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Melamine is a diuretic (attn Suja)



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 26th 07, 12:33 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
FurPaw
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Posts: 1,469
Default Melamine is a diuretic (attn Suja)

This from a chemist writing for about.com:
http://chemistry.about.com/b/a/257722.htm
"Melamine normally is not considered a toxic ingredient, but the
concentration in the gluten may be sufficiently high to cause the
formation of crystals in kidney tubules."

And she says this about LOW DOSES OF MELAMINE [caps are mine]:
"In lower doses, MELAMINE ACTS AS A DIURETIC, SO I WOULD SAY
INCREASED THIRST AND URINATION WOULD BE LIKELY INITIAL SYMPTOMS."

And this from 1944 (!!!):
"Melamine, adenine sulfate and formoguanamine, which by the rat
assay method were found to be POTENT DIURETICS, proved to be
active also on the dog."
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/co...tract/83/4/235

OH. MY. Oppie went through a period last fall (starting before
the recall period, but just) with high water intake and extremely
low urine specific gravity. No other problems were found. It
could also have been due to hypertension (but what caused the
hypertension?). He is currently taking Benazeprel, his BP and
urine specific gravity were both normal today - AND HE IS NOW
EATING CANIDAE, NOT IAMS or NUTRO kibble like he was up until the
pet food contamination news broke. No way to tell what caused
what, of course...

I can't find anything suggesting a link between melamine and
hypertension, but it's got me to wondering...

FurPaw

--
My family values don't involve depleted uranium.

To reply, unleash the dog.
  #2  
Old April 26th 07, 04:48 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
buglady
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Posts: 863
Default Melamine is a diuretic (attn Suja)

"FurPaw" wrote in message
. ..
This from a chemist writing for about.com:
http://chemistry.about.com/b/a/257722.htm
"Melamine normally is not considered a toxic ingredient, but the
concentration in the gluten may be sufficiently high to cause the
formation of crystals in kidney tubules."


.......I've spent more than a couple of days on the chemistry, but I'd
probably have to bury myself with chem books and it still may be over my
head, plus you'd need to know physiology of cats and dogs. It's really
buggin me though. And I haven't finished looking at cyanuric acid for
toxicity/side effects.
1. Melamine found in wheat gluten, urinary crystals of victims, in pigs
(don't remember what part - blood?)
2. Necropsies showed amilorine, amiloride and cyanuric acid
3. Cyanuric acid found in RCP
4.. Aminopterin also found in pet food - which I do not believe was a false
finding.
5. Acid hydrolysis of melamine yields ammeline, ammedlide and cyanuric
acid. There are some bacteria with a special enzyme that can also break
down melamine into these 3 components.


The crucial question is if any of the acid hydrolysis products can be
metabolized to amilorine and amiloride in the body. Amiloride is a
potassium sparing diuretic drug commonly called Midamor. The warnings are
not to give it to patients with already compromised kidney function.
There's virtually nothing about amilorine on the net, though I found some
reference to some kind of parasites with amilorine channels.

This is a long document with a lot of rat toxicity tests with relevant
references at the end. There's interesting stuff about the environment
also, plus some stuff on how it affects plants - it happens to curb root
growth slightly on wheat. Oh, and watch that OJ and coffee in a plastic
melamine cup.
Type of measurement:Migration of melamine into food.
Year: 1987.
Results: Acidic food (pH 2-5) is able to release traces of melamin from
compression
moulds made of melamine-formaldehyde resin after prolonged exposure (30
min) at high temperature (95 °C). 0.54 to 2.21 mg melamine / kg food were
found in lemon and orange juice, in coffee and curdled milk under the
described conditions.

CAS OECD UNEP document 1998
www.inchem.org/documents/sids/sids/108781.pdf
Melamine is a weak base. It is neutral in the pH range of 6 to 13. The
cation C3N3H+(NH2)3 is present in the pH range 1 to 4. (I haven't thought
about this yet, though that's certainly in the range of stomach acid. But
why do they say then that most melamine goes through body unchanged?)
Purity 99.8 % w/w
Impurities: Melem: max. 0.06 %
Ash: max. 0.01 %
Source: Agrolinz Melamin GmbH, Austria
Impurities Ammelin, ammelid, cyanuric acid: 0.1 %

(From another document common impurities in melamine production are
Ammelide, Ammeline, Uredio, Melem, Melam). The original Cornell report said
they didn't find any of the expected by products only melamine. As I said I
haven't gotten to cyanuric acid yet, but there is a flame retardant product
called melamine cyanurate.

OK this is one rat study. Everyone looked at the over all toxicity of
melamine, but when I saw this I really started to wonder. The only thing
that was different about this study and almost all the rest is that this
melamine had 3% impurities, which is really pretty high - a cr*ppy product.
p 58-9 acrobat (p. 167-8 document)
5.4 Repeated Dose Toxicity
5.4.1 Repeated Oral Dose Toxicity with Rats
Species: rat
Sex: male/female
Strain: Fischer 344
Route of admin.: oral feed
Exposure period: 14 days
Frequency of treatment: continuously
Post. obs. period: none
Doses: 5000; 10000; 15000; 20000; 30000 ppm (417-2500 mg/kg)
Control Group: concurrent, no treatment
NOAEL: 5000 ppm
Method:
Year: 1983
GLP: NTP-Standard
Test substance: ca. 3 % impurities.
Remark: NOEL: 5000 ppm (m); 10000 ppm (f)
Result: All animals survived to the end of the dosing period. All female and
male rats
receiving 15000 ppm and more had mean body weight gain depressions when
compared to the controls. Male and female rats receiving 20000 or 30000
ppm melamine lost weight. Hard crystalline solids were found in the urinary
bladder of 4/5 to 5/5 male rats in groups fed 10000 ppm or more and 4/5
female rats in groups fed 20000 ppm or more. The kidneys of 2 males in the
high dose group were pale and pitted. Apart from urinary tract no
compound-related
effects were observed in other organs.
Source: ( 97 )

10000 ppm is 1%. High dose is 2%. Didn't they say the wheat gluten had up
to 6% melamine?

AMILORIDE
http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/pharm/pim026.htm
6.3 Biological half-life by route of exposure Based on limited data, the
elimination half-life is
reportedly 6 to 9 hours. In patients with reduced renal function (creatinine
clearance ranging between 5 to 46 mL/minute), the half-life is prolonged
from 21 to 144 hours.
Metabolism - Amiloride does not appear to be significantly metabolized.

The above is for people. Who knows how this would be changed specifically
in cats, though any cats with unrecognized kidney problems would get
repeated doses with food when the original dose had not yet cleared the
system. Cats don't have a big drive to drink, even when they're thirsty. I
just can't imagine why this is still such a mystery. One needs to know how
they make amiloride and what the heck amilorine is. If the body can't make
it, then it came with the melamine. If it came with the melamine, I think
they put floor melamine sweepings from the melamine factory in the wheat
gluten. That would account for aminopterin too. Below is a ref where they
sort of turn the melamine into a Bucky Ball and put chemotheraphy agents (
daunorubicin ) in the middle. I'm sure I saw a ref talking about
melamine+aminopterin.

Macromol Biosci. 2005 Dec 15;5(12):1209-19.
Multilayer microcapsules as anti-cancer drug delivery vehicle: deposition,
Sustained release, and in vitro bioactivity.
* Liu X,* Gao C,* Shen J,* Mohwald H.
Department of Polymer Science and Engineering, Zhejiang University, Hangzhou
310027, China.
A drug delivery system based on spontaneous deposition of soluble,
low-molecular-weight therapeutic agents has been developed for the purpose
of sustaining drug release. Layer-by-layer assembly of oppositely charged
polyelectrolytes onto melamine formaldehyde (MF) colloidal particles,
followed by removal of the cores at low pH has yielded intact hollow
microcapsules having the ability to induce deposition of various
water-soluble substances.[..]
PMID: 16307433 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

buglady
take out the dog before replying


  #3  
Old April 26th 07, 12:25 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
flick
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Posts: 568
Default Melamine is a diuretic (attn Suja)

"buglady" wrote in message
k.net...

snipped

OK this is one rat study. Everyone looked at the over all toxicity of
melamine, but when I saw this I really started to wonder. The only thing
that was different about this study and almost all the rest is that this
melamine had 3% impurities, which is really pretty high - a cr*ppy
product.
p 58-9 acrobat (p. 167-8 document)
5.4 Repeated Dose Toxicity
5.4.1 Repeated Oral Dose Toxicity with Rats
Species: rat
Sex: male/female
Strain: Fischer 344
Route of admin.: oral feed
Exposure period: 14 days
Frequency of treatment: continuously
Post. obs. period: none
Doses: 5000; 10000; 15000; 20000; 30000 ppm (417-2500 mg/kg)
Control Group: concurrent, no treatment
NOAEL: 5000 ppm
Method:
Year: 1983
GLP: NTP-Standard
Test substance: ca. 3 % impurities.
Remark: NOEL: 5000 ppm (m); 10000 ppm (f)
Result: All animals survived to the end of the dosing period. All female
and
male rats
receiving 15000 ppm and more had mean body weight gain depressions when
compared to the controls. Male and female rats receiving 20000 or 30000
ppm melamine lost weight. Hard crystalline solids were found in the
urinary
bladder of 4/5 to 5/5 male rats in groups fed 10000 ppm or more and 4/5
female rats in groups fed 20000 ppm or more. The kidneys of 2 males in the
high dose group were pale and pitted. Apart from urinary tract no
compound-related
effects were observed in other organs.
Source: ( 97 )

10000 ppm is 1%. High dose is 2%. Didn't they say the wheat gluten had
up
to 6% melamine?


What would the 6% melamine in wheat gluten have translated to
percentage-wise once it was in the dog food? How much wheat gluten was in
the dog food? Seems like melamine wouldn't have been higher than 1-2%, and
possibly (probably?) much lower.

Which, of course, doesn't mean it isn't harmful at that dose, for dogs.

flick 100785


  #4  
Old April 26th 07, 02:26 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
buglady
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Posts: 863
Default Melamine is a diuretic (attn Suja)


"flick" wrote in message
...

What would the 6% melamine in wheat gluten have translated to
percentage-wise once it was in the dog food? How much wheat gluten was in
the dog food? Seems like melamine wouldn't have been higher than 1-2%,

and
possibly (probably?) much lower.


.........I don't know. This has been one of my theories all along - floor
sweepings. Apparently *scrap melamine* is an actual product on the market.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/dail.../s_504466.html
Sundlof described the contamination as "a mixture of waste products of
chemical manufacturing."

The other theory is much darker and involves antibiotic resistant bacteria
which dine on melamine........ugh....really don't want to go there.

buglady
take out the dog before replying


  #5  
Old April 26th 07, 04:14 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Suja
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Posts: 2,483
Default Melamine is a diuretic (attn Suja)


"FurPaw" wrote in message:

And she says this about LOW DOSES OF MELAMINE [caps are mine]:
"In lower doses, MELAMINE ACTS AS A DIURETIC, SO I WOULD SAY
INCREASED THIRST AND URINATION WOULD BE LIKELY INITIAL SYMPTOMS."


Thanks! Khan's on Solid Gold Wolf King, which doesn't have any glutens of
any sort, and is not part of the recall. Hopefully, there isn't something
else in there that will be recalled 6 months down the road.

We did get his BP checked, and at the vet's office, it was 140. She said
that it's probably 120 at home, very much normal. As it turns out, taking
the blood pressure on a hairy dog is easier said than done. She started
with a big cuff that was the right size for him, but couldn't get his veins
to occlude. Went one step lower, same deal. We eventually ended up with a
size 4 (thereby confirming my theory that there is a poodle under all that
hair), before she decided that it's utterly ridiculous, and shaved him.
Poor dog looks like he's been nibbled at by a couple of mice. When he goes
in for his ultrasound, he's going to have his belly shaved, and a spot or
two on his sides as well. I'm considering changing his name to 'Patches'.

Back to the dog food. Solid Gold is starting to **** me off, and I'm
considering switching. No response to my email, and getting the run around
when I tried to contact them by phone.

Suja


  #6  
Old April 26th 07, 04:16 PM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Shelly
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Posts: 3,103
Default Melamine is a diuretic (attn Suja)

Suja wrote:

I'm considering changing his name to 'Patches'.


I'd like to make a write-in vote for (Rag-a-)Muffin.

Back to the dog food. Solid Gold is starting to **** me off, and I'm
considering switching. No response to my email, and getting the run around
when I tried to contact them by phone.


I imagine they and every other dog food company in the country are
sort of swamped, but still, I'd not appreciate being ignored.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
  #7  
Old April 27th 07, 01:54 AM posted to rec.pets.dogs.health
Lynne
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Posts: 2,609
Default Melamine is a diuretic (attn Suja)

on Thu, 26 Apr 2007 03:48:15 GMT, "buglady"
wrote:

4.. Aminopterin also found in pet food - which I do not believe was a
false finding.


Neither does the lab that found it or another lab that confirmed it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/30/us...1177732800&en=
4118f9f0e28ac57b&ei=5070

(dated March 30)

"Jessica A Chittenden, a spokeswoman for the New York State Department of
Agriculture and Markets, said “We don’t think this is the final
conclusion. Melamine is not a known toxin. There’s not enough data to
show that it is toxic to cats.”

She added: “We are confident we found Aminopterin, and it makes sense
with the pathology.” She also said another laboratory, Animal Health
Laboratory at the University of Guelph in Canada, had confirmed the
presence of Aminopterin in the samples."

--
Lynne


"We are strong enough to stand tall tearlessly
We are brave enough to bend to cry
And sad enough to know
We must laugh again"

~ Nikki Giovanni, 4/17/2007, Virginia Tech
 




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