A dog & canine forum. DogBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » DogBanter forum » Dog forums » Dog behavior
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Clicker training?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old November 28th 06, 11:57 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Scooter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13
Default Clicker training?

Based on Sandy's response in another thread (thanks, Sandy!), I have
been doing some web research on clicker training. Assuming it works
half as well as the testimonials (always a risky assumption, I know),
why wouldn't everyone use it? It's simple, positive, maybe even fun,
and I don't see any downside. I'm on my way to Barnes & Noble now to
check out some training books and plan to try it, but before I do, is
there anything I should know? Is this going to be yet another way for
me to screw up poor Ozzie?

Thanks,

Scooter

  #2  
Old November 29th 06, 12:04 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Janet B
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,260
Default Clicker training?

On 28 Nov 2006 14:57:02 -0800, "Scooter" ,
clicked their heels and said:

Based on Sandy's response in another thread (thanks, Sandy!), I have
been doing some web research on clicker training. Assuming it works
half as well as the testimonials (always a risky assumption, I know),
why wouldn't everyone use it?


There's no harm in it at all, but it's not necessarily everyone's
preferred method for a number of reasons. Testimonials, to ANYTHING,
tend to be a little over the top gushy IMO. Doesn't matter what the
product it!

It's simple, positive, maybe even fun,
and I don't see any downside.


I'm not convinced about that simple part. I've encountered a number
of people doing weird things in the name of clicker training, and even
clicker trainers don't always agree on the fine points! I know some
pretty skilled trainers who don't like clicker training because they
find it cumbersome. Obviously, a lot of others like it. It's a
personal choice. Not right or wrong, just a choice.

I'm on my way to Barnes & Noble now to
check out some training books and plan to try it, but before I do, is
there anything I should know? Is this going to be yet another way for
me to screw up poor Ozzie?


Poor timing, in any method, can screw up the dog. In person training
is really a good idea, regardless of method chosen. Doing the work is
an important factor as well, and an instructor generally has a well
thought out lesson plan, that teaches things at a certain pace and in
a certain order, which has proven successful.

Good luck with whatever you choose, and your dog will be better off
for it!


--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
  #3  
Old November 29th 06, 12:13 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Melinda Shore
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,732
Default Clicker training?

In article .com,
Scooter wrote:
Based on Sandy's response in another thread (thanks, Sandy!), I have
been doing some web research on clicker training. Assuming it works
half as well as the testimonials (always a risky assumption, I know),
why wouldn't everyone use it? It's simple, positive, maybe even fun,
and I don't see any downside.


I think it's a lot of fun, and I use it for some stuff. It
requires really good timing and I think it's a good idea to
learn it in a class context from an instructor who really
knows what he or she is doing. You don't want to get off on
the wrong foot and end up being one of those people who uses
the clicker to recall the dog.

I've found that not all dogs take to it with equal
enthusiasm and I've had better luck getting younger dogs
onto the clicker than older dogs. In particular, younger
dogs will have fewer inhibitions about offering new
behaviors and I think that dogs that started on a clicker as
puppies are a riot to work with. I don't work with the
clicker when the dogs are a distance from me. I know people
who do it; it's a skill I haven't mastered myself. I will
say that I think that if you've got a dog that really
understands the clicker it's the single best way to get a
sleddog (i.e. a manic, congenital puller) to heel.

On the other hand I'm not crazy about it for fixing some
problem behaviors. In the pulling case there's a clear
alternative (heel) but I think that if you're trying to
teach a dog not to eat your curtains, using the clicker will
take too long and runs the risk of allowing the behavior to
become ingrained and self-reinforcing.

It's best to have a big training toolkit and know what to
use when.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
  #4  
Old November 29th 06, 03:37 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Suja
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 873
Default Clicker training?


"Scooter" wrote in message:

Assuming it works
half as well as the testimonials (always a risky assumption, I know),
why wouldn't everyone use it?


Dogs, being individuals, don't exactly all respond equally well to all types
of training. I have tried clicker training, and found it to be frustrating.
More importantly, my dog was confused by it.

My timing is pretty good, so I didn't find it particularly useful to use the
clicker as a reward marker. Khan is very much a 'Just tell me what you want
me to do' kind of dog, and neither of us has the kind of patience it
required to shape behaviors, which is where the power of clicker comes in.
I have used it with Pan, and it can be fun and interesting. Standard lure
training works just fine for both dogs, so that's what I've stuck with.

A friend of mine has a dog who really took to the clicker. Once he got the
concept that he might get rewarded for throwing behaviors, he became
obsessed by it, and was *constantly* trying something to get a reward (with
or without a clicker around). She had to stop working with him and using a
clicker entirely for a while to get him back on an even keel. That was
probably the most bizarre reaction I've seen to clicker training.

Suja


  #5  
Old November 29th 06, 03:43 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Robin Nuttall
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,344
Default Clicker training?

Suja wrote:
"Scooter" wrote in message:


Assuming it works
half as well as the testimonials (always a risky assumption, I know),
why wouldn't everyone use it?



Dogs, being individuals, don't exactly all respond equally well to all types
of training. I have tried clicker training, and found it to be frustrating.
More importantly, my dog was confused by it.


I'm curious. Did you try it on your own? Or with the help of someone who
was an experienced clicker trainer?


My timing is pretty good, so I didn't find it particularly useful to use the
clicker as a reward marker.


The clicker isn't really a reward marker. It's an EVENT marker. It does
not take the place of praise, nor is it a reward in itself. It simply
marks a moment you want to capture, and means "you did right, reward is
coming." It's sort of a fine difference, but to me it's an important one.


Khan is very much a 'Just tell me what you want
me to do' kind of dog, and neither of us has the kind of patience it
required to shape behaviors, which is where the power of clicker comes in.


Acutally I rarely use it to shape behaviors, but rather to mark the
moment when the dog is doing what I want. It doesn't have to be used
ONLY to shape behaviors, and can be a very powerful tool even without
shaping.


A friend of mine has a dog who really took to the clicker. Once he got the
concept that he might get rewarded for throwing behaviors, he became
obsessed by it, and was *constantly* trying something to get a reward (with
or without a clicker around). She had to stop working with him and using a
clicker entirely for a while to get him back on an even keel. That was
probably the most bizarre reaction I've seen to clicker training.


It sounds to me like your friend did something a bit wrong. Dogs
continually throwing behaviors in the hope of getting a click really
aren't being successfully clicker trained. A successful clicker trainer,
even when shaping, helps the dog move toward and end behavior rather
than just continuing to throw random stuff at the handler. If the
clicker is being used properly, that sort of behavior isn't rewarded so
it tends to not last long.

People tend to harp that clicking requires good timing. Well all dog
training requires good timing. Clicker requires the ability to read and
understand your dog--and *that* can take some practice.

Me, I tend to use click/treat for more stationary behaviors and
obedience type finesse moves such as fronts, straight finishes,
backwards heeling, etc. I use toys and tug for in motion behaviors like
jumping and weaving. I find it a fun and powerful tool, but it's not the
only one in my toolbox.
  #6  
Old November 29th 06, 03:48 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Jeff Dege
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 144
Default Clicker training?

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:57:02 -0800, Scooter wrote:

Based on Sandy's response in another thread (thanks, Sandy!), I have
been doing some web research on clicker training. Assuming it works
half as well as the testimonials (always a risky assumption, I know),
why wouldn't everyone use it? It's simple, positive, maybe even fun,
and I don't see any downside. I'm on my way to Barnes & Noble now to
check out some training books and plan to try it, but before I do, is
there anything I should know? Is this going to be yet another way for
me to screw up poor Ozzie?


Some dogs don't like the noise.

No big deal. Use some other noise.

The crux of the training is using a positive reinforcement marker, not
using the little plastic toy.

--
Wars are seldom caused by spontaneous hatreds between peoples, for peoples
in general are too ignorant of one another to have grievances and too
indifferent to what goes on beyond their borders to plan conquests.
They must be urged to slaughter by politicians who know how to alarm them.
- H. L. Mencken

  #7  
Old November 29th 06, 05:16 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Rocky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,678
Default Clicker training?

Robin Nuttall said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

The clicker isn't really a reward marker. It's an EVENT
marker. It does not take the place of praise, nor is it a
reward in itself. It simply marks a moment you want to
capture, and means "you did right, reward is coming." It's
sort of a fine difference, but to me it's an important one.


I use a vocal event marker (a quick "yes") in agility - training
and in trials.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
  #8  
Old November 29th 06, 06:07 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Suja
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 873
Default Clicker training?


"Robin Nuttall" wrote in message:

I'm curious. Did you try it on your own? Or with the help of someone who
was an experienced clicker trainer?


No, it was in our intermediate obedience class. Khan understood the whole
click/treat thing, and we worked him on stuff he knew first. The problem
with him was that he is very into not rocking the boat, and it was difficult
to get him to progress. If something got him c/t, he'd repeat it endlessly,
but wouldn't progress if it was no longer being rewarded. He would default
to stuff he knows, and when that doesn't work, would 'woo-woo' and leave.
It is possible that I should've been looking for even smaller signs of
progress than I was, but it was just so much easier to continue to do what
was working just fine. I remember that it took 3x 5 minute sessions to
teach him something just by luring that I couldn't get done in a week with a
clicker because he wouldn't go past step 1.

The clicker isn't really a reward marker. It's an EVENT marker.


Poor choice of words on my part.

Acutally I rarely use it to shape behaviors, but rather to mark the
moment when the dog is doing what I want.


I find it easier (and handier) to just use praise/treat.

It sounds to me like your friend did something a bit wrong. Dogs
continually throwing behaviors in the hope of getting a click really
aren't being successfully clicker trained.


I honestly don't know how it all went down. I know that she started off
using it to capture behavior, and eventually worked on shaping stuff. From
there, it somehow got to the point where he was randomly throwing stuff
(with or without clicker) constantly. I know that she responded to his
obsession quickly, but it took a loooong time before he'd stop. He has some
OCD behavior (like shadow chasing), and this somehow seems to have fed into
that, I think.

Suja


  #9  
Old November 29th 06, 02:16 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Robin Nuttall
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,344
Default Clicker training?

Rocky wrote:
Robin Nuttall said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:


The clicker isn't really a reward marker. It's an EVENT
marker. It does not take the place of praise, nor is it a
reward in itself. It simply marks a moment you want to
capture, and means "you did right, reward is coming." It's
sort of a fine difference, but to me it's an important one.



I use a vocal event marker (a quick "yes") in agility - training
and in trials.


I use that too sometimes, but it's important to understand that they are
not the same. The "yes" is praise. The clicker is not praise, it's an
event marker.

The reason why voice is less effective than a click, light flash, or
other totally neutral mark is because our voice inflection always
changes. The "yes" we say at the end of a long, frustrating session
where we're just trying to salvage something positive is very different
than the "yes" we say when the dog nails that weave entry from a
difficult angle the very first time at speed.

Also, there's some scientific data (and I can't remember the cite,
sorry) that the click is actually faster than voice. It takes less time
for the brain to send an impulse to the finger than it does for the
brain to process a signal and turn it into words. So clicking actually
improves timing.
  #10  
Old November 29th 06, 02:21 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Janet B
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,260
Default Clicker training?

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:16:59 GMT, Robin Nuttall ,
clicked their heels and said:

The "yes" is praise. The clicker is not praise, it's an
event marker.


Only if used as such. Words are just words, noises are just noises.
How one chooses to use either, defines their meaning.


--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.2.0 (Unauthorized Upgrade)
Copyright ©2004-2024 DogBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.