Hello all,

As someone new to this newsgroup, and relatively inexperienced in bringing
up dogs, I just wanted to muse for a moment or two on how bewildering it can
be for us mere mortals to know what's right and what's not. There seem to be
so many approaches and theories - many of which seem to be explained in ways
that make sense, but many of which are very different from one another.
There are those that say that we have to think and act like the head of the
pack, and that that's how our dogs will see us and treat us if we do it
properly. But even amongst the people who say that, there are some who say
that we should use discipline and corrections in much the same way that the
pack leader would use it, imitating growling, staring the dog down when it
steps out of line, even maybe a smack across the nose. Then there are others
who, while saying we need to behave like pack leaders, say we shouldn't use
punishment at all - but should imitate the pack leader in other ways, such
as always eating first, keeping our dogs physically below us, and so on.
Then there are still others who say that dogs don't see us as dogs at all,
that they know we're different to them and we should not attempt to act like
pack leaders but rather train them only through rewards and never through
trying to be the dominant one.

I find all of these approaches and theories seem to make some sense when I
think about them, and while I can and do try to do a little bit of all of
them to a degree, there are some points where they are just plain
contradictory, and so I then worry that I might be doing the wrong thing.

Sorry to go on about it - and obviously there's no absolute undisputed way
of knowing what's right and what's not. But I did wonder if anyone has ever
seen any really objective comparison of different techniques, or anything
that might help poor lost souls like myself find their way?

Many thanks for any thoughts,
Ian

dogs do have different personalities... and you have to use a variety of
methods to train... the books only tell you really how to train yourself to
train a dog you want to own... one that you can live with... oh wait i
should correct myself a bit here... the GOOD books... only ...

using violence, and I mean that in a very minor way, doesn't work unless you
do it in a very imitating way to a very young pup where you would imitate
the way a mother may disicpline her dog... shaking the scruff, grabbing and
putting down quickly... but these also only work until the age of 2-3
months... by the time you get your puppy, it will have already *hopefully
with rare exceptions* have already learned as much as it can from its
mother.... and anything that a mother dog would do for dicipline, would NOT
injure the pup, but startle and put it in its place... as in many cases of
pups and children... the behaviour is suddenly out the brain and a new
behaviour may enter the brain.... it could be the same behaviour... *G*...

so in general... not a good thing... you have to be careful to not do
something to 'increase' or worsen the behaviour... learn dog language and
what they are saying to you... the whole "I konw I did somethingbad and I
feel bad" look with the head down and ears back/down doesn't mean that... it
means I was just doing something that the owner b arks about and now I have
to give the owner calming signals and leave the room so I don't get barked
at...

one example... as I'm thinking of my dog getting into the butter look...

smack accross the nose would generally never be used by any reputable
trainer... positive reenforcement is used for the most part... treats, happy
talk etc...

I have had some advice for more hands on not so friendly training, but not
totally negative training either ... saying "hey" loudly, putting the dog
down quickly, grabbing the dog and telling it no/hey quickly catching the
behaviour in motion. *humping was this particular behaviour* and not my
dog... I use hey when my dog starts to pull on the leash andshe knows
automatically that I have a treat that she'll get as she gets back beside me
during walks...

pack leader mentality... pending on breed... most dogs think alike, and just
holding the dog down on its side or its backside till it gives in to you is
usually a good thing... you have to be able to handle your dog without it
fighting you, or biting, or scratching etc... you don't want to break the
dog though, just train it... I love how my dog won't give up, ever... when
she tried to dominate my boyfriend for the first time he had to hold her
down for about 90 minutes before she actually gave up and let him hold her
down... then she could get up... but she never dominated him again, and she
still won't give up when she is helping me with my sons seizures...

so yeah I think I digressed a bit from my origional post of just wanting to
say various dogs, various personalities, same thinking mentality... a lahso
apso, has the same thoughts going through its brain as a great dane... but
why would you allow one to bite and the other not to? bad training on one
part, responsible training on another...

do what works for you, most of what people offer here is advice, and not all
advice is complete, but check out puppy trainers in your area, and go to one
you really enjoy their style of... if you think something they are doing is
wrong, inquire as to why they are doing it... if the answer suffices you,
there you go...

in general... dog training is fun... a LOT of fun... and I highly recommend
the pennies in a can approach with positive reenforcement...

*doesn't work for bunnies.... its just a new thing to play with...*

"Ian P" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

As someone new to this newsgroup, and relatively inexperienced in bringing
up dogs, I just wanted to muse for a moment or two on how bewildering it
can
be for us mere mortals to know what's right and what's not. There seem to
be
so many approaches and theories - many of which seem to be explained in
ways
that make sense, but many of which are very different from one another.
There are those that say that we have to think and act like the head of
the
pack, and that that's how our dogs will see us and treat us if we do it
properly. But even amongst the people who say that, there are some who say
that we should use discipline and corrections in much the same way that
the
pack leader would use it, imitating growling, staring the dog down when it
steps out of line, even maybe a smack across the nose. Then there are
others
who, while saying we need to behave like pack leaders, say we shouldn't
use
punishment at all - but should imitate the pack leader in other ways, such
as always eating first, keeping our dogs physically below us, and so on.
Then there are still others who say that dogs don't see us as dogs at all,
that they know we're different to them and we should not attempt to act
like
pack leaders but rather train them only through rewards and never through
trying to be the dominant one.

I find all of these approaches and theories seem to make some sense when I
think about them, and while I can and do try to do a little bit of all of
them to a degree, there are some points where they are just plain
contradictory, and so I then worry that I might be doing the wrong thing.

Sorry to go on about it - and obviously there's no absolute undisputed way
of knowing what's right and what's not. But I did wonder if anyone has
ever
seen any really objective comparison of different techniques, or anything
that might help poor lost souls like myself find their way?

Many thanks for any thoughts,
Ian

Ian P wrote:
I find all of these approaches and theories seem to make some sense when I
think about them, and while I can and do try to do a little bit of all of
them to a degree, there are some points where they are just plain
contradictory, and so I then worry that I might be doing the wrong thing.

Can you think of one single area in life where all the experts,
wanna-be experts and involved amateurs agree on everything? I can't.
People have different experiences by which to approach things, and many
approaches can work. But they won't necessarily all work together. So,
if you "try to do a little bit of all of them to a degree", not only
will you make yourself crazy, but worse, you will make your dog crazy.

First thing to do is research and find out what ideas resonate with
your own experience. Form a training philosophy and look for the ideas
which work and fit with it. What you will do, what you won't do, what
you would only do in certain situations. Look for knowledgable people
whose approach fits your philosophy. And if at any point, your gut
tells you "this is wrong" believe yourself. If you're uneasy with a
technique, you aren't going to use it well, even if the theory behind
it is solid. And keep your mind open. Training philosophies can change
dramatically with new information and new experience. Growth is good

My theory about dog training is that it is very simple (as opposed to
very easy). Dogs do what works. If something works for them, they'll
try it again. If they test it and find out that it never works, they'll
give it up (possibly not without an extinction burst). Our job as dog
trainers is to make the things we like "work" and the things we don't
like "not work." That may involve offering reinforcement. It may
involve punishment. It will probably involve some management. And it
will require that at least some of the time you are able to be smarter
than your dog. BroomSandy

"Ian P" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

As someone new to this newsgroup, and relatively inexperienced in bringing
up dogs, I just wanted to muse for a moment or two on how bewildering it
can be for us mere mortals to know what's right and what's not.

Once again, many thanks to everyone for your thoughts and advice. It's very
much appreciated. I think I'm getting the hang of it all now. In any event,
the two little puppies seem very happy, are pretty well behaved and, more
times than not, do what I tell them to ... so something seems to be working.

Thanks again for your advice and insights. It really is very much
appreciated!!

Ian

Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Resear
wrote:
HOWEDY ian p,

"Ian P" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

As someone new to this newsgroup,

NOT EXXXACTLY NEW, ian p. You been readin these
muggers for months pryor to gettin your puppys AND, you
GOT your JUST DESSERTS, didn't you, ian p {}: ~ (

and relatively inexperienced in bringing up dogs,

ONLY LIARS, DOG, CHILD and SP-HOWES
abusers post here abHOWETS, ian p {}: ~ (

I just wanted to muse for a moment or two

The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard been
TELLIN YOU for months NHOWE, ian p. You CHOSE to
DISREGARD the SCIENTIFIC and CASE HISTORY DATA.

No, he chooses to ignore a child molesting fool who has no idea what
he's talking about. Wouldn't you ignore such a person? Oh - maybe not
- since you don't have a brain, AssHowe.

Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Resea
wrote:
HOWEDY mikey aka pat aka unsurreality you pathteic miserable stinkin
lyin animal child an spHOWES abusin punk thug coward active acute
chronic life long incurable mental case and dog trainin FRAUD an SCAM
ARTIST,

wrote:
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Forensic_Sciences_Resear
wrote:
HOWEDY ian p,

"Ian P" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

As someone new to this newsgroup,

NOT EXXXACTLY NEW, ian p. You been readin these
muggers for months pryor to gettin your puppys AND, you
GOT your JUST DESSERTS, didn't you, ian p {}: ~ (

and relatively inexperienced in bringing up dogs,

ONLY LIARS, DOG, CHILD and SP-HOWES
abusers post here abHOWETS, ian p {}: ~ (

I just wanted to muse for a moment or two

The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard been
TELLIN YOU for months NHOWE, ian p. You CHOSE to
DISREGARD the SCIENTIFIC and CASE HISTORY DATA.

No, he chooses to ignore a child molesting fool

You sez you got The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
child molesting COURT RECORDS.

HOWE COME you DON'T POST THEM HERE, mikey?

Umm - you're so ignorant it's crazy. My lawyer told me not to,
AssHowe.


who has no idea what he's talking about.

We was talkin abHOWET ian p bein a dog abusin punk thug
coward and PROBABLY LIFE LONG INCURABLE MENTAL
CASE like yourself and your punk thug coward pals here abHOWETS.

Yeah yeah - everyone is a mental case except you, AssHowe. SURE. YOU
are the ONLY mental case and coward here. When are we going to meet,
AssHowe? Are you SCARED???