I used to be very, very against e-collars. I'm still against poor use
of them (or any other tool!). Until I really learned, in person, from
someone I trusted, I thought the same way as many of the objectors do.
I think it's a good idea to see things in person. Reading is not the
same, a video is not the same, and even personalized conversation is
not the same. SEE how things can be used. FEEL what they feel like
(even if you think that dogs = people except rubber shoes - go
barefoot!). I have. I changed my mind.

I still don't use them for most things, never intend to. Not because
of any evil, pain or aversive factor though, but because I think that
anything I have to carry (even around my neck or in my pocket or
around my waist) is a PITA.

I doubt that most of the hysterical types are willing to go see how
e-collars can be used, but it's a thought.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

Janet B wrote:
I used to be very, very against e-collars. I'm still against poor use
of them (or any other tool!). Until I really learned, in person, from
someone I trusted, I thought the same way as many of the objectors do.
I think it's a good idea to see things in person. Reading is not the
same, a video is not the same, and even personalized conversation is
not the same. SEE how things can be used. FEEL what they feel like
(even if you think that dogs = people except rubber shoes - go
barefoot!). I have. I changed my mind.

I still don't use them for most things, never intend to. Not because
of any evil, pain or aversive factor though, but because I think that
anything I have to carry (even around my neck or in my pocket or
around my waist) is a PITA.

I doubt that most of the hysterical types are willing to go see how
e-collars can be used, but it's a thought.
--

And yet, I'm not sure how using the collar for aversion training (to
feces) is "modern" use. And I don't think I was the only person
confused by the concept of using an ecollar for weave poles.

On 2 Jan 2007 15:31:58 -0800, "Sandy in OK" ,
clicked their heels and said:

And yet, I'm not sure how using the collar for aversion training (to
feces) is "modern" use.

It's not. It's classic.

And I don't think I was the only person
confused by the concept of using an ecollar for weave poles.

I understand that, but then none have seen it used for such.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

Janet B wrote:


I understand that, but then none have seen it used for such.

And yet, some of us with far more agility experience than you have are
saying it's a very poor idea. At the very least it's a totally
unneccessary tool for the job at hand. My bet is that it's probably also
ineffective in creating the kind of weave performance I want to have and
I want my students to have. If you care to name names of who uses it so
effectively for agility competition I'd certainly be willing to listen.

I agree with Janet. Any tool when used properly is ok but when abused and
not understood that's a whole different thing.

Out of desperation I purchased one two years ago for Lady. Once she was
spooked by noises outside at night the barking was non stopable. Nothing we
did would stop her the second she was out the door she took to wildly
barking. Living in town this was not an option. I had to stop it before I
got a complaint from the neighbors. I bought one of the e-collars that I
control it has a tone button and a button for stimulation along with 10
levels. It was the best money I ever spent. The barking stopped within a
matter of 3 trips out the door at night. The critter chasing took just one
lesson to stop. I can honestly say she's a very well behaved dog and I
seldom ever need to use the collar any.

Celeste



"Janet B" wrote in message
...
I used to be very, very against e-collars. I'm still against poor use
of them (or any other tool!). Until I really learned, in person, from
someone I trusted, I thought the same way as many of the objectors do.
I think it's a good idea to see things in person. Reading is not the
same, a video is not the same, and even personalized conversation is
not the same. SEE how things can be used. FEEL what they feel like
(even if you think that dogs = people except rubber shoes - go
barefoot!). I have. I changed my mind.

I still don't use them for most things, never intend to. Not because
of any evil, pain or aversive factor though, but because I think that
anything I have to carry (even around my neck or in my pocket or
around my waist) is a PITA.

I doubt that most of the hysterical types are willing to go see how
e-collars can be used, but it's a thought.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

Spot wrote:
I agree with Janet. Any tool when used properly is ok but when abused and
not understood that's a whole different thing.

Ya' know, I finally have just about enough time and distance from the
horrors of abusive training (and make no mistake, people who abuse
ecollars would be abusive if the only tools they had were their fists
and feet) that I can look at it more objectively and dispassionately
now.

And mulling over it to respond to this thread has made me realize is
that I truly believe that the ecollar is an amazing and potentially
wonderful technology. And that there are people who are geniuses at
devising training systems to use it's instantaneous dispassionate
ability to communicate complex concepts to vastly different species.
And that used properly it could enhance any creature's willingness and
understanding in any venue by increasing or decreasing the occurance of
any type of behavior in any animal (humans included).

BUT I also believe that humans are not evolved enough to handle this
power. Pretty much the same way I feel about nuclear energy, or the
Internet, for that matter. Where there is enormous potential there are
people who will twist its use with evil intent.

As a species, we may have "invented" the concept of morality, but I
would rather my dogs have the technology to inflict that type of abuse
on me than vice versa, because I don't have a doubt in my mind that
they would be a damn sight more "moral" in its application.


Susan Fraser, owned and trained by the AuH2Ok9s:
SheBop, Shammie and Gris-gris

Do you have any videos demonstrating the proper way to molest children
as you do? I'm sure there are plenty of pedophiles out there that
could learn from your experiences.

Can you also explain how you sold a scam black box DDR thing to people
and got away with it? I'm sure others out there would love to learn
how you scam people.

Can you explain why you promised to leave this group when you lied and
you didn't? You EVEN admitted to lying and you are still here. Why
are you still here?

"Susan Fraser" wrote in news:1167805677.645206.137170
@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:

As a species, we may have "invented" the concept of morality, but I
would rather my dogs have the technology to inflict that type of abuse
on me than vice versa, because I don't have a doubt in my mind that
they would be a damn sight more "moral" in its application.

My dogs want to know if there are hot dogs on the line. Never mind, they
are taking the fifth on the whole morality thing.

I don't think dogs would do any better, necessarily. The problem is that
people assume that we are that much better than the animals who are just
out to get their needs met however they can. The fact that humans are
capable of more analysis and control of their actions and reactions only
speaks to potential. How that pans out in the reality is up to the
person. You can choose to use your reasoning ability to continue to get
what you want no matter what that costs others or you can use it to find
balance and "humanity" in how you deal with others. My dogs might weld
my ass to the ground with a shock collar if they could get everything in
the fridge out of it. But they don't pretend to be superior beings.
Well, other than the chihuahua, anyway. And she wouldn't use the ecollar
in the first place because she has already trained my daughter to the dog
owner equivalent of a top retriever crossed with a shutzhund champion
with other methods. But then Faith is not only a superior being, she
also chose the right pet to begin with.


Paula

I don't think dogs would do any better, necessarily. ...
My dogs might weld
my ass to the ground with a shock collar if they could get everything in
the fridge out of it.

Nah, they already have the equivilent - a mouth full of teeth and
faster reflexes. And yet I taunt them by eating yummies from the fridge
in their salivating presence all the time. Haven't had my throat ripped
out yet, even when they're starving (which is of course, all the time,
them being Goldens, ya know).

But they don't pretend to be superior beings.

My point exactly. *IF* they were to use their teeth on me, it would
definatley not be just to bolster their egos or look tough in front of
their buds. And I'm quite positive that winning a ribbon or getting a
title wouldn't be a priority either. For survival? Maybe (last hot dog
on earth and all that). but I betchya if there were enough hot dogs
they'd let me have some.

Well, other than the chihuahua, anyway.

LOL! I grew up with one. And yes, I'm *still* one well-trained hoomin!

Susan Fraser and the AuH2Ok9s:
SheBop, Shammie and Gris-Gris

On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 01:13:09 GMT, Robin Nuttall ,
clicked their heels and said:

If you care to name names of who uses it so
effectively for agility competition I'd certainly be willing to listen.

I don't. I don't believe in dragging people's names into something
without their desire to be involved. If I come across a website where
someone is discussing it, I'll be happy to provide a link to that.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com