Hi all,

Just found this list and I'm hoping someone can lead me in the right
direction on something that puzzles me. I've got a good knowlege of
human dominance over the pet individual and "pack" but wonder about how
my two stack up with each other. We humans are definitely alpha here
but I'm not sure about their positions. Understanding that might help
me deal with them. I don't know because they have some conflicting
behaviors that point to both being dominant and submissive.

We have two female house dogs, age 12 and 6. I work from home so they
get lots of attention and I probably observe more than the average pet
owner just because I'm here most of the time.

The oldest is a corgie/aussie mix, mellow and sweet, highly
intelligent, bold and somewhat independent (I'll submit to petting when
I want!) and vigilantly territorial about our proparty (an acre). She
inhales her food (a corgi trait I hear). She was a stray about 6
months old that I rescued and fit in well with our two adult big dogs
(both male and 75lb+).

The younger is a minature poodle who was given to me by a friend who
breeds in her home a litter a year or less. We had the older dog and
lost both old housecats within 3 years of her arriving. She never
really liked them but tolerated them. She is smart, sweet, cheerful,
entertaining, sensitive and quite submissive to humans. Definitely a
Miss Priss type, my first poodle and she fits the stereotype. She's
really more like a teddy bear, loves to be cuddled and tries hard to
get attention by being sweet when she sees we are giving the other one
attention. Many times there is no conflict between the two and they run
and play and hang out together, lounging on the porch for example. But
she sometimes (10-15% of the time) goes off the deep end and growls and
makes nasty at the other when that dog walks into the room where she is
with us for example. I see that as dominance but maybe it's just her
trying to get dominance.

Older dog tolerates this behavior but they have "gotten in each others
face" about a dozen times and the older one puts her mouth on the back
of the younger one's neck while growling. I interpret that at dominance
as she can get the little one to back down.

Here is the behavior I wonder about and if it will really tell me who
is truly the top dog of these two: the younger one regularly and
usually goes over and sniffs the older one's behind when she comes in
from outside or in from another room. She is really sniffing her
thoroughly and the older one just stands there and looks back while she
is being checked out. It's a ritual for sure. I just want to know what
it means. This is NEVER reversed, the older never sniffs the younger.
Both were spayed at about one year old.

Any theories? Or any reference to good doggie behavior reference
materials that would cover behavior cues like this?

Thanks for any insight.
Leena

wrote in
oups.com:

Just found this list and I'm hoping someone can lead me in the
right direction on something that puzzles me. I've got a good
knowlege of human dominance over the pet individual and "pack"
but wonder about how my two stack up with each other. We humans
are definitely alpha here but I'm not sure about their
positions. Understanding that might help me deal with them.

Isn't that something the "definite alpha" ought to know? I'd think
it would be part of the job description.

She's really more like a teddy bear, loves to be cuddled and
tries hard to get attention by being sweet when she sees we are
giving the other one attention. Many times there is no conflict
between the two and they run and play and hang out together,
lounging on the porch for example. But she sometimes (10-15% of
the time) goes off the deep end and growls and makes nasty at
the other when that dog walks into the room where she is with us
for example. I see that as dominance but maybe it's just her
trying to get dominance.

It's impossible to tell without seeing it in person, but it sounds
to me like jealousy/resource guarding. Don't let her do that!

Also, I think you are getting sidetracked by worrying about
dominance and submission. Dogs sort that out on their own (and I
don't mean by fighting it out). Human preoccupation with which dog
is dominant, and interference on behalf of the dog they think
*ought* to be dominant, can cause far more harm than good. Best to
let the dogs sort that out, because they will anyway, whether you
like it or not.

Older dog tolerates this behavior but they have "gotten in each
others face" about a dozen times and the older one puts her
mouth on the back of the younger one's neck while growling. I
interpret that at dominance as she can get the little one to
back down.

It certainly sounds like she's trying to tell the younger dog to
knock it off and stop being a spoiled, jealous brat. She wouldn't
have to do that, though, if you were doing *your* job by ensuring
that the younger dog wasn't allowed to be a spoiled, jealous brat.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

Pancakes!
-- Dennis, Cabin Fever

wrote in message
oups.com...

Hi all,

Just found this list and I'm hoping someone can lead me in the right
direction on something that puzzles me. I've got a good knowlege of
human dominance over the pet individual and "pack" but wonder about how
my two stack up with each other. We humans are definitely alpha here
but I'm not sure about their positions. Understanding that might help
me deal with them. I don't know because they have some conflicting
behaviors that point to both being dominant and submissive.
snipped

Leena.

Hi Leena,
Don't get too hung up on "dominance" .
Havea look at the links on this website.

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

Alison
http://catinfolinks.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/
http://doginfolinks.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/
http://petinfolinks.mysite.orange.co.uk

said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

I've got a good knowlege of
human dominance over the pet individual and "pack" but
wonder about how my two stack up with each other. We humans
are definitely alpha here but I'm not sure about their
positions. Understanding that might help me deal with them.
I don't know because they have some conflicting behaviors
that point to both being dominant and submissive.

I don't put any faith into alpha theory as it applies to dog-
human interaction.

What is "human dominance"?

My dogs know that I'm in charge because all good thing come from
me - food, toys, walks, training, car rides... I don't need to
dominate them (whatever that means) to have their indefatigable
and slavering loyalty.

[snip everything else 'cause Shelly answered it darn good]

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Rocky wrote in
:

I don't put any faith into alpha theory as it applies to dog-
human interaction.

Yep. For one thing, dogs are smart enough to realize that we
humans aren't dogs (alas, the inverse cannot be said of some
humans).

What is "human dominance"?

I believe that's illegal in most jurisdictions.

My dogs know that I'm in charge because all good thing come from
me - food, toys, walks, training, car rides... I don't need to
dominate them (whatever that means) to have their indefatigable
and slavering loyalty.

Exactly.

[snip everything else 'cause Shelly answered it darn good]

Why, thank you.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

Tell no one what you are about too see. It should never have been
attempted by humans in the first place.
-- Melora Creager

Shelly said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

I don't put any faith into alpha theory as it applies to
dog- human interaction.

Yep. For one thing, dogs are smart enough to realize that
we humans aren't dogs (alas, the inverse cannot be said of
some humans).

I like that about CM - he doesn't put up with owners treating
their dogs like humans.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Rocky wrote in
:

I like that about CM - he doesn't put up with owners treating
their dogs like humans.

PLONK!1!!eleventy!1!

Ahem. I agree, but I think CM also tends to go too far in the
opposite direction, where he strays into alpha-dominance-submission
land. (-- not for fnarring!)

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

Each colour is applied to the canvas in relation to the colours
next to it. The painting becomes a living thing and calls out for
the colour it wants.
-- Neil Patterson

Dogs are actually more social animals than "pack" animals. In a natural
state they are scavengers who make loose associations with other dogs,
and may have a degree of hiarchy, but not a strong pack organization
that would be needed for cooperative hunting. Ethologist and wolf
expert L David Mech has also proposed that most of the alpha/omega
stuff you see in wolves is actually derived from observing captive,
artificial packs. That most wild packs are actually family units and
the interactions are considerably different. What you are seeing may be
more a matter of dogs expressing what things are important resources to
them than expressing true dominance. BroomSandy

Shelly said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

I like that about CM - he doesn't put up with owners
treating their dogs like humans.

PLONK!1!!eleventy!1!

Ahem. I agree, but I think CM also tends to go too far in
the opposite direction, where he strays into
alpha-dominance-submission land.

I agree with your agreement's modifier, but I like to read a
bunch, watch a bunch, and steal the good stuff. Hey, even
"Beverly Hills Vet" has a nugget every now and then.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Rocky wrote in
:

I agree with your agreement's modifier, but I like to read a
bunch, watch a bunch, and steal the good stuff.

I tend to be that way with pretty much every subject I'm interested
in *except* dogs. I realize it's weird, but while I read a lot of
books on dogs, I can't stomach very much in the way of television
shows about them. Whenever I try watching them, I end up either
feeling ill or throwing things at the TV.

Hey, even "Beverly Hills Vet" has a nugget every now and then.

That's one I haven't encountered, which is probably for the best.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

Do *not* sit next to Dennis.
-- Cabin Fever