We are about to bring a 3 year-old Rotti into our family. She is a rescued
dog (stray). She is a licky-face, healthy, alpha-female. Known issues from
the shelter are that she doesn't like most other female dogs, but gets along
with most males. Also, that she will chase anything zipping by...bikes,
cats, kids etc.

The handlers at the shelter suggested a "5 minute rule". They explained that
anytime we separate from her for ANY length of time, we ignore her for 5
minutes and go about our business. The 5 minutes are to start from when she
settles and leaves us alone. They further explained that this was a way to
replicate the way dominance is established in "wild packs". Dominant members
will come back to the pack from a "hunt" or whatever and ignore other
members at first. I assume that by ignoring subservient members the alpha
member would enforce it's self-importance or alpha status.

I think this will be very difficult... for me, not so much the dog. I mean,
I'd like to come in and love her to bits right away.

So, are there any opinions out there on this 5 minute rule?

Thanks in advance

Grolsch

"Grolch" wrote in message
news:MI7ph.123420$rv4.72488@edtnps90...


We are about to bring a 3 year-old Rotti into our family. She is a rescued
dog (stray). She is a licky-face, healthy, alpha-female.

Forget the alpha part. It's not all that relevant to your needs, may not
even be true. If she doesn't like other female dogs, then you'll have to
remember that and take precautions when she will need to be around one. And
even then, it may not be universally true - it just may have been the other
female dogs she encountered at the shelter. But take the warning and be
aware.

The handlers at the shelter suggested a "5 minute rule". They explained
that anytime we separate from her for ANY length of time, we ignore her
for 5 minutes and go about our business. The 5 minutes are to start from
when she settles and leaves us alone. They further explained that this was
a way to replicate the way dominance is established in "wild packs".
Dominant members will come back to the pack from a "hunt" or whatever and
ignore other members at first. I assume that by ignoring subservient
members the alpha member would enforce it's self-importance or alpha
status.

I think this will be very difficult... for me, not so much the dog. I
mean, I'd like to come in and love her to bits right away.

Your Rottie is not a wild wolf. So it's really not important what wolves
may or may not do in the wild. (Besides that, every video I've seen shows
the returning wolf being greeted by the members who had stayed back at the
den.) But anyway.............

My husband would be very unhappy if he were not greeted by our dogs
ENTHUSIASTICALLY every single time he comes in the door. (Duration of
absence is not relevant to them.) The dogs watch for his truck, squeal
excitedly when they see it and race to the door to greet him. He gets licks
and nose nibbles for as long as he'll accept them. This is a very important
part of dog ownership for him. And clearly also for the dogs.

Did the shelter mention any particular behavior on your dog's part that made
them suggest this? Or is it their generic advice? I suppose there may be
problems with some individual dogs that might be addressed by a change in
your behavior but if it works for you - as it always has in my experience
with my dogs - then feel free to ignore the shelter handlers. Unless there
was a specific reason to suggest it for your dog, then I'd also feel free to
consider them idiots. But that's me.

And in general, the whole dominant/subservient thing is not a good way to
establish a relationship with your dog. Most dogs do not need to be taught
that you are in charge. They know that you're not a dog. If they know that
you provide the food, that you determine the rules of the household and of
their behavior (and I'm talking manners here primarily), then they've got a
pretty good idea about the household hierarchy.

When our dogs greet my husband (or me) at the door, they aren't greeting the
dominant member of their pack returning from a kill. They aren't at all
confused about whether or not we're the dominant dogs - they know that we're
not. They are greeting the people that they adore and who adore them.

Judy
Never Underestimate The Warmth Of A Cold Nose

Judy wrote:
Your Rottie is not a wild wolf. So it's really not important what wolves
may or may not do in the wild. (Besides that, every video I've seen shows
the returning wolf being greeted by the members who had stayed back at the
den.) But anyway.............


I agree, one thing that really bugs me is when people try and treat
their dog as if it were a wolf. Similarly people who treat their dog
like it is their child. Dogs are not wolves, nor are they children.
They should be treated like they are a dog. It is fine to love your
dog like your child, but some people truly do treat them like children.
And considering how well behaved some children are, do you really want
dogs acting like a lot of people's kids.

Nick

One bright night in the middle of the day on Wed, 10 Jan
2007 15:35:08 GMT, in rec.pets.dogs.breeds "Grolch"
wrote:

The handlers at the shelter suggested a "5 minute rule". They explained that
anytime we separate from her for ANY length of time, we ignore her for 5
minutes and go about our business. The 5 minutes are to start from when she
settles and leaves us alone. They further explained that this was a way to
replicate the way dominance is established in "wild packs".

This is straight out of Jan Fennell's "The Dog Listener."
And yes... I believe in this and have recently begun using
this in my day-to-day life with our pack of 3 dogs. HTH...
*~ *~ *~
Karen C.
Spammers be damned! I can't be emailed from this account! So there...

"You have no power here!
...Be gone! Before somebody drops a house on you too!"

wrote in
:

One bright night in the middle of the day on Wed, 10 Jan
2007 15:35:08 GMT, in rec.pets.dogs.breeds "Grolch"
wrote:

The handlers at the shelter suggested a "5 minute rule". They
explained that anytime we separate from her for ANY length of
time, we ignore her for 5 minutes and go about our business. The
5 minutes are to start from when she settles and leaves us
alone. They further explained that this was a way to replicate
the way dominance is established in "wild packs".

This is straight out of Jan Fennell's "The Dog Listener."
And yes... I believe in this and have recently begun using
this in my day-to-day life with our pack of 3 dogs. HTH...

It seems to me that doing so punishes the dog for *good* behavior.
Aside from that, five minutes is an arbitrary quantity of time and
meaningless to the dog. I use time-outs, but they last only until
the dog regains use of her brain. As soon as she's calmed back
down and able to control herself, she's rewarded by being released.

And then there's the question of why anyone would want to
"dominate" their dog. It's not like my dog mistakes me for another
dog. She (thankfully!) is capable of recognizing that I'm a human,
and she interacts with me accordingly.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

Merz is a smile at the grave and gravity on cheerful occasions.
-- Kurt Schwitters

One bright night in the middle of the day on 16 Jan 2007
22:26:24 GMT, in rec.pets.dogs.breeds Shelly
wrote:

...five minutes is an arbitrary quantity of time and
meaningless to the dog.

Yes it is. And Jan Fennell states as much in her book. The
point is that she states you are to ignore the dog upon
returning home or from a separation until the dog commits
to settling down and becoming calm. At that point, you may
praise the dog and pay whatever attention you like. Wild
greeting behaviors and the dog or dogs invading your
personal space by jumping or whatever are thus, not
reinforced. But calm, relaxed behavior is.

*~ *~ *~
Karen C.
Spammers be damned! I can't be emailed from this account! So there...

"You have no power here!
...Be gone! Before somebody drops a house on you too!"

wrote:

Yes it is. And Jan Fennell states as much in her book. The
point is that she states you are to ignore the dog upon
returning home or from a separation until the dog commits
to settling down and becoming calm. At that point, you may
praise the dog and pay whatever attention you like.

But that's not what you or the OP described. You both described
ignoring the dog for five minutes beginning *after* the dog had
settled down.

FWIW, I think there are *very* good reasons to ignore a dog upon
returning home, but they have absolutely nothing to do with "wild"
dogs. Which is just as well, since I don't live with or have any
personal experience in handling wild dogs.

Wild
greeting behaviors and the dog or dogs invading your
personal space by jumping or whatever are thus, not
reinforced. But calm, relaxed behavior is.

Again, that has nothing to do with "wild" dogs, so why invoke them?
My dog is not a wolf, and why she may have a few behaviors in
common with wolves, I don't think it's helpful to get overly
attached to the connection. (I don't know how you are using the
term "wild." You might just mean "exuberant" or "enthusiastic," but
the OP very clearly meant it in the "not domestic" sense, so that's
how I'm interpreting it.)

--
Shelly (Warning: see label for details)
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

One bright night in the middle of the day on Tue, 23 Jan
2007 06:42:24 -0500, in rec.pets.dogs.breeds shelly
wrote:

But that's not what you or the OP described. You both described
ignoring the dog for five minutes beginning *after* the dog had
settled down.

Fennell says the "5-minute rule" is an arbitrary time
limit, but that it's a generally good place to start. You
may want to wait even longer or not, as you see fit and as
the current situation demands. I do not know how or why
she came up with this time limit. I guess you might read
the book if you wanted to know more. ??? shrugs

Truth be told, I do have the book. But I've not bothered
reading it cover to cover. I merely skimmed it and skipped
around and only read particular sections that may have
applied to me and my dogs... and that was awhile ago.
Guess I should get it out, dust if off and refresh my
memories.

It's just that the "5-minute rule" thing the OP talked
about was something I remembered well because that was
one thing I took from the book at the time I read it. It
was something that just "clicked" with me as making sense,
so I started using it -- or at least something similar. (I
don't pay strict attention to any sort of time limit. I
just wait until all my dogs are calm and relaxed and then
I greet them one by one.)

Again, that has nothing to do with "wild" dogs, so why invoke them?
My dog is not a wolf, and why she may have a few behaviors in
common with wolves, I don't think it's helpful to get overly
attached to the connection.

I think the general theory goes that domestic dogs are
direct descendents of wild dogs (wolves) and, based on
that fact, their behavior hasn't had enough time to
deviate dramatically from that of their genetic ancestors.
Thus, pack behavior and the way they see the world and
deal with each other in so far as communication and
dealing with issues like rank drive are sort of "set" in
them. That's not a direct quote from Fennell's book or
anything. It's my own interpretation of why different
authors say we should deal with our domestic dogs in a
similar manner to the way wild dogs deal with each other.

At any rate, I didn't mean "wild greeting behaviors" as in
THE wild. I meant wild as in exuberant and out of control.

*~ *~ *~
Karen C.
Spammers be damned! I can't be emailed from this account! So there...

"You have no power here!
...Be gone! Before somebody drops a house on you too!"

wrote in
:

Fennell says the "5-minute rule" is an arbitrary time
limit,

I'm not questioning the length of time (beyond why five minutes is
magical[1]), but the timing of the time-out. Why begin timing
after the dog has settled down? That goes against *everything* I
know about dog training, because you are actually punishing the dog
for complying.

I guess you might read the book if you wanted to know more. ???
shrugs

The original question was: "are there any opinions out there on
this 5 minute rule?"

Thus, pack behavior and the way they see the world and
deal with each other in so far as communication and
dealing with issues like rank drive are sort of "set" in
them.

This is where the equation falls apart. Relating to domestic dogs
as if they were wolves can create a whole lot of problems. For
instance, the OP's nonsense about his dog being an "alpha bitch"
(what does that *mean* out of context of a "wild pack"?).
Secondly, dogs are not dim enough to mistake us for dogs and/or
wolves. They know we are humans, and they are able to adjust their
behavior accordingly. Thank goodness, because I don't think I
could handle playing bitey face, not to mention being really
grossed out at the thought of regurgitating food for puppies.

At any rate, I didn't mean "wild greeting behaviors" as in
THE wild. I meant wild as in exuberant and out of control.

Understood. The OP was using "wild" differntly, which is why I
asked.

[1] Five minutes seems like an *awfully* long time for a time-out,
even when properly done. The only time one of my dogs has needed
more than a minute, if that, was when they were really keyed up
after fighting.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

The books that the world calls immoral are the books that show the
world its own shame.
-- Oscar Wilde

In article ,
Shelly wrote:
This is where the equation falls apart. Relating to domestic dogs
as if they were wolves can create a whole lot of problems.

This is one of the dominating flaws in Fennell's book - the
myriad other flaws radiate out from that.

Personally, I found the book really hard to read. I'd be
doing just fine and then suddenly the book would be sailing
through the air. I'd usually just let it rest where it
landed because I suspected that its next trick would be to
heave itself into the compost heap and I preferred to let
the urge pass rather than compost my first book. Anyway,
what with the sailing and laying and whatnot it took quite
awhile to get through it.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -

Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community