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Ping Robin N./ anyone with knowlege about ortho issues, esp. in Dobes



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 5th 03, 03:21 PM
Sionnach
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Default Ping Robin N./ anyone with knowlege about ortho issues, esp. in Dobes


An acquaintence with a Dobe has asked me if I'm aware of any
genetic/hereditary issues in Dobes that could cause the following symptoms
in a 3-yr-old dog. I told him I hadn't a clue, but thought you might:

After exercise - running, on a dirt trail, for about an hour- the dog
appears fine*. After going home, and resting, the dog has difficulty getting
up, with the problem appearing to be with his rear end.
The owner took him to the vet; vet did a bunch of expensive bloodwork, and
so far has found nothing wrong.

*I don't entirely agree, since at the time we were talking, they had just
come off the trails, and the dog's rear action looked off to me. He was
swinging one hind leg out to the side a bit, which suggests to me that his
knee may have been bothering him.

The dog, btw, doesn't look like a particularly good specimen of the breed
to me; I think his build could best be described as "weedy". He's a tall dog
(something like 28"), with very long, thin, almost spindly legs. And the
owner has told me that in retrospect he doesn't think the breeder was all
that good- IIRC, at least two littermates of this dog have ended up in
rescue. :-P

As far as the vet: I can understand doing bloodwork to rule out Lymes
etc., but since this issue is so specific to exercise and then rest - IOW,
it sounds like the dog is getting STIFF - it seems to me that X-rays might
have been a better starting point. What do you think?


  #2  
Old October 5th 03, 03:33 PM
Tara O.
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"Sionnach" wrote in message
...

After exercise - running, on a dirt trail, for about an hour- the dog
appears fine*. After going home, and resting, the dog has difficulty

getting
up, with the problem appearing to be with his rear end.
The owner took him to the vet; vet did a bunch of expensive bloodwork,

and
so far has found nothing wrong.


I don't know about Dobes but can relate that 2 of the Boxers we've had with
hip dysplasia, still in the mild stage, had the same symptoms. They
appeared fine while playing and weren't hesitant to exercise. No limping or
stiffness appeared on the wind-down either. Only after the dogs rested did
they become stiff. X-rays are needed. The knee injuries I know of all came
on suddenly and there was an immediate favoring of the affected leg.

--
Tara


  #3  
Old October 5th 03, 04:42 PM
Robin Nuttall
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After exercise - running, on a dirt trail, for about an hour- the dog
appears fine*. After going home, and resting, the dog has difficulty

getting
up, with the problem appearing to be with his rear end.
The owner took him to the vet; vet did a bunch of expensive bloodwork,

and
so far has found nothing wrong.


I'd look at hips first. HD isn't a huge problem in dobes but there *are*
dobermans out there with it.

The other thing I'd look at, which is extremely common in the breed, is
CVI/Wobblers. It can cause a characteristic swaying and stiff legged gait in
the rear. I'm not sure it would necessarily get worse after exercise, but it
might--say he runs a lot and the neck gets irritated, so as he cools off the
nerves stop working right.

I agree with you that hip xrays and other bone stuff is what I'd look at
before anything else.




  #4  
Old October 5th 03, 04:56 PM
Sionnach
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I'd look at hips first. HD isn't a huge problem in dobes but there *are*
dobermans out there with it.


Tara (thanks Tara!) reported similar early-stage symptoms of HD, also.
Given that this dog isn't particularly well put together & it sounds like he
came from a BYB type, I suspect odds for CHD are higher than usual.



The other thing I'd look at, which is extremely common in the breed, is
CVI/Wobblers. It can cause a characteristic swaying and stiff legged gait

in
the rear.


Thanks. I did wonder about Wobblers, but don't know all that much about
it, and wasn't aware that it could manifest with rear end symptoms... and I
hate to say it, but "swaying" fits the way this dog moves- all the time, not
just after exercise. (Bear in mind I haven't seen the reported *acute*
symptoms.) It's not pronounced, but it's there. :-(


I agree with you that hip xrays and other bone stuff is what I'd look at
before anything else.


Yup. Personally, I think the vet he went to had something to do with it-
that particular hospital is *known* for jacking up bills. :-P I'm going to
ask on my agility-club list for an ortho-vet recommendation.

Sigh. I HATE this sort of thing... sweet, YOUNG dog, nice (if a bit
ignorant) owner, and I'm foreseeing pain and difficulty for both of them.
:-(
What makes this even worse is that his last Dobe, gotten from a rescue
group, had aggression problems (though I think she'd have been OK with a
different owner) and had to be put down at eight due to severe arthritis. He
went the breeder route this time because he thought he could avoid issues
with the second dog by doing so... too bad he was naive and got "taken" by
an unethical one. Argh!!


  #5  
Old October 5th 03, 05:33 PM
Robin Nuttall
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"Sionnach" wrote in message
...

I'd look at hips first. HD isn't a huge problem in dobes but there

*are*
dobermans out there with it.


Tara (thanks Tara!) reported similar early-stage symptoms of HD, also.
Given that this dog isn't particularly well put together & it sounds like

he
came from a BYB type, I suspect odds for CHD are higher than usual.



The other thing I'd look at, which is extremely common in the breed, is
CVI/Wobblers. It can cause a characteristic swaying and stiff legged

gait
in
the rear.


Thanks. I did wonder about Wobblers, but don't know all that much about
it, and wasn't aware that it could manifest with rear end symptoms... and

I
hate to say it, but "swaying" fits the way this dog moves- all the time,

not
just after exercise. (Bear in mind I haven't seen the reported *acute*
symptoms.) It's not pronounced, but it's there. :-(


Dogs with wobblers *often* start out with subtle hind end symptoms. They
walk with a swaying gait, swinging their legs out to the side rather than
picking them up and placing them back down directly in front. They also tend
to stumble and fall fairly often--wiping out as it were. Sometimes they yelp
out of the blue for no apparent reason.

One good way to test how the hind limbs are doing neurologically is to
stand the dog and flip a back foot upside down, so that the tops of the toes
are touching the floor instead of the pad. Dogs should flip that foot back
over very quickly after you let go. Leaving it upside down can mean they
aren't getting quick signals to the brain. Or it could mean the dog is so
insensitized to their owners doing weird things with their feet that they
are willing to put up with it for awhile. In one of my dogs, it was
startling. Not only would she not right it, but the foot would start to
slide backwards, on the tops of the toes.



Sigh. I HATE this sort of thing... sweet, YOUNG dog, nice (if a bit
ignorant) owner, and I'm foreseeing pain and difficulty for both of them.
:-(


Yes, it sucks. And dobes, more than some breeds, are just not good to get
from ignorant people. Cause stuff like this happens a lot in this breed.



  #6  
Old October 5th 03, 05:49 PM
Sionnach
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Dogs with wobblers *often* start out with subtle hind end symptoms. They
walk with a swaying gait, swinging their legs out to the side rather than
picking them up and placing them back down directly in front.


That's *exactly* what Zeus does. When his owner was talking to me on
Friday- we were walking around the footpath at the park- I noticed that it
was more pronounced on the right rear than usual.
It's not very obvious unless you're *looking* for it, but it's there.

They also tend
to stumble and fall fairly often--wiping out as it were. Sometimes they

yelp
out of the blue for no apparent reason.


Hmm. Haven't noticed that, but I'll ask the owner.

snipped good description of handy way to check hind legs

Yes, it sucks. And dobes, more than some breeds, are just not good to get
from ignorant people. Cause stuff like this happens a lot in this breed.



Yep. I tried to give him a bit of advice about finding a good breeder when
he was puppy hunting, but I don't think it sank in... he was in a bit of a
hurry, I think.

That's not as annoying, though, as the Golden owner of my acquaintance
whose first dog has severe HD, and needed expensive surgery at very young
age. She went out and bought another puppy a few years later... when I asked
her if the parents of this one had been screened for CHD, she replied
"They're going to get the mother tested, but she's too young yet."
My jaw literally dropped on *that* one...sometimes I just want to shake
someone silly and yell "WHAT were you THINKING!!??".


  #7  
Old October 5th 03, 06:21 PM
Robin Nuttall
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"Sionnach" wrote in message
...



That's not as annoying, though, as the Golden owner of my acquaintance
whose first dog has severe HD, and needed expensive surgery at very young
age. She went out and bought another puppy a few years later... when I

asked
her if the parents of this one had been screened for CHD, she replied
"They're going to get the mother tested, but she's too young yet."
My jaw literally dropped on *that* one...sometimes I just want to shake
someone silly and yell "WHAT were you THINKING!!??".


People can be just incredibly stupid. They meet a person and decide, in 15
minutes of conversation, that they must be completely ethical and above
board, and of *course* nothing could be wrong with the puppies, etc. It's
ludicrous.



  #8  
Old October 6th 03, 11:01 AM
Chris Jung
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"Robin Nuttall" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

The other thing I'd look at, which is extremely common in the breed,

is
CVI/Wobblers. It can cause a characteristic swaying and stiff legged

gait
in
the rear.



Robin
Way back in the mid 90s, I read a fascinating article about a treatment for
wobblers in TB horses. The researchers found that if they slowed the growth
WAY down, that the neck bones were able to remodel into the correct shape
and the neurological problems went away. The treatment was to put the young
horse affected with wobblers on a highly restricted diet and extreme
restricted activity. Colts that showed definitive signs of severe
neurological deficits, became normal after treatment, went onto race and do
well. The big minus to the treatment was that it bordered on cruel - the
diet was just above starvation level and the colts/fillies were isolated in
stalls for months. When the treatment ended they were sticks and bones and
way behind their counterparts in size, social development and muscle.
Fortunately horses can catch up and as I said before they went on to have
normal lives. The article did say the treatment had to start as soon as
the first symptoms were apparent. In these cases, they were very young
colts/fillies, mostly weanlings and yearlings. To show symptoms as such a
young age meant their wobblers was really severe so it was remarkable that
this treatment was able to totally reverse the problem.

So has anyone done this type of treatment for young Dobermans affected with
Wobblers and did it work?

Chris, her two lovely smoothies and one visiting Golden Retriever puppy,
Zeffie, Pablo and Nicky-Nack


  #9  
Old October 6th 03, 01:10 PM
Robin Nuttall
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"Chris Jung" wrote in message
...


Robin
Way back in the mid 90s, I read a fascinating article about a treatment

for
wobblers in TB horses. The researchers found that if they slowed the

growth
WAY down, that the neck bones were able to remodel into the correct shape
and the neurological problems went away. The treatment was to put the

young
horse affected with wobblers on a highly restricted diet and extreme
restricted activity.


Doberman CVI is different than that found in horses and in Great Danes. In
those animals, it seems to be a disease of growth--growing too fast in too
short a time. In Dobermans, CVI doesn't show up until middle/late age,
usually 7 and up (though it can be sooner, and my Dreamer was diagnosed at
2). It definitely has a genetic component, but it's still a complete mystery
as to why it happens. All puppies should be fed sensibly in order to grow at
a normal, not accelearated, rate, but unfortunately growth rate seems
unrelated to our type of CVI.



 




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