"Suja" wrote:
The whole time, neither I, not my dogs had moved an inch. I don't
know what her problem was, but those kids are going to grow up to be
scared of big dogs.

Or their mother. Or all of the above.

Khan has a suspected UTI. So, the dogs and I went to the vet yesterday.
Coming out of the exam room, I kept them both on shortened leashes, to
minimize shock to whoever is on the outside. About 10 ft. away were two
little kids with a Min-Pin on the leash. Khan was wagging his tail, Pan was
looking at me with that 'Can we get out of here already?' look, when the
mom, who was at the counter, started screaming at the kids to pick up the
dog. They were stunned. We were stunned. I put Khan in a down/stay and
said in my nice voice that they were dog friendly. She completely ignored
it and kept yelling at the kids to PICK UP THE DOG NOW!!!! Kids pick up the
dog, and it starts making the most 'Woe is Me!' noises ever. Then, she
starts yelling at the kids to get the hell away from the big dogs. So, I
said in my nice voice that they were kid friendly too. She just kept
yelling at the kids to stay away from the dogs. One of the kids asked me
what kind of dogs they were, and the mom interrupted by telling them to shut
up, not even look at the dogs and to stay the hell away from them. I
answered them politely. She paid, grabbed the dog out of the kid's hands,
and walked out as quickly as possible.

The whole time, neither I, not my dogs had moved an inch. I don't know what
her problem was, but those kids are going to grow up to be scared of big
dogs.

Suja

Suja wrote:
Khan has a suspected UTI. So, the dogs and I went to the vet yesterday.
Coming out of the exam room, I kept them both on shortened leashes, to
minimize shock to whoever is on the outside. About 10 ft. away were two
little kids with a Min-Pin on the leash. Khan was wagging his tail, Pan was
looking at me with that 'Can we get out of here already?' look, when the
mom, who was at the counter, started screaming at the kids to pick up the
dog. They were stunned. We were stunned. I put Khan in a down/stay and
said in my nice voice that they were dog friendly. She completely ignored
it and kept yelling at the kids to PICK UP THE DOG NOW!!!! Kids pick up the
dog, and it starts making the most 'Woe is Me!' noises ever. Then, she
starts yelling at the kids to get the hell away from the big dogs. So, I
said in my nice voice that they were kid friendly too. She just kept
yelling at the kids to stay away from the dogs. One of the kids asked me
what kind of dogs they were, and the mom interrupted by telling them to shut
up, not even look at the dogs and to stay the hell away from them. I
answered them politely. She paid, grabbed the dog out of the kid's hands,
and walked out as quickly as possible.

The whole time, neither I, not my dogs had moved an inch. I don't know what
her problem was, but those kids are going to grow up to be scared of big
dogs.

Suja

After giving this careful thought, I have come to a conclusion. Should
you ever run into this lady at the vet again, maybe you should
recommend she change to a vet that only caters to small dogs. Since
being around such large dogs is clearly not safe. Clearly there must
be something wrong with this vet since they actually allow large dogs
on the premises.

Nick

"Suja" wrote:

I don't know what her problem was,

It does sound like she was being irrational, however:

As the former owner of a small dog, and playing Devil's Advocate to some
extent, I'd guess she's had a frightening experience in the past with large
dogs treating her dog as prey. For all you know, she could have had a
previous small dog killed by a large dog whose owner assured her the dogs
were friendly.

Until you have OWNED a small dog, IMO you can't have any real understanding
of how terrifying it is to have your dog targeted by others simply because
s/he is small, nor what it's like to be aware that ONE BITE can end your
dog's life before your eyes.

"Sionnach" wrote in message:

It does sound like she was being irrational, however:

Yathink?

Until you have OWNED a small dog, IMO you can't have any real
understanding
of how terrifying it is to have your dog targeted by others simply because
s/he is small, nor what it's like to be aware that ONE BITE can end your
dog's life before your eyes.

I have no problems with people playing it safe. I just don't think that her
gross overreaction was warranted. My dogs were nowhere near her, the kids
or the dog, they were under control, showing appropriate and friendly body
language, and I assured her that they're dog friendly. Even if she thought
the dog would be targeted, there is no need to yell at the kids, ask them to
get away from the dogs (although they were already 10 ft. away already), and
in other ways, act like my dogs would eat her kids too. Especially after I
assured them that they were kid friendly too.

The whole thing could've been handled with less drama if she had just asked
the kids to move to the far end (where there were kid toys, books, a beanie
bag, etc.) with the dog, instead of standing right by the door. I would've
done that if I didn't think she'd flip when we walked past them to get to
the far end.

This conspiratorial exchange (it was cryptic) happened between a vet who had
been out for lunch and walked in after the family had left, and the
receptionist, while I was paying my bills. Near as I could tell, they were
even more relieved she was out of their hair than I was.

Suja

Suja wrote:
mom, who was at the counter, started screaming at the kids to pick up the
dog. They were stunned. We were stunned. I put Khan in a down/stay and
said in my nice voice that they were dog friendly. She completely ignored
it and kept yelling at the kids to PICK UP THE DOG NOW!!!! Kids pick up the
dog, and it starts making the most 'Woe is Me!' noises ever. Then, she
starts yelling at the kids to get the hell away from the big dogs. So, I
said in my nice voice that they were kid friendly too. She just kept
yelling at the kids to stay away from the dogs. One of the kids asked me
what kind of dogs they were, and the mom interrupted by telling them to shut
up, not even look at the dogs and to stay the hell away from them. I
answered them politely. She paid, grabbed the dog out of the kid's hands,
and walked out as quickly as possible.

The whole time, neither I, not my dogs had moved an inch. I don't know what
her problem was, but those kids are going to grow up to be scared of big
dogs.


Mommie Dearest sounds a trifle on the reactive side. But you know what?
I'd rather have that than have her allow her children to walk the
little dogs into the faces of much larger, stranger dogs - or have the
kids mob a strange dog. Even if the owners say they are friendly.
Surely there is a middle ground, or she could have instructed the
children before getting to the vets (where one expects to see animals
of all sizes and shapes). But one of my pet peeves is parents who are
much less than careful in these matters. They are the truest definition
of idiot.

"Suja" wrote:

I have no problems with people playing it safe. I just don't think that
her gross overreaction was warranted.

Still being Devil's advocate:

On the surface, obviously not. However, if she's had some sort of traumatic
experience in the past, she may not entirely be in control of her reaction.
Or, she may be a whack-job of some other sort, up to and including bi-polar.
Either way, she may not entirely have control of her reactions.

they were under control, showing appropriate and friendly body language,

But not everybody knows how to read that, even if they own dogs.

and I assured her that they're dog friendly.

Well...
I've been assured dozens of times that dogs are "just playing", "dog
friendly", etc., when they very much aren't; and I've seen quite a few dogs
get hurt, some seriously, when other dog owners believed what they were
told.

I don't trust what any dog owner, met for the first time, tells me unless
my reading of their dog matches what they say; if I didn't know how to read
dog body language - even that of breeds and individuals who don't "signify"
before they attack - I would NEVER trust what an owner says after some of
the experiences I've had.


Even if she thought
the dog would be targeted, there is no need to yell at the kids, ask them
to get away from the dogs (although they were already 10 ft. away
already), and in other ways, act like my dogs would eat her kids too.
Especially after I
assured them that they were kid friendly too.

See above; or ask any mailman or delivery person how many times they've
been bitten even as the owner assured them "He won't bite".

It's also entirely possible that her concern was, at least in part, that if
your dogs DID go after her dog, her kids would get bowled over in the
process. I've seen that happen several times over the years, resulting in
bruises, scratches and/or accidental bites.

And given the your size relative to the dogs, it's likely that she felt
that if your dogs DID lunge or charge at her dog, you wouldn't be able to
physically control them. (I've run into that myself a couple of times,
although my dogs are smaller.)

Most dog owners DON'T have the level of verbal control that you or I do, and
she'd never met you before.
Again, yes, an *educated* observer would have been able to tell your dogs
were trained and controlled, and that their body language backed up your
statements, but it doesn't sound like she had that level of awareness.


The whole thing could've been handled with less drama

No question. However, again, if she has a strong fear of big dogs -
especially if it's based in a past traumatic experience - she may not be
able to control her reactions.

Whatever the reason for her overreaction - phobia, past traumatic
experience, or other whack-jobity - it sounds like she needs some help.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not downplaying how unpleasant the experience
was for you - again, I was just responding with my thoughts on what her
problem could be. It's NEVER a pleasant experience when you have to deal
with people like that.
I'd say just be glad you weren't/aren't the people who work at the vet's
office; when I was working in retail, I dealt with irrational people like
that all the time.

WRT her getting help, I'm reminded of my next door neighbor, who's
absolutely terrified of ALL dogs, regardless of size - she literally has a
phobia - due to a serious attack when she was about 10.
However, she's worked with someone and learned to control her reactions to
some extent, as well as having learned what to do to avoid being attacked
(she does the "make like a tree" thing) and she knows her fear is somewhat
irrational.
She ALSO tries hard not to pass her phobia on to her daughter, AFAICT.

when I've come accross situations like this, for various reasons, I put the
dog down and step on her leash... she's use to that... then I invite the
kids to come over and pet her backside if they want to while its clear that
I have full control over the dog...

I've been around people who have said *sometimes she wears a halty around
the nose* that she has a muzzle on so she won't bite, I like to tell them..
nope she can still bite, this just helps me lead her when I'mwalking with
her... better than choke collars... and then I usually give her a treat to
demonstrate the bite aspect...

she won't lay a tooth on flesh of any sorts... then I go into explaining how
I use her for therapy and she's been pushed, hit, kicked, pulled at, etc...
and she absolutely loves the attention... *before anyone says anything, its
normally kids who have no coordination, and the pushes and kicks are very
minor, as these are all special needs kids who honestly don't know any
better, but their actions are corrected quickly, and the dog just loves
it... shes got tuff skin...*

most people are quite good at petting her and feeling better about her after
I explain the working dog aspect... for people with big dogs, I would highly
suggest getting involved in something like that, particularily if they love
the attention of elderly people who would love to just pet and play with
them for hours... or kids who would never have such interaction with dogs...
you'd be surprised at how many of the parents don't have pets because their
special needs child takes up so much of their time... its definitely worth
the smiles...

one boy who was on a standing wheelchair contraption who was laid back
couldn't see licorice until I did her 'stup' *standing on back legs* and her
'high five' tricks, which we would do by his bed and he would just be
laughing... *he was non verbal and not able to communicate well without
pictures* but you could see him light up when I took her there!

my son went to that school for a while, but he was more advanced so he was
moved to a life skills program instead... the year earlier with all his
problems he would have been perfect for that school, but new meds work
well...

anyways I probably digressed...

care

"Suja" wrote in message
...

Khan has a suspected UTI. So, the dogs and I went to the vet yesterday.
Coming out of the exam room, I kept them both on shortened leashes, to
minimize shock to whoever is on the outside. About 10 ft. away were two
little kids with a Min-Pin on the leash. Khan was wagging his tail, Pan
was
looking at me with that 'Can we get out of here already?' look, when the
mom, who was at the counter, started screaming at the kids to pick up the
dog. They were stunned. We were stunned. I put Khan in a down/stay and
said in my nice voice that they were dog friendly. She completely ignored
it and kept yelling at the kids to PICK UP THE DOG NOW!!!! Kids pick up
the
dog, and it starts making the most 'Woe is Me!' noises ever. Then, she
starts yelling at the kids to get the hell away from the big dogs. So, I
said in my nice voice that they were kid friendly too. She just kept
yelling at the kids to stay away from the dogs. One of the kids asked me
what kind of dogs they were, and the mom interrupted by telling them to
shut
up, not even look at the dogs and to stay the hell away from them. I
answered them politely. She paid, grabbed the dog out of the kid's hands,
and walked out as quickly as possible.

The whole time, neither I, not my dogs had moved an inch. I don't know
what
her problem was, but those kids are going to grow up to be scared of big
dogs.

Suja

"Sionnach" wrote in
:

"Suja" wrote:

I have no problems with people playing it safe. I just don't think
that her gross overreaction was warranted.

Still being Devil's advocate:

On the surface, obviously not. However, if she's had some sort of
traumatic experience in the past, she may not entirely be in control
of her reaction. Or, she may be a whack-job of some other sort, up to
and including bi-polar. Either way, she may not entirely have control
of her reactions.

they were under control, showing appropriate and friendly body
language,

But not everybody knows how to read that, even if they own dogs.

I have small dogs and I have kids. I don't want either of them to be
hurt by anything, including big dogs and I am ultra cautious. But I
would not freak out over big dogs on leashes and under the control of an
owner. I would not yell at my kids over it regardless, unless there was
some emergency. I can understand the impulse to be a devil's advocate
when you have small dogs, but this is not the case to take it up on. The
woman was over the top and would be more likely to cause an injury than
prevent one. If some experience made her that leery around big dogs, she
would be better served to have her kids come get her when it is their
turn so she could stay with the dog outside the office and away from
other dogs. Or she could enlist the staff to help her come in and go out
when there were no big dogs in her path.

The woman was being an idiot.

Paula

"Sionnach" wrote in news:50nr8dF1gg6beU1
@mid.individual.net:

No question. However, again, if she has a strong fear of big dogs -
especially if it's based in a past traumatic experience - she may not
be
able to control her reactions.

Whatever the reason for her overreaction - phobia, past traumatic
experience, or other whack-jobity - it sounds like she needs some help.

Also, phobic and post-traumatic people AVOID the things they are afraid
of when at all possible. It's not likely someone with a strong enough
issue in either area to justify her reaction would be in that waiting
room. There are too many ways to get around it to force herself into
that situation. And she would have been a nervous wreck for fear that
big dogs would show up even before they actually did.

Paula