things come.
They will figure out how to interact with each other, but it isn't
reasonable to think this will happen right away. This is where they
need you to give them structure.

Take a deep breath, you're going to be fine and the dogs are going to
be fine. I don't think it's reasonable to expect things to go perfectly
right away. I'd judge where you are after a couple of months, but
meanwhile, don't confuse human feelings with dog feelings, have
confidence in yourself, and monitor/manage interaction.

That's just my opinion as a very average pet owner and someone who, but
for the last year has had a multiple dog household.




--
Lynne


"Every once in a while, the tables are turned and we get to share our
lives with an animal who takes care of their human." - Tara, rpdb

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 21:52:51 -0600, Lynne
wrote:

I know I can successfully manage the situation, but
is there hope that in the future this will cease to be an issue? If so,
how do we get there? I have NO idea what I'm doing here. This doesn't
have to be a deal breaker, right??

Definitely not a deal breaker. With the really high value treats like
the chewies, you may never want to feed them together, but many
multi-dog households do that anyway. That's not a big deal. For both
the petting and the food pushiness, it doesn't sound like it is a huge
nasty issue. Some of it may resolve as the dog gets more used to your
situation. We had a really pushy dog for affection who learned to
back off when it didn't pay off. If he was in your face demanding, he
didn't get petted. If he quietly waited his turn, he got a turn. He
quickly learned how to get what he wanted. You don't have to be a pro
trainer to deal with stuff like that. I'd keep an eye on things so
you see how it goes with time before going into a panic. Work on
rewarding not being pushy or resource guarding as well as managing
situations where it might come up in the meantime and my guess is
you'll have a great new family member with minimal trouble. Certainly
this is a small hassle given what you could have got in a new dog. He
gets along with everyone and every animal. He just needs to learn how
to share and what the rules are in his new home.

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

In article ,
Paula wrote:
Some of it may resolve as the dog gets more used to your
situation.

I've found that what happens during the acclimatization
period can help set the tone for the stuff that follows but
it doesn't determine it. Along with all the other new stuff
the dogs are exploring a new relationship. Crow actually
sent a couple of the other females to the vet and I was
thinking about returning her, but once she let everybody
else know the lay of the land she was fine. Slick spent his
first two weeks shoving his big galoot head over everybody
else's shoulders, and he's an easy-going (about life around
the house, anyway - he can be kind of manic while hooking
up), accommodating gentledog. Keep an eagle eye on stuff,
set boundaries, be firm and fair, and expect the occasional
confrontation.

Also, the new dog has no way of knowing whether or not he'll
ever see one of those fabulous treats again and he'll tend
to be kind of opportunistic about it.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

The Milton Friedman Choir:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...47019713273360

Lynne wrote in
:

I have NO idea what I'm doing
here. This doesn't have to be a deal breaker, right??


First off, CONGRATS on your new doggie!

Get your hands on a book called _Mine!_ by Jean Donaldson. Its not a long
book, but it can be a little bit technical in how its written. But its an
*excellent* manual for how to handle resource guarding in dogs.

And, yes, you went wayyyy too fast and gave this dog far too much freedom
combined with a far too valuable an issue to deal with right off the bat.
Control their environments until they learn to trust each other, he learns
to trust you, and you have a handle on his behavior.

Basically, the equivalent is adopting an unknown (more or less) 16 year old
kid and handing him the keys to your new sportscar after knowing him for an
hour. He doesn't know the rules, he doesn't know his new family, and he
doesn't have a grasp on what was expected. Under those conditions, you
handed him the keys to shiny Corvette, didn't check to see if he even had a
license and told him to take for a spin. That's *never* going to end well
in that context. heh.

But since things calemd down, and since you're dealing with it immediately,
things will probably be all right. But try to get that book.

Tara